New Game-Overrated or Underrated

The Great John L
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Re: New Game-Overrated or Underrated

Post by The Great John L »

Counter-puncher wrote:Mitchell under-rated, IMO, never beat great fighters but was always on the road, had no discernible power but good all-round skills and defence.

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has Pipino Cuevas been done? if he has, then maybe Buddy McGirt?
Cuevas seems to be a little under-rated these days. Certainly p4p one of the hardest punchers ever.

How about his counterpart from that era, Carlos Palomino?
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Re: New Game-Overrated or Underrated

Post by Seamus »

Overrated. Palomino was a very good fighter, but he just didn't do enough to merit being elected to the IBHOF.

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Iran Barkley
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Re: New Game-Overrated or Underrated

Post by hhaehre »

Seamus wrote:Overrated. Palomino was a very good fighter, but he just didn't do enough to merit being elected to the IBHOF.

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Iran Barkley
A bit overrated. A solid pro but too much have been made out of the Hearns fights

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Virgil Hill
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Re: New Game-Overrated or Underrated

Post by Counter-puncher »

I'm gonna go with under-rated a little even among hardcore fans. superb skills that were dampened by his cautious style.

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Manny Steward
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Re: New Game-Overrated or Underrated

Post by My2Sense »

Counter-puncher wrote:Manny Steward
I was waiting for this one to come up! :lol:

OVERRATED.

He makes fighters more technically sound, but often at the cost of their aggression, fire, and offensive prowess.

Look at how Jermain Taylor performed progressively worse under Steward, until finally he got himself KO'd. Then look at how he suddenly regained his fire and form as soon as he fired Steward. Yes, he did lose to Pavlik in the end, but he came far closer to beating him than he did under Steward. (BTW, did anyone else notice how Manny was nowhere to be seen when Taylor was being interviewed in his dressing room after the first Pavlik fight? That's after Manny had talked all sorts of trash about how Taylor was going to whup him going into the fight. :lol: )

Steward's work with Lennox Lewis is vastly overrated IMO. He did fine-tune Lennox to some degree, but there wasn't the big findamental change that people make it out to be. He was still inconsistent under Manny and had his share of embarassing performances (including his loss to Rahman) under him as well. Also, Manny took away Lennox's left hook, which had showed promise early in his career, and limited him to being a jab-right kind of fighter.

I believe Manny has had a similar effect on Wlad Klitschko. He's made him a bit better technically and defensively, but at the same time has taken away some of the fire that once made him so feared in the division.

I also believe Manny looks to work only with fighters that are obviously hugely talented to begin with (like Lennox and Wlad) and then just fine-tune them, rather than take fighters of moderate talents and build them from the ground up (the way Joe Goossen does).

And for some reason, Manny gets a free pass for the inept job he did with Prince Hamed going into the Barrera fight. The extent of his "advice" in the corner consisted of, "Try not to wobble so much when you get hit". :roll: :lol:


Next up: Azumah Nelson.
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Re: New Game-Overrated or Underrated

Post by Counter-puncher »

taking the coward's way out i will say he is just 'rated' neither under nor over. serious boxing fans know what class and range of talents he had, and the excellent longevity etc. they should also know that his list of opponents during the long reign at 130lbs was hardly a murderer's row and there were some pretty good fighters out there- Mitchell Chavez Lopez come to mind to name but 3- who he never tried to unify against (to my knowledge). if anything the latter bit tends to get forgotten maybe so some people may over-rate him but IMo there is enough substance to his record and style to his wins to justify his high ranking.

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Orlando Canizales
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Re: New Game-Overrated or Underrated

Post by witherspoon »

I will stick my neck out and say underrated. Simply because this is the first mention of him I have come across on these boards. Used to watch his fights regularly and always found him entertaining, had a decent spell as champ too, but can't remember who the other top bantam's were at the time without reaearch to jog me.

Rubin Carter.
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Re: New Game-Overrated or Underrated

Post by Goodnight, Irene »

Definitely overrated. That bloody song :roll:

Ismael Laguna...
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Re: New Game-Overrated or Underrated

Post by My2Sense »

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Ismael Laguna...
Overrated.

Has one big win over Carlos Ortiz, but has lost practically every other fight he ever had to a HOFer, including two rematches with Ortiz and to "smaller" men like Saldivar (who beat him decisively) and Elorde.


Next up: Jim Lampley. :DD
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Re: New Game-Overrated or Underrated

Post by Jaywheel »

He is hated more than rated IMO.

Next up: Gus D'Amato
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Re: New Game-Overrated or Underrated

Post by observer1 »

Jaywheel wrote:He is hated more than rated IMO.

Next up: Gus D'Amato

I'm asuming you Mean Cus..

Under Rateed IMO.

Whenever People Mention Cus, they think of 'That old man who trained Tyson early in his career and died' etc.

Cus deserves credit for his work with Patterson, not to mention coaching Trainers, such as Rooney and Atlas.

Not to mention the advice he gave to Ali.

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Carl 'The Truth' Williams
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Re: New Game-Overrated or Underrated

Post by giacomino »

Rated. He had brief moments when people thought he'd make a pretty good contender (distance loss to Holmes, UD over Berbick in '88), but for the most part, I think most people thought of him as a heavyweight with skills who couldn't win the big fights. Don't think he was ever really rated that highly

Next up: Bennie Briscoe
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Re: New Game-Overrated or Underrated

Post by My2Sense »

giacomino wrote:Next up: Bennie Briscoe
Overrated.

People rank him alongside fighters like Charley Burley and Lloyd Marshall, as being among the best never to win a title. But those other fighters proved they were capable of beating championship-level fighters and didn't win a title because they were never given shots. Briscoe is essentially a middleweight version of Jerry Quarry, a fighter who had numerous chances to win a title and simply wasn't good enough. Like Quarry, he also has some embarassing/inexcusable losses on his record, such as to aging ex-welterweight champions like Emile Griffith and Luis Rodriguez. I think Briscoe only got as far as he did because the middleweight division was so shallow at that time. I think if he had come around a decade earlier, he would've been fodder for guys like Dick Tiger and Joey Giardello.


Speaking of Giardello, he's the next entry. :DD
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Re: New Game-Overrated or Underrated

Post by witherspoon »

Next up: Gus D'Amato
I'm asuming you Mean Cus..

Under Rateed IMO.

Cus deserves credit for his work with Patterson, not to mention coaching Trainers, such as Rooney and Atlas.

Not to mention the advice he gave to Ali.

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Carl 'The Truth' Williams
Not to mention look what a bitch it turned out to be to get Mike Tyson to perform. I know we all accept that fame and money and Don King and Robbing( :lol: ) Givens screwed Mike, but lets face it, the guy is fragile. Cus did one hell of a job keeping Tyson together mentally (with alot of help from Teddy Atlas). Though some would argue Cus' sheltering and cover-ups were what led to later disfunctions, but thats another thread.

Giardello is slightly underrated, IMO. Held his own with some very good fighters and I don't think he gets the credit he deserves.

Jorge Paez (sr).
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Re: New Game-Overrated or Underrated

Post by My2Sense »

witherspoon wrote:
Jorge Paez (sr).
Underrated... sort of.

He doesn't deserve to go down as a great fighter as he is, but I think people don't realize how good a fighter he was during his brief peak as a featherweight, before ballooning in weight and sucking back down caught up with him.

He won his title from another talented and underrated champion in Calvin Grove, and was impressive in defending it against Louie Espinoza (even though the judges called it a "draw", it really was a clear cut win for Paez IMO). He had very good hand-speed, good reflexes, and deceptively good footwork and counterpunching skill, plus he was strong, tough, and could bang with both hands. You might liken him to a more aggressive, higher workrate version of James Toney. By the time he fought Dorsey, he was already showing the wear and tear of all his weight issues. That he remained a good contender up at the higher weights when past his prime shows just what potential he had down at featherweight IMO. He might've one of the greats there, had he stayed disciplined in between fights and not abused his body so incessantly.


Next up: The first man to beat Paez fair and square, Tony "The Tiger" Lopez.
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Re: New Game-Overrated or Underrated

Post by Counter-puncher »

Lopez, IMO, is slightly under-rated, as he was around when there were quite a few good fighters at the lower weights; he met few of them bar Lockridge and Mitchell but his resume's still okay. people focus on his punch but he had decent Chacon-like skills, decent counterpuncher and hard bodypuncher.

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Wilfredo Gomez
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Re: New Game-Overrated or Underrated

Post by Seamus »

Overall I'd say he's rated right about where he should be. He's an alltime great puncher and champion, though I have to admit he's overrated at Featherweight.

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Herol Graham
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Re: New Game-Overrated or Underrated

Post by giacomino »

Tough call because he was a fighter with great skill who came up short against the really top opponents (McCallum, Kalambay, Jackson and, at the end of his career, Brewer). I would say slightly overrated because of that fact.

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Julian Jackson
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Re: New Game-Overrated or Underrated

Post by big train express »

overrated.

was a really hard hitter with solid skills and little defense.

cosme rivera
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Re: New Game-Overrated or Underrated

Post by Datsue »

Rivera (isn't he still active?) is about right, I'd say: what used to be called a "gatekeeper", you need to beat him to get a shot at a title. Solid but not elite, which is what most think, yes?

Apologies if this has been done (just ignore it if it has) but I know it's bound to get a reaction:

Ricardo "Finito" Lopez.
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Re: New Game-Overrated or Underrated

Post by Goodnight, Irene »

I actually just posted it about one-two pages back, & the opinion was underrated. I agree. An all-too-forgotten fighter, given his relatively recent retirement (from a historical perspective). Arguably the greatest fighter I've seen in my lifetime (24).

Vernon Forrest (Whole career).
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Re: New Game-Overrated or Underrated

Post by Jaywheel »

I think somewhat underrated. Not much tough. The Mayorga losses nullified the Mosley wins in many peoples minds. Forrest has the skill to hang in there with the A and B+ fighters (Mosley, Quartey) and besides the Mora fiasco that was their first fight, i think injuries have prevented him from being regarded to his just value. If he does well in is next few fights, he should be remembered as he is supposed to IMO.
Would have liked to see him in his prime vs Paul Williams at 147.

Next up: Hector Camacho sr.
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Re: New Game-Overrated or Underrated

Post by Goodnight, Irene »

Brilliant Lightweight whose career slipped thereafter, causing him to sit as underrated, if only slightly, in my view. Had some exciting affairs.

Fernando Vargas (once, a very promising fighter & exciting young champion, though he lost most of his biggest affairs. Seems like many moons ago, now).
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Re: New Game-Overrated or Underrated

Post by Jaywheel »

Beating Wright and Quartey so young was impressive. Handled Quartey better than DLH IMO. In retrospect, the win over Wright is his most impressive.
Could have taken softer fights instead of fighting Tito. Still had some left after that first loss for he gave DLH a great fight. But did not win a single fight in an impressive fashion after that 1st loss. Going down against Rivera, struggling against Castillejo.
His last fight was a shame.

Overall, i think a little overrated but much less than before the losses to Mosley. Good puncher, not strong defensively, and very tentative after losing for the 1st time. One punch at a time. Looked slow even when facing c level opposition.

Like Tyson or Taylor, Meldrick that is, burned out fast and never truly recovered from that first loss.

Next: Bronco McKart
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Re: New Game-Overrated or Underrated

Post by Seamus »

McKart may be just a little underrated if for no other reason than the fact that he managed 50+wins in an era when it's no longer common. He's got wins over Aaron Davis, Santos Cardona, Glenwood Brown and a few others, and won him self a belt, so a little underrated perhaps.

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Lou Brouillard
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