ALI VS. TYSON

[cultus]

3.) Was Tyson 24 years old, 37-0-0, & in his prime when he got KTFO'd by Douglas...and then NEVER again won a meaningful fight the rest of his career?

3. no... and Douglas fight wasn't meningful at all .. he didn't prepeare for it ... and most of his corner wasn't even there. They pulled a darn condom to medicate his face.

Here's a little 'education' that you asked for...
That was a heavyweight championship fight...and the heavyweight champion was Tyson...it was VERY meaningful...or 'meningful' as you put it...If 'he didn't prepare for it', that's HIS OWN DAMN FAULT AND A TERRIBLE REFLECTION ON HIM AND HIS PATHETIC WORK ETHIC...AND TYSON WAS THE MAN WHO HIRED HIS CORNER PEOPLE AND SECONDS, THEY DIDN'T JUST WANDER IN OFF THE STREET...if they were incompetent, that reflects back to the man who hired them...so he's totally responsible for the outcome of that fight...he's also totally responsible for the fact that every time things weren't going his way in ANY prizefight he ever fought, he became completely unraveled...and lost...


...the mark of a real champion...

English is my third language .. ok .. not gonna apologiza for that.

When Tyson fought Douglas his mind wasn't there anymore and it has been like that ever since. When you don't wanna fight you lose.. simple. And cornerman were hired by TYson?.. they were all Don king's greasemonkeys. After Spinks fight he told to the press that he would probably quit and subconsciously he did. It's defeneyely his own fault but before that ... he was great. And absolut bullshit when people say that noone really fought him back then. And never did I say that Buster was better than Ali :P .. heh...

[Sweet Scientist]

So...'Frazier wasn't fast or powerful'...You're 'surprised' about Ali, Frazier & Foreman's lack of skill...You think Tyson would beat Ali because 'Ali didn't have the chin to last'...

Five questions for you:

1.) Did Buster Douglas have a better chin than Ali?
2.) Was he more talented than Frazier, Foreman, Ali & Norton?
3.) Was Tyson 24 years old, 37-0-0, & in his prime when he got KTFO'd by Douglas...and then NEVER again won a meaningful fight the rest of his career?
4.) Do you think you are a good judge of boxing talent?
5.) When is your next psychiatric appointment?

your being like a baby here.

but ok il answer them:

1. Buster Douglas beat untrained mental case Mike... Buster did also the best fight in his life in that night..
2. yes he was
3. no... and Douglas fight wasn't meningful at all .. he didn't prepeare for it ... and most of his corner wasn't even there. They pulled a darn condom to medicate his face. Razor was the last meaningfull...
4. I see what I see... and I know enaugh to make up my mind.
5. you see... your so both... think outside the box... it's not unthinkable that maybe Ali wasn't the best. I think Lennox would have killed him. And Forman was always so open to everything.. specialy the overhand right... just clumsy and easy to hit.

Your answer to #2..."yes he was"...the question was, 'Was he (Douglas) more talented than Frazier, Foreman, Ali & Norton...AGAIN...your answer was "yes he was"...You can't deny it...it's your post...WTF???

[Sweet Scientist]

And never did I say that Buster was better than Ali :P .. heh...

You certainly did, see post above this one...

[cultus]

And never did I say that Buster was better than Ali :P .. heh...

You certainly did, see post above this one...

don't bitch...

[nazfan]

ali would have beaten tyson hands down. he would have beaten them all. i think people are confused about ali in his prime. it wasnt when he beat foreman et al. it was b4 they banned him. he was unstoppable.

[nazfan]

there is no denying that for whatever reasons, tyson lost to a bum called douglas in his prime. yes, IN HIS PRIME. ali had problems too but never lost to no second rate bum. tyson lost by ko too. he was ko'd so often it is unbelievable. dont forget the first three rounds of ther holmes fight when he was schooled. imagine what a prime larry holmes would have done to him. then imagine a prime ali, twice as fast as holmes with hands and feet.

[cultus]

twice as fast as holmes with hands and feet.

twice as fast?.. you must be kiddin. Holmes hands were as quick as Ali's. And when did Holmes school Tyson, just dont remember... was it when he ran from him the entire 3 rounds and got cut down.

nobody before or after got KO wins over Holmes. Ok he trained only two month-s and was inactive but Tyson really won the way he was suppose to. If the fight would have gone on the same way 12 rounds, Tyson would have won big on the scorecards.

[thunderfromdownunder]

The way to beat Ali was pressure; Chuvalo troubled him but didn't have the weaponry to carry the day(s). Frazier did and there are three things worth noting about him: one, he was essentially one armed, doing very little with his right. All he threw was left hooks for all intents. Second, Frazier was a very overrated puncher. Which is not to say he didn"t hit hard: he did, but he needed to keep them coming. Third, he was not much of a defensive fighter. Given those limitations he stayed right on Ali and gave him hell, flooring him once and hurting him several times throughout their trilogy. Prime Tyson was much faster than Frazier, in terms of hand, foot and every other type of speed a fighter can have. His hands were nearly as fast as Ali"s as was his footspeed. He was a much harder puncher than Frazier, a legit one punch threat with any punch in his arsenal He cut the ring better than Frazier; remember that move when he'd slid his right foot forward and right to cut off an opponent, in position to throw the right hook/right uppercut combo. Much harder to hit than Frazier, he'd get under ali"s punches and hit him. Prime Tyson would KO any Ali I ever saw fight within 7. (excluding the Wepner push every time Ali went down it was from a hook as he pulled straight back. Bad against tyson) Easy fight for mike, who would lose in 2-4 against Louis, who would drop a UD12 to Ali.

there are hardly any fighters who ever lived, probaly none actually who could pressure Ali for 15 rounds without getting really messed up, joe frazier being the exeption

[Sweet Scientist]

The way to beat Ali was pressure; Chuvalo troubled him but didn't have the weaponry to carry the day(s). Frazier did and there are three things worth noting about him: one, he was essentially one armed, doing very little with his right. All he threw was left hooks for all intents. Second, Frazier was a very overrated puncher. Which is not to say he didn"t hit hard: he did, but he needed to keep them coming. Third, he was not much of a defensive fighter. Given those limitations he stayed right on Ali and gave him hell, flooring him once and hurting him several times throughout their trilogy. Prime Tyson was much faster than Frazier, in terms of hand, foot and every other type of speed a fighter can have. His hands were nearly as fast as Ali"s as was his footspeed. He was a much harder puncher than Frazier, a legit one punch threat with any punch in his arsenal He cut the ring better than Frazier; remember that move when he'd slid his right foot forward and right to cut off an opponent, in position to throw the right hook/right uppercut combo. Much harder to hit than Frazier, he'd get under ali"s punches and hit him. Prime Tyson would KO any Ali I ever saw fight within 7. (excluding the Wepner push every time Ali went down it was from a hook as he pulled straight back. Bad against tyson) Easy fight for mike, who would lose in 2-4 against Louis, who would drop a UD12 to Ali.

there are hardly any fighters who ever lived, probaly none actually who could pressure Ali for 15 rounds without getting really messed up, joe frazier being the exeption

Joe Frazier got 'messed up' too...see the pictures in Sports Illustrated the week after the 3/8/71 fight...and that was after a 3 1/2 year layoff with Ali's diminished reflexes and legs...Joe Frazier, though, was at his absolute peak...and he never reached that peak again after that fight...Frazier was 'softened up' a little after that fight, which is why he ducked Ali for over 2 years after it...Joe Frazier was no fool...he knew there was pain involved when you fought Ali...even after his prime...Joe Frazier was in and out of the Hospital after that 1st fight too..I remember rumors about Frazier retiring after that 1st fight...Frazier took a beating the same as Ali, he just managed to win 3 more rounds and the fight...

[Sweet Scientist]

twice as fast as holmes with hands and feet.

twice as fast?.. you must be kiddin. Holmes hands were as quick as Ali's.

Holmes' hands were not as quick as Ali's, not the 1966-67 Ali, no way in hell...Holmes' defense wasn't as good as Ali's either...Holmes was a more technically sound boxer, however...it's just that when you're as fast as Ali (hands, feet, & reflexes)...you can get away with shit like keeping your hands low, using your speed to pull back from punches, etc. Speed is the difference...Holmes wasn't slow, but Ali (especially feet) was in a different zip code (in the '60's)...

[Sweet Scientist]

And when did Holmes school Tyson, just dont remember...

Do you remember what Tyson said in the post fight interview after the Holmes bout...'If he was still in his prime, I wouldn't have stood a chance'...Tyson wasn't lying!

[Hesketh Vampire]

Do you remember what Tyson said in the post fight interview after the Holmes bout...'If he was still in his prime, I wouldn't have stood a chance'...Tyson wasn't lying!

And do you remember what Holmes said in a pre-fight interview?

"I'm going down in history, Mike Tyson's just an S.O.B. Even if he do win the fight, somewhere down he line he's going to destroy himself".

And Holmes wasn't wrong either.

[Sweet Scientist]

there is no denying that for whatever reasons, tyson lost to a bum called douglas in his prime. yes, IN HIS PRIME.

And...AND...He NEVER won a meaningful fight after that...(unless it was in cell block C)

No great fighter's prime ends at 24...you should be just entering your best years at 24, if you started young like Tyson...How can anyone say the guy rates among the elite?...he self destructed, came completely unraveled...I don't deny he had great talent and potential, but squandered talent and unfulfilled potential don't get you a place in the all time top ten...sorry...

When you talk about the flaws of other fighters, you do so in opinionated theory...you don't need theory to see Tyson's flaws...just watch the Douglas fight & the 2 Holyfield fights...other examples available upon request...

[KOJOE90]

I appreciate all the education. But still it seemed to me that all the opposition Ali fought was very inferior to Ali himselfe (most of them were very easy to hit or didn't hold much power)..

"didn't hold much power"?????? I cannot agree with that I am afraid.

Ali fought Big Cat Williams, Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Ron Lyle and Earnie Shavers all of whom were feared punches with dynamite in their fists.

Infact all 6 of these heavyhitting Heavyweights would be in most Boxing fans top dozen Heavyweight punchers of ALL TIME.

[cultus]

I appreciate all the education. But still it seemed to me that all the opposition Ali fought was very inferior to Ali himselfe (most of them were very easy to hit or didn't hold much power)..

"didn't hold much power"?????? I cannot agree with that I am afraid.

Ali fought Big Cat Williams, Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Ron Lyle and Earnie Shavers all of whom were feared punches with dynamite in their fists.

Infact all 6 of these heavyhitting Heavyweights would be in most Boxing fans top dozen Heavyweight punchers of ALL TIME.

I said most of them were very easy to hit !!OR!! didn't hold much power .. as far as I have seen. It's strange that you mention Lyle cose I just finished watching Forman vs Lyle and this was indeed ugly(exciting though) but ugly performance by both fighters. Ok Forman was rusty but still .. grazy. I see clearly how Ali could bust up fighters of that era if they all fought thisway. One comic said once that Ali was the only boxer who moved his butt in these days and it's true They might have been great punchers but they all lacked motion. And I don't get why Liston makes top 10, he was champion like 5 seconds. LIston get's in and TYson don't??

[cultus]

there is no denying that for whatever reasons, tyson lost to a bum called douglas in his prime. yes, IN HIS PRIME.

And...AND...He NEVER won a meaningful fight after that...(unless it was in cell block C)

No great fighter's prime ends at 24...you should be just entering your best years at 24, if you started young like Tyson...How can anyone say the guy rates among the elite?...he self destructed, came completely unraveled...I don't deny he had great talent and potential, but squandered talent and unfulfilled potential don't get you a place in the all time top ten...sorry...

When you talk about the flaws of other fighters, you do so in opinionated theory...you don't need theory to see Tyson's flaws...just watch the Douglas fight & the 2 Holyfield fights...other examples available upon request...

How many Tyson fights have you seen.. I think that you'v only seen the Douglas and then after the jail all these other fights that he had to do cose he needed to Buy food for King's children.
Look!.. if you would have seen Tyson before Douglas you wouldn't bring that up as a solid proof. So take a peek. And as 24 he's been pro allready 6 years and had 39 something fights .. Even Frazier never fought so many times and he had some 10 year pro career.

[cultus]

Do you remember what Tyson said in the post fight interview after the Holmes bout...'If he was still in his prime, I wouldn't have stood a chance'...Tyson wasn't lying!

And do you remember what Holmes said in a pre-fight interview?

"I'm going down in history, Mike Tyson's just an S.O.B. Even if he do win the fight, somewhere down he line he's going to destroy himself".

And Holmes wasn't wrong either.

He was ko-d and chop down inside 4 rounds.. whatever he said ... there was nothin else to say. Holmes knew he would lose. He just went there for a payday. In these days he was just a bitter old man. But in his prime.. it would have been a great fight...

[Sweet Scientist]

Do you remember what Tyson said in the post fight interview after the Holmes bout...'If he was still in his prime, I wouldn't have stood a chance'...Tyson wasn't lying!

And do you remember what Holmes said in a pre-fight interview?

"I'm going down in history, Mike Tyson's just an S.O.B. Even if he do win the fight, somewhere down he line he's going to destroy himself".

And Holmes wasn't wrong either.

He was ko-d and chop down inside 4 rounds.. whatever he said ... there was nothin else to say. Holmes knew he would lose. He just went there for a payday. In these days he was just a bitter old man. But in his prime.. it would have been a great fight...

He was 38 years old and hadn't fought in over 2 years...
Doesn't that tell you something???
Buster Douglas wasn't 38 years old though...what happened in that fight???
Larry Holmes, in his prime, was sooooooo far beyond Buster Douglas...light years beyond...Buster was really a one fight wonder...and in his one memorable fight, Tyson was KTFO'd...and he (Tyson) never came back from that defeat

You sure do have some strange ideas....very strange...

Tyson couldn't cope with adversity...lost every single time he ran into it. Things don't always go as planned, sometimes you have to be able to think on your feet, to change strategy, to hang in there when things aren't going right...Tyson would rather bite an ear off...what a pathetic waste of talent and lack of self control...what a pathetic human being...

[Sweet Scientist]

And never did I say that Buster was better than Ali :P .. heh...

You certainly did, see post above this one...

don't bitch...

OK...I won't 'bitch'...but only an asshole would say Buster Douglas was better than Ali...you have some very strange ideas, indeed...

[Max Molyneux]

Of course a prime ali would dominant Tyson.

He dominanted Cooper, Jones and Frazier so well, didnt he?

Actually, he beat Jones pretty clearly . . 6-3-1 on my card.

But that's a bad argument . . .Ali got up against Cooper to win the bout . . a prime Tyson got destroyed by Douglas and never got up.

In the first Ali and Cooper fight Cooper knocked him down and they cut Ali's gloves to give Ali time to recover too!

[cultus]

You certainly did, see post above this one...

don't bitch...

OK...I won't 'bitch'...but only an asshole would say Buster Douglas was better than Ali...you have some very strange ideas, indeed...

I din't say that Douglas was better than ALI where did you read this?? :)

[Grimm]

The way to beat Ali was pressure; Chuvalo troubled him but didn't have the weaponry to carry the day(s). Frazier did and there are three things worth noting about him: one, he was essentially one armed, doing very little with his right. All he threw was left hooks for all intents. Second, Frazier was a very overrated puncher. Which is not to say he didn"t hit hard: he did, but he needed to keep them coming. Third, he was not much of a defensive fighter. Given those limitations he stayed right on Ali and gave him hell, flooring him once and hurting him several times throughout their trilogy. Prime Tyson was much faster than Frazier, in terms of hand, foot and every other type of speed a fighter can have. His hands were nearly as fast as Ali"s as was his footspeed. He was a much harder puncher than Frazier, a legit one punch threat with any punch in his arsenal He cut the ring better than Frazier; remember that move when he'd slid his right foot forward and right to cut off an opponent, in position to throw the right hook/right uppercut combo. Much harder to hit than Frazier, he'd get under ali"s punches and hit him. Prime Tyson would KO any Ali I ever saw fight within 7. (excluding the Wepner push every time Ali went down it was from a hook as he pulled straight back. Bad against tyson) Easy fight for mike, who would lose in 2-4 against Louis, who would drop a UD12 to Ali.

there are hardly any fighters who ever lived, probaly none actually who could pressure Ali for 15 rounds without getting really messed up, joe frazier being the exeption

Joe Frazier got 'messed up' too...see the pictures in Sports Illustrated the week after the 3/8/71 fight...and that was after a 3 1/2 year layoff with Ali's diminished reflexes and legs...Joe Frazier, though, was at his absolute peak...and he never reached that peak again after that fight...Frazier was 'softened up' a little after that fight, which is why he ducked Ali for over 2 years after it...Joe Frazier was no fool...he knew there was pain involved when you fought Ali...even after his prime...Joe Frazier was in and out of the Hospital after that 1st fight too..I remember rumors about Frazier retiring after that 1st fight...Frazier took a beating the same as Ali, he just managed to win 3 more rounds and the fight...

Joe Frazier was not in and out of the hospital because of Ali, Joe Frazier was in and out of the hospital before and after he fought Ali because he had high blood pressure.

[Sweet Scientist]

don't bitch...

OK...I won't 'bitch'...but only an asshole would say Buster Douglas was better than Ali...you have some very strange ideas, indeed...

I din't say that Douglas was better than ALI where did you read this?? :)

The 2nd of 5 questions I asked you to answer a few posts up...Can you read???

[Sweet Scientist]

there are hardly any fighters who ever lived, probaly none actually who could pressure Ali for 15 rounds without getting really messed up, joe frazier being the exeption

Joe Frazier got 'messed up' too...see the pictures in Sports Illustrated the week after the 3/8/71 fight...and that was after a 3 1/2 year layoff with Ali's diminished reflexes and legs...Joe Frazier, though, was at his absolute peak...and he never reached that peak again after that fight...Frazier was 'softened up' a little after that fight, which is why he ducked Ali for over 2 years after it...Joe Frazier was no fool...he knew there was pain involved when you fought Ali...even after his prime...Joe Frazier was in and out of the Hospital after that 1st fight too..I remember rumors about Frazier retiring after that 1st fight...Frazier took a beating the same as Ali, he just managed to win 3 more rounds and the fight...

Joe Frazier was not in and out of the hospital because of Ali, Joe Frazier was in and out of the hospital before and after he fought Ali because he had high blood pressure.

Joe Frazier absolutely, positively was in the hospital because of Ali after their 1st fight...I vividly remember that...there were rumors about a retached retina (which proved untrue), dizzy spells, etc. Have you seen pictures of Fraziers' face after that 1st fight? (see Sports Illustrated the week after the fight...Frazier was very camera shy after that fight, but the SI pictures were shot before he left the ring.) You're going to tell me he didn't get 'messed up'? Frazier took a lot of punishment in that fight...and never fought at the same level again the rest of his career...you'll notice who won both rematches...you'll notice that Frazier ducked the rematch for years...ultimately taking on a young underdog he thought he would easily beat (Foreman)...Frazier peaked on 3/8/71...I'll give him tons of credit for that fight...but he did get 'messed up' and wound up in the hospital, in and out for a while...the blood pressure thing could have been an excuse because he was in denial...didn't want to admit that Ali was responsible...they weren't exactly buddies back then...

[mrbassie]

Of course a prime ali would dominant Tyson.

He dominanted Cooper, Jones and Frazier so well, didnt he?

Actually, he beat Jones pretty clearly . . 6-3-1 on my card.

But that's a bad argument . . .Ali got up against Cooper to win the bout . . a prime Tyson got destroyed by Douglas and never got up.

In the first Ali and Cooper fight Cooper knocked him down and they cut Ali's gloves to give Ali time to recover too!

That's a myth