The Top 100 Greatest Boxers Pound per Pound of All-Time

[Ambling Alp II]

Obviously, the judges should not have bothered to judge the other 7 rounds.
I'm almost afraid to ask, but how did you score the fight?

[elmersalsa]

Obviously, the judges should not have bothered to judge the other 7 rounds.
I'm almost afraid to ask, but how did you score the fight?

I had the fight even, 5-5 in rounds. But, in ten-point scoring system, I had it 96-94, Bruce Curry.

[Ambling Alp II]

You scored the fight 5-5, and you are complaining that the woman judge scored it 5-4-1.
Btw, Benitez is way too low at #68. He should be in the top 50. Why don't we skip to the part where he beat Duran and hear all of the crybaby excuses for Duran.

[elmersalsa]

You scored the fight 5-5, and you are complaining that the woman judge scored it 5-4-1.
Btw, Benitez is way too low at #68. He should be in the top 50. Why don't we skip to the part where he beat Duran and hear all of the crybaby excuses for Duran.

Well, do you believe that Benitez beats Duran all the time and everytime, and at any weight class?

[elmersalsa]

You scored the fight 5-5, and you are complaining that the woman judge scored it 5-4-1.
Btw, Benitez is way too low at #68. He should be in the top 50. Why don't we skip to the part where he beat Duran and hear all of the crybaby excuses for Duran.

I don't believe that he is top 50 all time pound per pound great. He is right at #68 in my view. The top 50 fighters were fighters that were very, very special and that capture the boxing's fan imagination.

[elmersalsa]

The rematch was set on Saturday, February 4, 1978 again at the Madison Square Garden in New York City.

A week or two before that fight, Bruce Curry fought in Japan in a tune up and won by a quick knockout.

Now, it was again his turn to avenge his only loss against El Radar, who this time seemed very ready and focused. Wilfred Benitez, 19, has not yet reached 20 and already had some high profile bouts. It was his first fight for the year 1978.

Curry, 21, had a record of 14-1, with 8KOs.
Benitez had a record of 33-0-1, with 23KOs.

Both fighters were promised by Teddy Brenner, who was the Garden's matchmaker and promoter, that the winner of this fight would have a lucrative fight with the great World Lightweight Champion, Roberto Duran of Panama in a ten-rounder. Duran was about to receive against any of the two, his biggest payday to date of $150,000 dollars!

Did the jet lag affected Curry? Or was it Benitez better this time. Benitez counterpunch beautifully. It was like if this time, Curry didn't had a chance. After round 5, Benitez took control and won by comfortable majority decision win. There were no knockdowns this time for the young Texan.

Now that he beat convincingly Curry once and for good, his sights were a ten round fight against the aging and long-reigning World Lightweight Champion Duran, 26. The Panamanian with the Hands of Stone. This fight was a natural. Boxer vs slugger. Youth vs experience. Puerto Rico vs Panama rivalry all over again. Would Benitez avenge his stable mate Esteban De Jesus and make it even 2-2? It was going to be Duran's first fight as a welterweight. It was going to be a super fight between two of the best fighters in the world at the time.

What happened? Why the fight wasn't made? Well, in 1977 they were to be scheduled to fight on November 1977, exactly the same date that Benitez fought Curry the first time. But Duran pulled out of the fight because of a flu. So, Curry was really a substitute.

This time, the fight was set again since the winner of Benitez-Curry rematch was made, winning Benitez again this time much more convincingly. But, Benitez father and manager, Gregorio, wanted more money ($100,000 dollars) and that the fight be at 145 lbs instead of at 140. It seems that the Benitez's camp did not get their demands. So, there was no fight. Plus, after the Curry rematch, Benitez contacted hepatitis and did not fight for another 6 months. His next opponent? Was a Welterweight contender from North Hollywood, CA named Randy Shields.

Benitez improves to 34-0-1, with 23KOs.

[elmersalsa]

It was the great Wilfred Benitez' 9th professional fight at Madison Square Garden in New York City. There, Benitez was a fan favorite and was producing at the time, a large Puerto Rican following. He was already the Island's top two, or probably, the best fighter.

He was competing at the time for the Island' greatest boxer. Wilfredo "Bazooka" Gomez, the brilliant WBC World Super Bantamweight Champion of Las Monjas, was the other.

[elmersalsa]

Randy Shields, welterweight contender, was born North Hollywood, CA. A son of a Hollywood stuntman, Sonny Shields, who also was his trainer

He was young, 22 years of age, with a respectable record of 31-3-1, with 16KOs.

Randy made his boxing reputation in Los Angeles fighting tough Mexican foes.


He beat the great Sugar Ray Leonard in the amateurs. It's probably the highest highlight of his boxing career. Both of them were 17 years old at the time in 1973. At the amateur level, he won 92 fights, 67 by knockout.

Shields was 6'0" tall. Very tall for a welterweight. It was his first trip to fight in New York City.

While Benitez at 19 years of age, was undefeated in 35 bouts. He was the #1 contender for the welterweight crown. It's his fourth fight at welterweight. He contacted hepatitis and was out for a while.

The fight was controlled by Benitez from the beginning. The surprising thing about the fight that he was carrying the fight to Shields, who was fighting backing up.


In round 6 Benitez connected two rights and Shields was in queer street and went down. Shields almost went out of the ropes.

By the start of round 7, Shields father, Sonny, stopped the bout. Shields didn't come out to continue. The winner by technical knockout in round 7 is Wilfred Benitez and is in his quest for the WBC World Welterweight crown.

Benitez looked great and strong in this fight. He showed the world that he is a force in the welterweight class. About 30 of his fans from Puerto Rico jumped inside the ring to carry their hero and put him in their shoulders. Benitez is a Puerto Rican boxing hero at just 19 years of age.

Benitez improves to 35-0-1 with 24 knockouts.

[Tony1244]

Randy Shields, welterweight contender, was born North Hollywood, CA. A son of a Hollywood stuntman, Sonny Shields, who also was his trainer

He was young, 22 years of age, with a respectable record of 31-3-1, with 16KOs.

Randy made his boxing reputation in Los Angeles fighting tough Mexican foes.


He beat the great Sugar Ray Leonard in the amateurs. It's probably the highest highlight of his boxing career. Both of them were 17 years old at the time in 1973. At the amateur level, he won 92 fights, 67 by knockout.

Shields was 6'0" tall. Very tall for a welterweight. It was his first trip to fight in New York City.

While Benitez at 19 years of age, was undefeated in 35 bouts. He was the #1 contender for the welterweight crown. It's his fourth fight at welterweight. He contacted hepatitis and was out for a while.

The fight was controlled by Benitez from the beginning. The surprising thing about the fight that he was carrying the fight to Shields, who was fighting backing up.


In round 6 Benitez connected two rights and Shields was in queer street and went down. Shields almost went out of the ropes.

By the start of round 7, Shields father, Sonny, stopped the bout. Shields didn't come out to continue. The winner by technical knockout in round 7 is Wilfred Benitez and is in his quest for the WBC World Welterweight crown.

Benitez looked great and strong in this fight. He showed the world that he is a force in the welterweight class. About 30 of his fans from Puerto Rico jumped inside the ring to carry their hero and put him in their shoulders. Benitez is a Puerto Rican boxing hero at just 19 years of age.

Benitez improves to 35-0-1 with 24 knockouts.

Very interesting read. Thank You!

[Ambling Alp II]

You scored the fight 5-5, and you are complaining that the woman judge scored it 5-4-1.
Btw, Benitez is way too low at #68. He should be in the top 50. Why don't we skip to the part where he beat Duran and hear all of the crybaby excuses for Duran.

I don't believe that he is top 50 all time pound per pound great. He is right at #68 in my view. The top 50 fighters were fighters that were very, very special and that capture the boxing's fan imagination.

Hard to believe that a guy not in the top 50 beat Duran. Maybe Duran really was not that good? Is he number #67?

Oh wait a minute. You mean capturing a boxing fan's imagination is part of this? You said have said this earlier. We all thought it was just based on how good a fighter was without any bias on your part.

[elmersalsa]

You scored the fight 5-5, and you are complaining that the woman judge scored it 5-4-1.
Btw, Benitez is way too low at #68. He should be in the top 50. Why don't we skip to the part where he beat Duran and hear all of the crybaby excuses for Duran.

I don't believe that he is top 50 all time pound per pound great. He is right at #68 in my view. The top 50 fighters were fighters that were very, very special and that capture the boxing's fan imagination.

Hard to believe that a guy not in the top 50 beat Duran. Maybe Duran really was not that good? Is he number #67?

Oh wait a minute. You mean capturing a boxing fan's imagination is part of this? You said have said this earlier. We all thought it was just based on how good a fighter was without any bias on your part.

In my view, there were 67 great fighters better than the great Wilfred Benitez. Benitez is not even Puerto Rico's greatest boxer to begin with.

Anybody can lose. That happens even to the great Roberto Duran.

Ain't Sugar Ray Robinson had 19 losses?

Did Robinson ever jumped to 25 pounds to fight anybody great?

And what happened when Robinson jumped 15 pounds? Didn't he lost?

[Ambling Alp II]

Even if you have some Puerto Ricans fighters a ahead of Benitez, there certainly aren't 67 fighters better than Benitez, regardless of weight.

Of course, no one is perfect. However, the fight should help Benitez's cause and hurt Duran's.

Yes Robinson had 19 losses. One when he was greatly outweighed against LaMottta and the rest at various stages of his decline. He also had almost 200 fights.

Did Robinson ever jump 25 pounds to beat someone great? Well no. Neither did Duran. He did beat LaMotta multiple times when LaMotta weighed in for the fights as a middleweight and Robinson as a welterweight.

[elmersalsa]

Even if you have some Puerto Ricans fighters a ahead of Benitez, there certainly aren't 67 fighters better than Benitez, regardless of weight.

Of course, no one is perfect. However, the fight should help Benitez's cause and hurt Duran's.

Yes Robinson had 19 losses. One when he was greatly outweighed against LaMottta and the rest at various stages of his decline. He also had almost 200 fights.

Did Robinson ever jump 25 pounds to beat someone great? Well no. Neither did Duran. He did beat LaMotta multiple times when LaMotta weighed in for the fights as a middleweight and Robinson as a welterweight.

There it is. You admitted that Robinson did not beat someone bigger than he, and he never jumped 25 pounds to beat nobody.

You said neither did Duran, right? But, Duran beat someone bigger, stronger, younger, taller in his prime and that demolished the great Thomas Hearns in 3.

Did Sugar Ray Leonard jumped 25 pounds to beat anybody as good as Iran Barkley? Nope.

And believe me, it could be a matter of opinion. Pound per pound, I matched the great Wilfred Benitez against many boxers. Benitez came up short each time.

At 24, after losing to Hearns, Benitez didn't do a godamned thing. Nothing! And he gotta be a top 50? Please!

In my view, there were 67 better boxers than Benitez. And like I have told you already. Benitez is not even the greatest boxer of his own country.

And then, you put that Robinson beat the great Jake LaMotta. Robinson at least was taller than LaMotta. When Robinson fought someone taller than he, he lost to Joey Maxim.

Robinson 5'11". LaMotta 5'7".
Duran 5'7" Leonard 5'9" or 5'10".
Duran jumped 13 pounds and kicked his ass, didn't he?

Duran 5'7" Davey Moore 5'10"
Duran 5'7" Iran Barkley 6'1"

When has Robinson jumped 13 pounds to beat someone bigger, taller, stronger and younger than he?

[Ambling Alp II]

Wow. Where to start with all of your crap?

Well first, Duran didn't "jump" 25 pounds to fight Hagler. He weighed 156 and half to Hagler's 157. It's not like in Duran's previous fight he weighed 131. He already had three fights as a middleweight. He had not been a lightweight in 5 years. He moved up. Fighters do it all the time. You always act like he is the only guy who has ever done this.

Are you seriously comparing Duran to Robinson? Iran Barkley? That is what, Duran's 5th or 6th best win? Robinson probably has 50 bigger wins than frikkin Iran Barkley.
Don't really care about heights. There are weight classes, not height classes.
LaMotta weighed over 160 when he fought Robinson. Robinson weighed 145. That's a big difference. This isn't what Robinson weighed 5 years previously. This is what he actually weighed when it counts, when they actually fought.
And no the millionth time, Duran didn't kick Leonard's ass. He won a very competitive fight, and lost the rematch badly.

Doesn't matter what Benitez did after 24. What matters is what the total. Don't give a crap about your stupid longevity argument. If one baseball player hit more homeruns in 9 years than another does in 20, the guy who played 9 years was a better homerun hitter.

Benitez of course beat Duran. Beat Cervantes, beat Palomino. Was competitive with Leonard and Hearns. That counts for a lot.

[cfang]

If this was a huge book I’d buy it

[elmersalsa]

Wow. Where to start with all of your crap?

Well first, Duran didn't "jump" 25 pounds to fight Hagler. He weighed 156 and half to Hagler's 157. It's not like in Duran's previous fight he weighed 131. He already had three fights as a middleweight. He had not been a lightweight in 5 years. He moved up. Fighters do it all the time. You always act like he is the only guy who has ever done this.

Are you seriously comparing Duran to Robinson? Iran Barkley? That is what, Duran's 5th or 6th best win? Robinson probably has 50 bigger wins than frikkin Iran Barkley.
Don't really care about heights. There are weight classes, not height classes.
LaMotta weighed over 160 when he fought Robinson. Robinson weighed 145. That's a big difference. This isn't what Robinson weighed 5 years previously. This is what he actually weighed when it counts, when they actually fought.
And no the millionth time, Duran didn't kick Leonard's ass. He won a very competitive fight, and lost the rematch badly.

Doesn't matter what Benitez did after 24. What matters is what the total. Don't give a crap about your stupid longevity argument. If one baseball player hit more homeruns in 9 years than another does in 20, the guy who played 9 years was a better homerun hitter.

Benitez of course beat Duran. Beat Cervantes, beat Palomino. Was competitive with Leonard and Hearns. That counts for a lot.

See, your stupid argument don't match the subject. LONGEVITY got a lot to do with greatness. You said that if a man that hit as many home runs in 9 years than the man that hit in 20 years is better? Look at that stupid argument.

So that means that Ralph Kiner that won 7 straight NL home run titles, and cut his career short, was better than Hank Aaron who hit at least 20 home runs for 23 seasons straight? Aaron just win 4 NL home run titles. So, Kiner was better than Aaron, Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle. I don't see no sportswriter say that Kiner was better. No, fuuck boy, Aaron was better than Kiner because of consistency and longevity.

You see how dumb you look? Or may I say, how stupid your argument was?

Duran had to go to Marvelous weight. And he was the bravest of them all to challenge Marvelous. Sugar Ray plainly DUCKED MARVELOUS in 1982. So, did Hearns in '82. When Marvelous skills faded, that's when the bravery of Leonard showed up.

No matter how you flipped it or flopped it, Duran is associated with the lightweight class. So, did Mickey Walker that fought guys way bigger than he being a middleweight. He is associated with the middleweight class.

When has Sugar Ray Robinson or Leonard jumped to 25 pounds and beat any great or good light-heavyweight?

Was Donny Lalonde better than Iran Barkley? And if yes, how? Because Lalonde had to drop 7 pounds to fight at Leonard's stipulations.

Robinson lost to Joey Maxim at light-heavyweight. Maxim was bigger, stronger and taller. The heat, my ass! He lost. Maxim was also in the heat.

Now, you're moving the post about heights? Height is part of boxing tale of the tape, just like weight and age and reach advantage. Robinson never beat someone bigger than he. Duran did it many times.

A guy that apruptly quit at 24 cannot beat better than the great Tommy Loughran. Loughran had a long and extraordinary career. He beat more hall of famers and more world champions than Benitez.

[oogiebe]

[Ambling Alp II]

Wow. Where to start with all of your crap?

Well first, Duran didn't "jump" 25 pounds to fight Hagler. He weighed 156 and half to Hagler's 157. It's not like in Duran's previous fight he weighed 131. He already had three fights as a middleweight. He had not been a lightweight in 5 years. He moved up. Fighters do it all the time. You always act like he is the only guy who has ever done this.

Are you seriously comparing Duran to Robinson? Iran Barkley? That is what, Duran's 5th or 6th best win? Robinson probably has 50 bigger wins than frikkin Iran Barkley.
Don't really care about heights. There are weight classes, not height classes.
LaMotta weighed over 160 when he fought Robinson. Robinson weighed 145. That's a big difference. This isn't what Robinson weighed 5 years previously. This is what he actually weighed when it counts, when they actually fought.
And no the millionth time, Duran didn't kick Leonard's ass. He won a very competitive fight, and lost the rematch badly.

Doesn't matter what Benitez did after 24. What matters is what the total. Don't give a crap about your stupid longevity argument. If one baseball player hit more homeruns in 9 years than another does in 20, the guy who played 9 years was a better homerun hitter.

Benitez of course beat Duran. Beat Cervantes, beat Palomino. Was competitive with Leonard and Hearns. That counts for a lot.

See, your stupid argument don't match the subject. LONGEVITY got a lot to do with greatness. You said that if a man that hit as many home runs in 9 years than the man that hit in 20 years is better? Look at that stupid argument.

So that means that Ralph Kiner that won 7 straight NL home run titles, and cut his career short, was better than Hank Aaron who hit at least 20 home runs for 23 seasons straight? Aaron just win 4 NL home run titles. So, Kiner was better than Aaron, Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle. I don't see no sportswriter say that Kiner was better. No, fuuck boy, Aaron was better than Kiner because of consistency and longevity.

You see how dumb you look? Or may I say, how stupid your argument was?

Duran had to go to Marvelous weight. And he was the bravest of them all to challenge Marvelous. Sugar Ray plainly DUCKED MARVELOUS in 1982. So, did Hearns in '82. When Marvelous skills faded, that's when the bravery of Leonard showed up.

No matter how you flipped it or flopped it, Duran is associated with the lightweight class. So, did Mickey Walker that fought guys way bigger than he being a middleweight. He is associated with the middleweight class.

When has Sugar Ray Robinson or Leonard jumped to 25 pounds and beat any great or good light-heavyweight?

Was Donny Lalonde better than Iran Barkley? And if yes, how? Because Lalonde had to drop 7 pounds to fight at Leonard's stipulations.

Robinson lost to Joey Maxim at light-heavyweight. Maxim was bigger, stronger and taller. The heat, my ass! He lost. Maxim was also in the heat.

Now, you're moving the post about heights? Height is part of boxing tale of the tape, just like weight and age and reach advantage. Robinson never beat someone bigger than he. Duran did it many times.

A guy that apruptly quit at 24 cannot beat better than the great Tommy Loughran. Loughran had a long and extraordinary career. He beat more hall of famers and more world champions than Benitez.

Hank Aaron hot more homeruns than Ralph Kiner. I said that if the guy who played a lesser amount of time hit more homeruns, he would be a better homerun hitter. That's not what happened with Aaron and Kiner. Sorry that you somehow don't understand that.

Don't really care if you can associate Roberto Duran with the lightweight class. He wasn't a lightweight when he lost to Leonard, Benitez etc.

Leonard ducked Hagler in 1982. Wow. I mean wow.

Was Donny Lalonde better than Iran Barkley? Maybe, Who cares. Has nothing to do with anything. Never said a word about Donny Lalonde.
Never said anything about the heat with the Robinson-Maxim fight. Neber said a word about Joey Maxim.
Never said anything about Benitez being better than Tommy Loughran. Never said a word about Tommy Loughran.

[elmersalsa]

Wow. Where to start with all of your crap?

Well first, Duran didn't "jump" 25 pounds to fight Hagler. He weighed 156 and half to Hagler's 157. It's not like in Duran's previous fight he weighed 131. He already had three fights as a middleweight. He had not been a lightweight in 5 years. He moved up. Fighters do it all the time. You always act like he is the only guy who has ever done this.

Are you seriously comparing Duran to Robinson? Iran Barkley? That is what, Duran's 5th or 6th best win? Robinson probably has 50 bigger wins than frikkin Iran Barkley.
Don't really care about heights. There are weight classes, not height classes.
LaMotta weighed over 160 when he fought Robinson. Robinson weighed 145. That's a big difference. This isn't what Robinson weighed 5 years previously. This is what he actually weighed when it counts, when they actually fought.
And no the millionth time, Duran didn't kick Leonard's ass. He won a very competitive fight, and lost the rematch badly.

Doesn't matter what Benitez did after 24. What matters is what the total. Don't give a crap about your stupid longevity argument. If one baseball player hit more homeruns in 9 years than another does in 20, the guy who played 9 years was a better homerun hitter.

Benitez of course beat Duran. Beat Cervantes, beat Palomino. Was competitive with Leonard and Hearns. That counts for a lot.

See, your stupid argument don't match the subject. LONGEVITY got a lot to do with greatness. You said that if a man that hit as many home runs in 9 years than the man that hit in 20 years is better? Look at that stupid argument.

So that means that Ralph Kiner that won 7 straight NL home run titles, and cut his career short, was better than Hank Aaron who hit at least 20 home runs for 23 seasons straight? Aaron just win 4 NL home run titles. So, Kiner was better than Aaron, Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle. I don't see no sportswriter say that Kiner was better. No, fuuck boy, Aaron was better than Kiner because of consistency and longevity.

You see how dumb you look? Or may I say, how stupid your argument was?

Duran had to go to Marvelous weight. And he was the bravest of them all to challenge Marvelous. Sugar Ray plainly DUCKED MARVELOUS in 1982. So, did Hearns in '82. When Marvelous skills faded, that's when the bravery of Leonard showed up.

No matter how you flipped it or flopped it, Duran is associated with the lightweight class. So, did Mickey Walker that fought guys way bigger than he being a middleweight. He is associated with the middleweight class.

When has Sugar Ray Robinson or Leonard jumped to 25 pounds and beat any great or good light-heavyweight?

Was Donny Lalonde better than Iran Barkley? And if yes, how? Because Lalonde had to drop 7 pounds to fight at Leonard's stipulations.

Robinson lost to Joey Maxim at light-heavyweight. Maxim was bigger, stronger and taller. The heat, my ass! He lost. Maxim was also in the heat.

Now, you're moving the post about heights? Height is part of boxing tale of the tape, just like weight and age and reach advantage. Robinson never beat someone bigger than he. Duran did it many times.

A guy that apruptly quit at 24 cannot beat better than the great Tommy Loughran. Loughran had a long and extraordinary career. He beat more hall of famers and more world champions than Benitez.

Hank Aaron hot more homeruns than Ralph Kiner. I said that if the guy who played a lesser amount of time hit more homeruns, he would be a better homerun hitter. That's not what happened with Aaron and Kiner. Sorry that you somehow don't understand that.

Don't really care if you can associate Roberto Duran with the lightweight class. He wasn't a lightweight when he lost to Leonard, Benitez etc.

Leonard ducked Hagler in 1982. Wow. I mean wow.

Was Donny Lalonde better than Iran Barkley? Maybe, Who cares. Has nothing to do with anything. Never said a word about Donny Lalonde.
Never said anything about the heat with the Robinson-Maxim fight. Neber said a word about Joey Maxim.
Never said anything about Benitez being better than Tommy Loughran. Never said a word about Tommy Loughran.

It's impossible to have 755 home runs in a short period of time like Ralph Kiner career got. His career was cut short even though he won 7 straight NL home run titles. That doesn't make him better than a guy that was consistently hitting home runs for 23 seasons like Aaron did.

Sandy Koufax did a lot in the short period of time. But, Walter Johnson, Christy Mathewson and Nolan Ryan to name a few, had longer careers and were more consistent. It's impossible for Koufax to have the same amount of strikeouts as Ryan in that period of his dominance.

Duran is a lightweight that jumped 12 pounds and whupped Leonard. When did Leonard jumped 12 pounds to beat someone extraordinary as he? In his prime. Because Marvelous was already in decline.

And yes, he ducked Marvelous in '82. He waited 5 years to see Hagler to decline his skills. That's a strategy, not a sign of a real fighter.

When did Benitez, or Hearns or Marvelous or even Leonard jumped 12 pounds to beat a great great boxer in his prime? When?

Mickey Walker is associated with the middleweight class. He lost to bigger men. Nobody says nothing about his losses. But, when it comes to Duran? It's like people forgot that he was below welterweight for 13 years and his losses at higher weight classes should doom him.

Well none of the other 4 kings went up in weight to beat someone bigger, stronger, younger and and in their prime. That's why Duran is so remarkable.

Whoever disagrees, wave your hand.

[Ambling Alp II]

Your sheer inability to comprehend the most simple things ever fails to amaze me. Never said Ralph Kiner was better than Hann Arron. I said if a guy, hits more homeruns in a shorter period of time than another guy wh0 played longer who hit less, the guy player who had the shorter career was a better homerun hitter in this case. Certainly wasn't talking about Hank Aaron. Can you seriously not comprehend this?

Let me make it simple for you. Ralph Kiner hit 369 homeruns in 9 years. Chris spier hit 112 in 19 years. Ralph Kiner was a better homerun hitter than Chris Spier, even though he had a shorter career. Can you comprehend that?

Leonard had much less experience at middleweight when he beat Hagler than Duran did at welterweight when he won the welterweight title.
And he had one fight in the previous 5 years. Which is why so many people thought Halger would crush Leonard. Duran never did anything like that.
Absolutely absurd to say Léonard ducked Hagler in 1982.
Please name examples when a guy ducked another guy because he didn't move up two weight classes to fight him. Love to see them.

We are supposed to be talking about Wilfred Benitez, but once again you go off on one of your crazy tangents.

[elmersalsa]

Your sheer inability to comprehend the most simple things ever fails to amaze me. Never said Ralph Kiner was better than Hann Arron. I said if a guy, hits more homeruns in a shorter period of time than another guy wh0 played longer who hit less, the guy player who had the shorter career was a better homerun hitter in this case. Certainly wasn't talking about Hank Aaron. Can you seriously not comprehend this?

Let me make it simple for you. Ralph Kiner hit 369 homeruns in 9 years. Chris spier hit 112 in 1 years. Ralph Kiner was a better homerun hitter than Chris Spier, even though he had a shorter career. Can you comprehend that?

Leonard had much less experience at middleweight when he beat Hagler than Duran did at welterweight when he won the welterweight title.
And he had one fight in the previous 5 years. Which is why so many people thought Halger would crush Leonard. Duran never did anything like that.
Absolutely absurd to say Léonard ducked Hagler in 1982.
Please name examples when a guy ducked another guy because he didn't move up two weight classes to fight him. Love to see them.

We are supposed to be talking about Wilfred Benitez, but once again you go off on one of your crazy tangents.

Chris Spier was better according to what you wrote, but, I guess that you didn't meant that.

The argument was that Benitez was better than Loughran. Loughran was better.

The other argument was that Benitez was done at 24 and you said that there should not be 67 boxers all time pound per pound great boxers better than he. I think that was the original argument.

The answer is, yes! In my view, my view, I see 67 boxers better than Benitez. His prime was a short 6 years. Other fighters had longer primes, example, Alexis Arguello, who started young as Benitez, but lasted longer and had much more fights.

Benitez would have been much better if taken care of himself much more. He didn't, that's a fact, and we should all deal with it.

Now, about Sugar Ray Leonard. He never fought someone above his weight class that was a great and bigger than he. He never beat someone bigger, faster, stronger, taller, younger and in his prime. At least with Marvelous he had advantages in height, reach, and age.

Duran fighting middleweight boxers was like Mickey Walker fighting heavyweight boxers. Did Leonard fought Light-heavyweights?

And yes! He ducked Marvelous in his prime. Duran didn't. He went down to the nitty gritty. That's why Duran is more revered and considered much greater fighter than those bigger guys that beat him. Those guys didn't had the guts to go over at least 10 pounds and challenge someone as great as them. See the point?

[Ambling Alp II]

I didn't say that Benitez was better than Loughran. That is you who keeps bringing Loughran up. I have been saying that you have Benitez too low at #68.
Benitez turned pro at 15 and beat Cervantes when he was 17. What difference does it make if his prime was from when he was 17 to 24, or if it was from when he was 23 to 30? It doesn't at all.

Leonard didn't duck Hagler. Thats absurd. A welterweight isn't expected to take on the middleweight champion. Occasionally he will, but rarely. Nobody expected Leonard to fight Hagler in 1982.

Leonard was a little younger than Hagler. So what? He had 1 fight in the previous 5 years. That dwarfs Leonard's slight advantages. Yet with all of Halger's advantages, Leonard still beat Hagler in 1987. Hagler was a bit past his prime, but certainly closer to his prime than Leonard was to his. Which is why so many people thought Hagler would destroy Leonard.
Again, don't care about height, don't care about reach. There are weight classes. Not height classes or reach classes.

Duran fighting Hagler wasn't at all like Walker fighting heavyweights. Duran had gradually moved up in weight and weighed about the same as the middleweights that he was fighting. Walker was outweighed by 20 or more pounds in some of his fights.
Duran didn't weigh 135 when he lost to Leonard, Benitez, Halger etc.. He weighed about the same as them. Get that through your thick head.
Stop bringing up irrelevant comments about Loughran or Hagler etc. This is about Benitez.

[elmersalsa]

I didn't say that Benitez was better than Loughran. That is you who keeps bringing Loughran up. I have been saying that you have Benitez too low at #68.
Benitez turned pro at 15 and beat Cervantes when he was 17. What difference does it make if his prime was from when he was 17 to 24, or if it was from when he was 23 to 30? It doesn't at all.

Leonard didn't duck Hagler. Thats absurd. A welterweight isn't expected to take on the middleweight champion. Occasionally he will, but rarely. Nobody expected Leonard to fight Hagler in 1982.

Leonard was a little younger than Hagler. So what? He had 1 fight in the previous 5 years. That dwarfs Leonard's slight advantages. Yet with all of Halger's advantages, Leonard still beat Hagler in 1987. Hagler was a bit past his prime, but certainly closer to his prime than Leonard was to his. Which is why so many people thought Hagler would destroy Leonard.
Again, don't care about height, don't care about reach. There are weight classes. Not height classes or reach classes.

Duran fighting Hagler wasn't at all like Walker fighting heavyweights. Duran had gradually moved up in weight and weighed about the same as the middleweights that he was fighting. Walker was outweighed by 20 or more pounds in some of his fights.
Duran didn't weigh 135 when he lost to Leonard, Benitez, Halger etc.. He weighed about the same as them. Get that through your thick head.
Stop bringing up irrelevant comments about Loughran or Hagler etc. This is about Benitez.

Leonard ducked Marvelous. It was seen on national TV with Howard Cossell in attendance. Then, when he saw Marvelous deteriorating in skills, THEN, THEN, HE MADE THE CHALLENGE. That's why I don't take that 1 fight in 5 years seriously. It ain't impressive in this view.

Much more impressive, like we argued before, like it or not, was a washed up former lightweight king at 37 years old beating a much stronger, taller, younger, bigger and in his prime and that stopped the great Thomas Hearns.

That's like Sugar Ray at 37, beating a light-heavyweight in his prime that was bigger, stronger, younger and taller than he. At 37, Leonard was done!!! Absolutely done!

You can talk all that crap that Duran "gradually" make weight. Still, he was a lightweight. His speed and movement wasn't there, and didn't had the youth/age advantages. Of course he got to lose some fights. He even lost fights to guys that could not carry his jockstrap, but they were bigger, stronger, taller, younger and faster than he.

Benitez was done at 24. It doesn't matter. At 24, you should be still be in it. Alexis Arguello started almost his pro career as young as he. So did Duran and Gato Gonzalez. So did Salvador Sanchez. So did Ted "Kid" Lewis.

A guy that at 24 was done and didn't do a godamned thing after that cannot be top 50. That's why there are 67 boxers that were better than Benitez. See the point?

[Ambling Alp II]

More babble. Sure could have fought Hagler in 1982. You could do that with anyone. Why didn't Duran fight Hagler in 1982? Why didn't Hearns? He did fight Hagler and beat him. It really happened. Deal with it.

It does matter that Duran wasn't a lightweight when he fought his big fights. It's reality. It's what actually happened.

He weighed 154 1/2 to Leonard's 145 when he fought Leonard the first time.
Duran and Leonard were each 146 for the second fight.
Duran and Benitez were each 152 for their fight.

Those are fair fights. Comparing that to what Mickey walker was doing is absurd.
Walker was 174 to Schmeling's 188.
Walker was 170 to Uzcudun's 197.
Walker was 169 1/2 to Sharkey's 198 1/2.
Walker was 168 to Wright's 210.

Walker had real weight disadvantages against these guys. Not fake disadvantages that Duran had.

You do realize that almost anyone can fight in their late 30s and 40s if they really want to? Many choose not to. When your career legacy hangs on a win over Iran Barkley, maybe you are overrated.


As for Benitez's age, it frikkin doesn't matter. What matters is what he actually did. Are we now saying that Gato Gonzalez was better because he fought longer?

Btw, Benitez fought longer than Sanchez. Won more fights. Beat better opponents.

[elmersalsa]

More babble. Sure could have fought Hagler in 1982. You could do that with anyone. Why didn't Duran fight Hagler in 1982? Why didn't Hearns? He did fight Hagler and beat him. It really happened. Deal with it.

It does matter that Duran wasn't a lightweight when he fought his big fights. It's reality. It's what actually happened.

He weighed 154 1/2 to Leonard's 145 when he fought Leonard the first time.
Duran and Leonard were each 146 for the second fight.
Duran and Benitez were each 152 for their fight.

Those are fair fights. Comparing that to what Mickey walker was doing is absurd.
Walker was 174 to Schmeling's 188.
Walker was 170 to Uzcudun's 197.
Walker was 169 1/2 to Sharkey's 198 1/2.
Walker was 168 to Wright's 210.

Walker had real weight disadvantages against these guys. Not fake disadvantages that Duran had.

You do realize that almost anyone can fight in their late 30s and 40s if they really want to? Many choose not to. When your career legacy hangs on a win over Iran Barkley, maybe you are overrated.


As for Benitez's age, it frikkin doesn't matter. What matters is what he actually did. Are we now saying that Gato Gonzalez was better because he fought longer?

Btw, Benitez fought longer than Sanchez. Won more fights. Beat better opponents.

You don't want to admit that Sugar Ray ducked Marvelous in '82. That's fine with me. I and many people know that Sugar Ray indeed ducked him.

Marvelous asked him for a big payday and told Sugar Ray "We could do this!"

What Sugar Ray did? Waited, waited and waited until the deteorirating of Marvelous was evident. Marvelous was fighting one fight per year since 1985. He was not the same.

That overrated "one fight in five years" is much more overrated than anything else I have seen in boxing. The other overrated thing was defeating a guy for two world crowns against Donny Lalonde, and Lalonde had to shed 7 pounds. This is how Sugar Ray is overrated by many. After 1982, his career was a complete manufacturated joke. Simple as that!

Duran had to fight bigger guys. It was the same weight, but you probably don't understand, (because you don't want to understand), that the guy below going up in weight would not be as effective as in his natural weight. That happens to everyone that is not named Roy Jones, Jr or Thomas Hearns. Both of them were more lethal going up.

Did Leonard beat someone as great, and in his prime, as good as he in another weight class? Nope!

Did Hearns beat someone as great as he, and in his prime, going up in class? Nope! Ask Marvelous!

Did Benitez did that? Nope! The closest to great was Carlos Palomino who was not considered a great boxer.

Duran jumped 12 pounds and beat a great one.
Duran jumped 25 pounds and beat a bigger guy that was younger, taller, and stronger at the washed up age of 37. Did Leonard do that? Marvelous? Hearns? Benitez? That's why Duran is so remarkable and ranked over the guys that beat him.

Duran's career didn't need Iran Barkley. He already was a legend way before the Leonard fight in Montreal. Each of his great wins in the 80s were icing on the cake. And what a career it was!

You don't realize that age is a factor in a boxer. Not everyone could fight into their 40s if they want to. Some boxers are done before 30.

Benitez cannot be considered top 50. No way at all! You will see as the ranking goes, at my pace, that he surely wasn't a top 50 Fighter. He was done at 24 due to his irresponsibility to train and take the sport seriously.

That he fought longer than Salvador Sanchez? Duh! Sanchez died at 23, and I don't think if he was alive, his career would be abrupt done at 24 like Benitez. He seemed that he had much more left.

Benitez is a great fighter. That's why I have mentioned him in the top 100. But, everything at his proper perspective. Of course, he can't be top 20. Neither a top 40. Top 50 is arguable for some. Outside the top 50? Is the best that we can do for him to rate him. And it was justified because of his unwillingness to take the sport seriously and to train when it was needed it.

O