BoxRec

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

The Great John L wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Weaver rocked him in, I believe, the 12th too. Not granite chinned, but certainly not glass. Amazing how many times you hear that term thrown around. To me a glass chin would mean as soon as you're caught on it the fight is done.

Yeah I remember Tate pretty much dominated the fight until that shot near the end of the 12th. Tate then fought much more cautiously until he got clocked with about 45 seconds left in the fight.

I'll never forget that night, Holmes/Weaver, Leonard/Green & I think it was Mustafa/Johnson. I was punished for something, so my Dad wouldn't let me watch it. I'm pretty sure it was a Monday night, and I had one of those radios with the 3 main TV channels on it so I put in my headphones and listened to the fights in bed.

I used to have one of those radios too, but I used to listen to wrestling, especially when I was going somehwere. Come to think of it, I did listen to the Michael Spinks-Jerry Celestine fight on mine back in the day.

Il Duce wrote:Big John Tate

* Would have probably beaten either WBA Champion's - Leon Spinks or Muhammad Ali in 1978.
* In October 1979 > Following his win over Gerrie Coetzee, was equal to WBC Champion - Larry Holmes.

* Was beating Mike Weaver, and was handling him much better than Larry Holmes did, until,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Article from July 20, 1976

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... ZkOkpUcZZA

Still amazes me that he beat Michael Dokes, Greg Page, and Marvin Stinson en route to representing in the 1976 Olympics.

I've always agreed that the alphabet organizations were a tad shady when ranking fighters. but I don't know how the hell some of these guys got ranked so highly, especially in the late 70's. What was Kallie Knoetze doing with a #1 rating?

Il Duce wrote:August 1978

After Kallie Knoetze 'blitzed' Duane Bobick with 'one-punch' in Round 3 in February 1978.

The South African Publicity machine was in 'full mode'..............

They even offered Joe Frazier nearly $700,000 to come back and to fight Kallie in South Africa.

World Boxing Association + South African Cash = #1 Ranking

Yeah I figured it had to do with money. Probably the same reason why Coetzee received THREE title shots at the WBA belt, despite losing the first two, then was allowed to go 15 months defenseless without being stripped after winning it.

Coetzee earned his shots. There was much more hype behind Knoetzee and his allegedly chilling power. He was also an ex-cop that was firmly behind apartheid.

He earned his shot against Tate. Not sure about the other two.

He was a top guy for a long time. 3 shots was far from out of line. The public wanted more than that, they wanted to see him fight Holmes too.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:He was a top guy for a long time. 3 shots was far from out of line. The public wanted more than that, they wanted to see him fight Holmes too.

I don't agree with the public, just as you don't always agree with ratings. Incidentally Holmes did sign to fight Coetzee, but Gerrie's people backed out of the deal.

drunkenpiper36 wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:He was a top guy for a long time. 3 shots was far from out of line. The public wanted more than that, they wanted to see him fight Holmes too.

I don't agree with the public, just as you don't always agree with ratings. Incidentally Holmes did sign to fight Coetzee, but Gerrie's people backed out of the deal.

You don't have to agree. Nobody at the time thought Gerrie was getting too many opportunities and he certainly wasn't a cash cow.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

drunkenpiper36 wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:He was a top guy for a long time. 3 shots was far from out of line. The public wanted more than that, they wanted to see him fight Holmes too.

I don't agree with the public, just as you don't always agree with ratings. Incidentally Holmes did sign to fight Coetzee, but Gerrie's people backed out of the deal.

You don't have to agree. Nobody at the time thought Gerrie was getting too many opportunities and he certainly wasn't a cash cow.

He was definitely a cash cow in south Africa. And a lot of people in the US didn't think that our defending champions should have been doing business with an athlete who came from a country exercising aparthied. He deserved his shot at Tate and remained a decent contender for the remainder of the early to mid 80's

drunkenpiper36 wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

drunkenpiper36 wrote:
I don't agree with the public, just as you don't always agree with ratings. Incidentally Holmes did sign to fight Coetzee, but Gerrie's people backed out of the deal.

You don't have to agree. Nobody at the time thought Gerrie was getting too many opportunities and he certainly wasn't a cash cow.

He was definitely a cash cow in south Africa. And a lot of people in the US didn't think that our defending champions should have been doing business with an athlete who came from a country exercising aparthied. He deserved his shot at Tate and remained a decent contender for the remainder of the early to mid 80's

He deserved all of his shots. The Weaver fight was excellent and he beat Dokes. You're obviously not overly familiar with the time frame. He definitely filled seats in South Africa, you're right about that.

I'm well aware of the fact that he beat Dokes and gave Weaver fits. That doesn't necessarily change the fact that he wasn't the most deserving challenger. The WBA is known for shit like that.

drunkenpiper36 wrote:I'm well aware of the fact that he beat Dokes and gave Weaver fits. That doesn't necessarily change the fact that he wasn't the most deserving challenger. The WBA is known for poo like that.

Who was more "deserving"? I wasn't implying that you didn't know the results and it wasn't an insult. I can just tell you weren't around then and are playing catch up.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

drunkenpiper36 wrote:I'm well aware of the fact that he beat Dokes and gave Weaver fits. That doesn't necessarily change the fact that he wasn't the most deserving challenger. The WBA is known for poo like that.

Who was more "deserving"? I wasn't implying that you didn't know the results and it wasn't an insult. I can just tell you weren't around then and are playing catch up.

Well that's true. Admitedly I was 9 years old in 1983, sooooo.. But I think Pinklon Thomas was at least just as deserving for Dokes' title if not more so than Coetzee don't you?

drunkenpiper36 wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

drunkenpiper36 wrote:I'm well aware of the fact that he beat Dokes and gave Weaver fits. That doesn't necessarily change the fact that he wasn't the most deserving challenger. The WBA is known for poo like that.

Who was more "deserving"? I wasn't implying that you didn't know the results and it wasn't an insult. I can just tell you weren't around then and are playing catch up.

Well that's true. Admitedly I was 9 years old in 1983, sooooo.. But I think Pinklon Thomas was at least just as deserving for Dokes' title if not more so than Coetzee don't you?

That would also have been a justifiable selection, more deserving? No

It's hard to question his deserving a shot against Dokes, given his questionable loss to Snipes, the stoppages LeDoux and Ward and the draw with Pinky. He was a legit top ranked HW with a good story line and a lot of power. And he was clearly the best South African HW at a time when SA probably had the second best group of HWs.

Of course I'd have to check the timing of Thomas's title fight with WItherspoon. He might already have been holding the WBC or been in a contract to fight for it. In which case it would exclude him from the scenario.

The Great John L wrote:It's hard to question his deserving a shot against Dokes, given his questionable loss to Snipes, the stoppages LeDoux and Ward and the draw with Pinky. He was a legit top ranked HW with a good story line and a lot of power. And he was clearly the best South African HW at a time when SA probably had the second best group of HWs.

I was never a fan(I loved Spinks), but he was solid for a long time.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

The Great John L wrote:It's hard to question his deserving a shot against Dokes, given his questionable loss to Snipes, the stoppages LeDoux and Ward and the draw with Pinky. He was a legit top ranked HW with a good story line and a lot of power. And he was clearly the best South African HW at a time when SA probably had the second best group of HWs.

I was never a fan(I loved Spinks), but he was solid for a long time.

I wasn't a fan either, especially after I watched him dismantle our local guy at the Coliseum. I was also a HUGE Leon Spinks fan. He may have been the most exciting amatuer fighter I've ever seen. He was a huge puncher in the am at LHW and was all offense. Another fun amatuer shortly after Leon was Ricky Womack.

Anyway I just don't see how anyone could argue that Coetzee somehow didn't deserve his shots when Holmes was fighting guys like Frank and LeDoux. In fact, Bone was very early in his career as well, with limited amatuer experience.

Lots of undeserving fighters get shots at titles, but Coetzee wasn't one of them.

The Great John L wrote:

drunkenpiper36 wrote:I don't know that much about john tate, but he was a big guy who might have had the type of size and style to take advantage of the current scene. His chin would always be a problem in any era of hard hitters though.

Well there aren't many current proven big punchers, so I think he'd be OK as along as he didn't fight Wlad. Since he survived Knoetze and Coetzee I don't think there are too many active now who would pose much of a problem.

The last decade has featured the lightest hitting HW class of all time. You have Wlad, Helenius, Stiverne, . . with Haye now gone, really not much else. I don't even count Wilder yet as he has yet to beat a top 25 opponent.

dempseyfire wrote:

The Great John L wrote:

drunkenpiper36 wrote:I don't know that much about john tate, but he was a big guy who might have had the type of size and style to take advantage of the current scene. His chin would always be a problem in any era of hard hitters though.

Well there aren't many current proven big punchers, so I think he'd be OK as along as he didn't fight Wlad. Since he survived Knoetze and Coetzee I don't think there are too many active now who would pose much of a problem.

The last decade has featured the lightest hitting HW class of all time. You have Wlad, Helenius, Stiverne, . . with Haye now gone, really not much else. I don't even count Wilder yet as he has yet to beat a top 25 opponent.

And who has Helenius beaten that proves he has real power? Brewster was shot, McCline dispelled the myth of the Sam Peters chin years earlier, and besides them there isn't much on his resume. I guess like Wilder he might be a big puncher, but so far I'd call him unproven as well.

Helenius is a clown. He has some pop in his hook, but nobody of moderate skills is getting bothered by it. Scott LeDoux would beat the dogshit out of him.

Anyway I just don't see how anyone could argue that Coetzee somehow didn't deserve his shots when Holmes was fighting guys like Frank and LeDoux. In fact, Bone was very early in his career as well, with limited amatuer experience.

That is very true and I have made similar criticisms of Holmes' reign as champion. But this is about Coetzee fighting for the WBA on three separate occasions, which had nothing to do with Holmes. In fact every time Coetzee lost to a WBA champion, he'd end up in the ring with the guy who succeeded that champion. Now after reading the arguments and going back through the ratings between 1980-1984, I concede my argument that he was undeserving. But ONLY because there weren't many other qualified challengers who were available and not either already holding belts or committed to other fights at the time.

The Great John L wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:

The Great John L wrote:
Well there aren't many current proven big punchers, so I think he'd be OK as along as he didn't fight Wlad. Since he survived Knoetze and Coetzee I don't think there are too many active now who would pose much of a problem.

The last decade has featured the lightest hitting HW class of all time. You have Wlad, Helenius, Stiverne, . . with Haye now gone, really not much else. I don't even count Wilder yet as he has yet to beat a top 25 opponent.

And who has Helenius beaten that proves he has real power? Brewster was shot, McCline dispelled the myth of the Sam Peters chin years earlier, and besides them there isn't much on his resume. I guess like Wilder he might be a big puncher, but so far I'd call him unproven as well.

Unless I didn't deserve my English GCSE, Dempseyfire is agreeing with you that current HWs don't hit hard.

[edit] Never mind. My reading evidently really isn't up to standard. I see that you were only quibbling Helenius as a hitter.