BoxRec

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

ThatOne wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote: LOL, you love Ali more than oxygen. It's quite clear you don't find your survey irrelevant. I do, so perhaps you should try pushing it to someone else.

As for the argument, I don't even think it's debatable that Dempsey was more popular than Ali. You're mixing up famous and popular. I've never read an account of a crowd jeering Dempsey and screaming for his blood.

Even if Ali was a controversial figure in America he was a beloved figure in the Second and Third World., a world last time I checked the U.S. accounted for about six percent of it.



And even in America, most people have made peace with Ali. He's been a guest to the White House numerous times, regardless of the party of the president.

There is no point in talking to you about Ali. Carry on with your nuthugging.

He was more popular than The Beatles!

Edit: Holy shit, I just realized you dug up a thread from 2003. No, that's not obsessive at all.

I dug it up because I was bored.



And I regret you can't engage in an adult conversation.

ThatOne wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

ThatOne wrote:Nobody's "hating" on Dempsey. I just think it's kind of odd to argue how famous Muhammad Ali is or isn't, whether you think he's The Greatest or The Most Overrated.

The man is famous. He could get an audience with Putin, Obama, Cameron, Wen Jiabo, Angela Merkel,Sarkohzy, Berlusconi. King Abdullah tomorrow.

I didn't accuse you of hating on anyone and I certainly didn't say Ali wasn't famous or popular.

I simply said that nobody was more popular than Jack Dempsey and you went on a tangent with your silly little poll. If you want to toss out posts implying an adult discussion you should try and keep it within the realm of what is actually said.

For the record, I'm a huge Dempsey "hater". I find him to be incredibly overrated. But his fame and popularity are unquestionable. He can't get a meeting with anyone. Because no matter how much you want to ignore it, his time was long ago and he is dead.

The Q Rating is a commonly used metric to determine the popularity, appeal, marketabilty of brands, celebrities, et cetera. I don't know why you are dismissing it.

And I think the fact that Muhammad Ali is the most "familiar" (there word) athlete today, thirty years after he retired, is impressive.

This survey backs me up. Two can play at that game.

http://www.zagat.com/fastfood

ThatOne wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

ThatOne wrote:
Even if Ali was a controversial figure in America he was a beloved figure in the Second and Third World., a world last time I checked the U.S. accounted for about six percent of it.



And even in America, most people have made peace with Ali. He's been a guest to the White House numerous times, regardless of the party of the president.

There is no point in talking to you about Ali. Carry on with your nuthugging.

He was more popular than The Beatles!

Edit: Holy shit, I just realized you dug up a thread from 2003. No, that's not obsessive at all.

I dug it up because I was bored.



And I regret you can't engage in an adult conversation.

You're under no obligation to read my posts or speak to me. And you weren't bored, you were desperate to bicker about your man. I regret that I bothered to respond to you.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

ThatOne wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote: I didn't accuse you of hating on anyone and I certainly didn't say Ali wasn't famous or popular.

I simply said that nobody was more popular than Jack Dempsey and you went on a tangent with your silly little poll. If you want to toss out posts implying an adult discussion you should try and keep it within the realm of what is actually said.

For the record, I'm a huge Dempsey "hater". I find him to be incredibly overrated. But his fame and popularity are unquestionable. He can't get a meeting with anyone. Because no matter how much you want to ignore it, his time was long ago and he is dead.

The Q Rating is a commonly used metric to determine the popularity, appeal, marketabilty of brands, celebrities, et cetera. I don't know why you are dismissing it.

And I think the fact that Muhammad Ali is the most "familiar" (there word) athlete today, thirty years after he retired, is impressive.

This survey backs me up. Two can play at that game.

http://www.zagat.com/fastfood

If I wanted to learn what the most popular fast food place is I would certainly rely on the Zagat Food Survey Of Fast Food Restaurants as one of my sources. That's fairly unremarkable.

Agreed, Popeyes is better than KFC.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

ThatOne wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

There is no point in talking to you about Ali. Carry on with your nuthugging.

He was more popular than The Beatles!

Edit: Holy shit, I just realized you dug up a thread from 2003. No, that's not obsessive at all.

I dug it up because I was bored.



And I regret you can't engage in an adult conversation.

You're under no obligation to read my posts or speak to me. And you weren't bored, you were desperate to bicker about your man. I regret that I bothered to respond to you.

Fair enough. I don't want to belabor the point but I don't see why two people can't have a a civil debate, even about thing they feel passionate about. I think I did my best to understand your points and respond to them fairly without satire or invective.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Agreed, Popeyes is better than KFC.

That's subjective. But we could certainly determine which company has more gross sales or in store sales, and which company's patron came away with a more positive culinary experience.

Let's just say we have reached an impasse and wish each other a nice weekend and a nice life...

The only fair way to evaluate something as arbitrary as popularity from such different eras would be to look at the percentage of people that had access to the fighters and where they stood on them. And it's Dempsey by a landslide.

You really couldn't find a topic I'm less passionate about. But I'm bored so i decided to try and talk to you about it. No hard feelings, you're just very difficult on all things Ali. My bad, I should know better.

Edit: And yeah, LOL, have a great life.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

addi wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:
Famous and popular are two different things. Many people despised Ali. That sells tickets as well as love, though he could never sell tickets like Jack Dempsey. Nobody could.

your right about dempsey as a ticket seller he was huge in the states back then, ali came through in the satalite era and far more people world wide saw ali fights. and thats a fact.

ali's not just the most famous,popular,recognisable boxer or sportsman he's the most famous,popular,recognisable person.

and defo not overated.

Obviously technology was greater in the 70's than it was in the 20's. It also made Dempsey's popularity even more impressive. He made 1 million dollars for a fight in the 20's and enhanced the popularity of the sport in ways that nobody could ever touch. He was solely responsible for telecommunications getting involved in Boxing in the first place.

And no, Ali isn't overrated. He would have kicked Dempsey's ass. But it would have been to the dismay of the crowd.

all good points,dempsey was huge back in his day, but it was a long time ago and outside of boxing fans today i'm not sure dempsey is so well known, where ali is and as stated on a post earler the ? is will ali be as well known in 40 years from now as he is today i'll be 85 if i make it,but due to his stance on vietnam that gives him a place in history outside of boxing,and that is why in 100 years ther'll still talk about him

Dempsey's coming up on 100 years relatively soon and we are still talking about him. He isn't as popular as Ali now because fans grew up with Ali. In the mid 60's I'll bet Marciano was more popular than Ali. That's just the changing in times. Nobody will ever forget either of them. But the kids of today will be talking about Floyd Mayweather & Pac more than Muhammad Ali in 30 years, because that's who they grew up watching.

addi wrote:Dempsey was a top fighter and was hugely popular in the twenty's, hollywood wife, was all over the news, and he was in some of the biggest attended fights in history but i doubt he was as well known as jack johnson never mind ali as far as world popularity goes.Ali is simply the most popular, recognised man on the planet.

You doubt it, but you're misinformed. Dempsey was known internationally.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

addi wrote:Dempsey was a top fighter and was hugely popular in the twenty's, hollywood wife, was all over the news, and he was in some of the biggest attended fights in history but i doubt he was as well known as jack johnson never mind ali as far as world popularity goes.Ali is simply the most popular, recognised man on the planet.

You doubt it, but you're misinformed. Dempsey was known internationally.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.h ... 5B818EF1D3

I think people lose track of the fact that the Major Sports leagues, the ones actually in existence, were not significant entities then. It just doesn't get more popular than Jack Dempsey.

He was known & reported on in Australia, in New Zealand. That's some promotional job. I agree all the way, Saad. He was, like Ali would later become, a phenomenally popular icon.

you may disagree but i'm not buying dempsey more iconoic than ali. i dont want to be dissin dempsey he was truly a great fighter that captured the imagination of the world in the twenty's but outside of boxing fans today no one talks about him. as for mayweather and pac-man i'd say ali's more popular now than the two of them never mind in thirty years from now.the mans an icon.who's fame trancends boxing.

addi wrote:you may disagree but i'm not buying dempsey more iconoic than ali. i dont want to be dissin dempsey he was truly a great fighter that captured the imagination of the world in the twenty's but outside of boxing fans today no one talks about him. as for mayweather and pac-man i'd say ali's more popular now than the two of them never mind in thirty years from now.the mans an icon.who's fame trancends boxing.

Everyone you're talking about are icons. And by all means, diss dempsey's skills all you want. As far as popularity, he is, at a minimum, the equal of any fighter who has ever lived. That's not even an opinion.

I will adress the points made in this thread regarding the popularity of Jack Dempsey and Muhammad Ali without rancor and in an adult like fashion.

The statement was made that "NOBODY WAS MORE POPULAR THAN DEMPSEY" which was qualified to "Nobody was more popular in his era than Dempey was in his era." If we are discussing boxers than I would argue Muhammad Ali and Joe Louis were as popular as any boxer from any era. And if we are discussing athletes I would argue Babe Ruth, Michael Jordan, and Tiger Woods are as popular as any athlete from any era. For celebrities, political thinkers, and religious figures the list is much longer. I would agree that the advent of mass communications is a factor one must consider in comparing the popularity of figures from different eras but it is not determinative.

The point was made or suggested that I was confusing familiarity with popularity and that's a point worth making. However I think I'm bright enough not to confuse the two. I acknowledge there was a point in history when many Americans wanted Muhammad Ali to lose but I would add the world is much, much larger than America, and in that world Ali was viewed infinitely more favorably . I don't think there's much dispute that Ali's stance on the Viet Nam War made him the most famous draft resister in the history of the United States and that stance was embraced by most of the Second World ( the Soviet Union and the Eastern Bloc), and the Third World (China, India, Cuba, Asia. Africa, and much of Central and South America). The ironic thing is that by the time he beat George Foreman , most but not all of America softened their stance on Ali, as they reexamined the cost of the war in Viet Nam and why we were involved, and understood his opposition was sincere. That's why conservative political figures like George W. Bush could give Ali the Medal Of Freedom, the highest honor the United States could bestow upon a civilian. I would also argue that even in most of the First World ( U.S., Canada, the UK, Australia, Japan, and Western Europe Muhammad Ali was a popular figure)

Muhammad Ali wasn't just a fighter. He was a political and cultural figure. He was a symbol of nascent black nationalsim when it was sweeping America and much of Africa and a symbol of anti-imperialism when it was sweeping the Second and Third World. I doubt he knew he was at the time but there's no disputing he was.

In short, if Ali's refusal to be inducted into the Army earned him the emnity of many in the United States it also earned him the adoration of many in the rest of the world.

But, alas there is a difference between familarity and popularity. I doubt there's not a person on the planet who didn't know who Osama bin Laden was. But I'm sure there werre a lot of people who didn't like him.

Back to Ali, there are few athletes who transcended their sport like Ali did. There's Jackie Robinson who broke the color line. There's Joe Louis who wrecked the myth of Aryan supremacy. There's Tiger Wood who paved the way for other people of color to dominate a sport that was never before dominated by a person of color, and there's Babe Ruth.

Sorry, I dozed off halfway through that novel. Is there a cliff notes version?

And yes, Nobody was more popular than Dempsey, era for era. Those are the facts my friend

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Sorry, I dozed off halfway through that novel. Is there a cliff notes version?

And yes, Nobody was more popular than Dempsey, era for era. Those are the facts my friend

Can they be as popular?

ThatOne wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Sorry, I dozed off halfway through that novel. Is there a cliff notes version?

And yes, Nobody was more popular than Dempsey, era for era. Those are the facts my friend

Can they be as popular?

No

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

ThatOne wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Sorry, I dozed off halfway through that novel. Is there a cliff notes version?

And yes, Nobody was more popular than Dempsey, era for era. Those are the facts my friend

Can they be as popular?

No

So is Dempsey the most popular athlete to have ever lived or is he the most popular individual to ever lived which is an infinitely broader category?

And I know this is subjective but if Dempsey is so popular or was so popular in his era why doesn't he appear at the top of most lists of the greatest and most popular athletes of the century?

How long do you want to ask the same questions and dance the same dance? I don't read as many surveys as you do but for at least the fifth time, Dempsey's popularity was at it's peak 80+ years ago. That wont translate to your beloved polls of today.

I would say Dempsey is the most popular Boxer who has ever lived. Though several, including Ali, were equally famous. I would guess Jordan or Pele to be the most popular athlete in history. Probably Pele.

ThatOne wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

ThatOne wrote: Can they be as popular?

No

So is Dempsey the most popular athlete to have ever lived or is he the most popular individual to ever lived which is an infinitely broader category?

And I know this is subjective but if Dempsey is so popular or was so popular in his era why doesn't he appear at the top of most lists of the greatest and most popular athletes of the century?

He did in the 1950s.

raylawpc wrote:

ThatOne wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote: No

So is Dempsey the most popular athlete to have ever lived or is he the most popular individual to ever lived which is an infinitely broader category?

And I know this is subjective but if Dempsey is so popular or was so popular in his era why doesn't he appear at the top of most lists of the greatest and most popular athletes of the century?

He did in the 1950s.

These terms are so subjective and amorphous. For the sake of this discussion "popularity" has been defined as being liked or disliked by the people who had acces to you. Does that mean the person who had one hundred million people that were aware of him and they all liked him is more popular than the person who had four billion people access to him and three and one half billion people liked him? He is relatively but not absolutely.

And I don't think any mass celebrity is universally loved. There were certainly NAZI sympathizers rooting for Schmelling.

Popular is an easy word to define. I think you know that, but are struggling to come to grips with the fact that your hero might not be atop this particular subject.

Ali was definitely popular, but he was also a gigantic asshole. And that rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. You seem to really be struggling between the difference in 1925 & 1975. But without TV, Dempsey was still known all over the world. That's more impressive, not less.

And Joe Louis was up there too.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Popular is an easy word to define. I think you know that, but are struggling to come to grips with the fact that your hero might not be atop this particular subject.

Ali was definitely popular, but he was also a gigantic asshole. And that rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. You seem to really be struggling between the difference in 1925 & 1975. But without TV, Dempsey was still known all over the world. That's more impressive, not less.

And Joe Louis was up there too.

No , you are confusing familiarity with popularity. Even if I accept your assertion that "Dempsey was known all over the world" which is dubious. (They knew who he was in Africa? in Asia?) I don't believe that he was universally admired. Even a cursory review of the record would suggest that.


And I think this statement is closer to the truth and I think you know that.

Ali was definitely popular, but he was also a gigantic asshole. And that rubbed a lot of Americans the wrong way.

But take Ali out of the equation I still think there were boxers and other athletes that were every bit as popular as Dempsey was in his era. Jack Dempsey was certainly a great boxer and a celebrity but I think his status is being blown completely out of proportion in this thread. I assure you outside of this board, he will be on very few people's Mount Rushmore of athletes or even boxers.