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Re: Boxrec Ratings - Read first before commenting on the ratings
Posted: 18 Dec 2008, 07:06
by Blue
JCS wrote:sharpei_louis wrote:JCS wrote:You do understand that a fighter has a point total, regardless of what division he is in, or where he has fought, correct? As long as that fighter is active, a point total will be calculated. If Pacquiao was placed at Heavyweight, he would have a point total, and probably be ranked in the Top 50.
The system depends on norms, and it also depends on its viewers thinking outside the box just a bit on determining why things are how they are.
I understand, but my question is what is the point of producing ratings that don't have any bearing on what is happening? I'm as prepared as the next man to think outside the box, but why? What is the point of the ratings? If the viewer has to apply this much lateral thinking I'd suggest they already have their own ratings. The point of a ratings system, and a computerised one is, as far as I am concerned, to show the layperson an accurate perspective of the state of play in the sport. The boxrec doesn't achieve this, and IMO that renders it a futile system.
Who's to say what accurately portrays what is happening in boxing?
Official results are what accurately portray what is happening in boxing; that is the norm.
You are straying too far outside the box with subjective criteria’s of adding & subtracting
points for activity/inactivity, age/diminishing skills, hometown/promoters etc., etc.
It is too vague to be applied across the board like a cookie cutting sheet.
AFAIK, Sharpie is talking about traditional ratings which is a blue print demonstrating where
the boxer stands on a scale in relation to his competitors, while BoxRec ratings are more
equivalent to a handicapping report in horse racing in attempting to predict the future.
We are talking apples and oranges
Re: Boxrec Ratings - Read first before commenting on the ratings
Posted: 18 Dec 2008, 09:56
by JCS
It's pretty convenient to take such a basic opinion on what the system should be while wanting it to accurately portray what's happening in boxing. I agree on some of your points, but inactivity is a necessity, and if it were up to me, I would make it more complex than it already is.
You can't have both.
Re: Boxrec Ratings - Read first before commenting on the ratings
Posted: 18 Dec 2008, 14:04
by JCS
Dawson/Tarver II is 5 stars :)
Re: Boxrec Ratings - Read first before commenting on the ratings
Posted: 18 Dec 2008, 14:14
by m1kee50
JCS wrote:Placing Manny at 140 is something an editor did...
I can understand that there are three ways of rating pacman.... last division fought in (welterweight), editor's opinion (wherever, in practice) and declared intention (depends on source, to an extent).
As I said earlier, is every fighter given this treatment, or are they left where they last fought? If that is the case, Pacman should be rated in the last division he fought, same as any club fighter.
And to avoid all this confusion why not rename the lb 4 lb ratings on the homepage the 'Division Dominance Rankings', so people know what they actually are...
Re: Boxrec Ratings - Read first before commenting on the ratings
Posted: 19 Dec 2008, 02:54
by Blue
JCS wrote:It's pretty convenient to take such a basic opinion on what the system should be while wanting it to accurately portray what's happening in boxing. I agree on some of your points, but inactivity is a necessity, and if it were up to me, I would make it more complex than it already is.
You can't have both.
Yes you can have both;
But you can’t label them the same, one is an apple, the other is an orange.
As mentioned previously in this thread, a rating in itself is an attempted quantification of
a situation. To me, that means it has to be based on fact, which are official results that
portray what has actually happened. It is totally objective and fair to all.
This was the stated purpose of rankings when Nate Fleischer and his buddy Tex Rickard
began publishing ratings over 85 yrs ago. But it has been manipulated and distorted with
subjective reasoning by the different world bodies and boxing magazines to suit their
own agenda.
By using matchmaker tools you distort reality because although the concept of inactivity
is helpful in picking a future winner, it has no bearing on who deserves a title shot. It is
fallible because humans are unique and cannot be stereotyped in such a way.
Sugar Ray Leonard was inactive for 3 years before he took the undisputed middleweight
title from Marvin Hagler.
While BoxRec ratings may be helpful to matchmakers and bettors, it is not ratings in the
traditional sense. My concern is when the casual fan accesses BoxRec records and checks
them with the ratings to find so many boxers rated below the opponents they’ve previously
beaten. All they see is more smoke and mirrors and become cynical about our motives.
Joel Julio, who is rated @ #14, TKO’d 9th rated Cornelius Bundrage last year and has since
only lost to 8th rated Sergiy Dzinziruk. Meanwhile Bundrage has been beaten by 12th ranked
Grady Brewer. So by beating lesser ranked fighters, he has erased his two losses last year
and is rated higher than both of his conquerors.
It-doesn’t-make-sense. 
Re: Boxrec Ratings - Read first before commenting on the ratings
Posted: 19 Dec 2008, 07:16
by sharpei_louis
I agree with Blue wholeheartedly; as I've said I've no major gripe with the divisional lists, the system means that sometimes a fighter can fall too far IMO (DLH, for all his shortcomings against Pacman, surely can't be below Moore and Bundrage now at light middle can he, given he last fought at welter?)
My main problem is the p-4-p list, which by it's definition is supposed to give the casual observer an idea of who is simply 'the best'. There are too many strictures placed on this list - restrictions that mean JMM is above Manny at the moment, who himself is 5th in the list. Surely the proof is in the pudding, and if the p-4-p list is widely accepted to be wrong, then it must mean that the system being applied to it is wrong.
Re: Boxrec Ratings - Read first before commenting on the ratings
Posted: 19 Dec 2008, 07:17
by sharpei_louis
Blue wrote:JCS wrote:It's pretty convenient to take such a basic opinion on what the system should be while wanting it to accurately portray what's happening in boxing. I agree on some of your points, but inactivity is a necessity, and if it were up to me, I would make it more complex than it already is.
You can't have both.
Yes you can have both;
But you can’t label them the same, one is an apple, the other is an orange.
As mentioned previously in this thread, a rating in itself is an attempted quantification of
a situation. To me, that means it has to be based on fact, which are official results that
portray what has actually happened. It is totally objective and fair to all.
This was the stated purpose of rankings when Nate Fleischer and his buddy Tex Rickard
began publishing ratings over 85 yrs ago. But it has been manipulated and distorted with
subjective reasoning by the different world bodies and boxing magazines to suit their
own agenda.
By using matchmaker tools you distort reality because although the concept of inactivity
is helpful in picking a future winner, it has no bearing on who deserves a title shot. It is
fallible because humans are unique and cannot be stereotyped in such a way.
Sugar Ray Leonard was inactive for 3 years before he took the undisputed middleweight
title from Marvin Hagler.
While BoxRec ratings may be helpful to matchmakers and bettors, it is not ratings in the
traditional sense. My concern is when the casual fan accesses BoxRec records and checks
them with the ratings to find so many boxers rated below the opponents they’ve previously
beaten. All they see is more smoke and mirrors and become cynical about our motives.
Joel Julio, who is rated @ #14, TKO’d 9th rated Cornelius Bundrage last year and has since
only lost to 8th rated Sergiy Dzinziruk. Meanwhile Bundrage has been beaten by 12th ranked
Grady Brewer. So by beating lesser ranked fighters, he has erased his two losses last year
and is rated higher than both of his conquerors.
It-doesn’t-make-sense.
Great post IMO by the way.
Re: Boxrec Ratings - Read first before commenting on the ratings
Posted: 19 Dec 2008, 12:18
by jujigatame
By using matchmaker tools you distort reality because although the concept of inactivity
is helpful in picking a future winner, it has no bearing on who deserves a title shot.
I think most people (myself included) would disagree with this sentiment.
Joel Julio, who is rated @ #14, TKO’d 9th rated Cornelius Bundrage last year and has since
only lost to 8th rated Sergiy Dzinziruk. Meanwhile Bundrage has been beaten by 12th ranked
Grady Brewer. So by beating lesser ranked fighters, he has erased his two losses last year
and is rated higher than both of his conquerors.
It-doesn’t-make-sense.
Firstly, this was probably at least in part due to the "home promoter bonus/penalty" thing that was put in recently. My guess is that Bundrage got a big boost (more than was deserved) from his KO over Baysangurov because he was fighting away from home. I am one of the biggest detractors of this new bonus/penalty feature, I think it has damaged the ratings significantly.
Secondly, it's easy for The Ring to use "blocking" to make sure guys are the order of who-beat-who because they only rank 10 fighters per division. When you're attempting to rank hundreds, it just doesn't work and would lead to a complete mess.
Re: Boxrec Ratings - Read first before commenting on the ratings
Posted: 19 Dec 2008, 12:19
by JCS
Blue wrote:
Joel Julio, who is rated @ #14, TKO’d 9th rated Cornelius Bundrage last year and has since
only lost to 8th rated Sergiy Dzinziruk.
Meanwhile Bundrage has been beaten by 12th ranked
Grady Brewer. So
by beating lesser ranked fighters, he has erased his two losses last year
and is rated higher than both of his conquerors.
It-doesn’t-make-sense.
[/color]
Until you've sat down and tried to make a computerized rating system, you don't realize that situations like these are very difficult to get a handle on. The IBO tries to protect against situations like this... then again, they have Jermain Taylor 1st at 168 and had Tarver ahead of Hopkins at 175 after Hopkins lost to Calzaghe.
In essence, you're arguing that we scrap the computer rating system, because to handle your situation, would likely cause a variety of new problems.
Re: Boxrec Ratings - Read first before commenting on the ratings
Posted: 21 Dec 2008, 03:11
by JCS
Score one for the home promoter advantage today.. Holyfield/Valuev
Re: Boxrec Ratings - Read first before commenting on the ratings
Posted: 22 Dec 2008, 02:02
by Blue
jujigatame wrote: By using matchmaker tools you distort reality because although the concept of inactivity
is helpful in picking a future winner, it has no bearing on who deserves a title shot.
I think most people (myself included) would disagree with this sentiment.
Pure speculation; maybe in your crowd, but not in mine. If we are going generalise,
I think most people (myself included) think all ratings are politically biased.
jujigatame wrote:Joel Julio, who is rated @ #14, TKO’d 9th rated Cornelius Bundrage last year and has since
only lost to 8th rated Sergiy Dzinziruk. Meanwhile Bundrage has been beaten by 12th ranked
Grady Brewer. So by beating lesser ranked fighters, he has erased his two losses last year
and is rated higher than both of his conquerors.
It-doesn’t-make-sense.
Firstly, this was probably at least in part due to the "home promoter bonus/penalty" thing that was put in recently. My guess is that Bundrage got a big boost (more than was deserved) from his KO over Baysangurov because he was fighting away from home. I am one of the biggest detractors of this new bonus/penalty feature, I think it has damaged the ratings significantly.
Secondly, it's easy for The Ring to use "blocking" to make sure guys are the order of who-beat-who because they only rank 10 fighters per division. When you're attempting to rank hundreds, it just doesn't work and would lead to a complete mess.
The “home promoter bonus/penalty" was probably copied from a handicap page for football or
some other team sport. So why not label it "The BoxRec Handicap Page" so the casual fan is not misled?
There are only 5 levels of boxing at most, and only the top level needs to be rated in a linear fashion if
you are demonstrating who the most qualified fighters are.
The traditional blocking called defining fights is about becoming a name by beating an established name.
So how does The Ring justify ranking Kirkland 10th in the 154’s?
Re: Boxrec Ratings - Read first before commenting on the ratings
Posted: 22 Dec 2008, 02:07
by Blue
JCS wrote:Blue wrote:
Joel Julio, who is rated @ #14, TKO’d 9th rated Cornelius Bundrage last year and has since
only lost to 8th rated Sergiy Dzinziruk.
Meanwhile Bundrage has been beaten by 12th ranked
Grady Brewer. So
by beating lesser ranked fighters, he has erased his two losses last year
and is rated higher than both of his conquerors.
It-doesn’t-make-sense.
[/color]
Until you've sat down and tried to make a computerized rating system, you don't realize that situations like these are very difficult to get a handle on. The IBO tries to protect against situations like this... then again, they have Jermain Taylor 1st at 168 and had Tarver ahead of Hopkins at 175 after Hopkins lost to Calzaghe.
In essence, you're arguing that we scrap the computer rating system, because to handle your situation, would likely cause a variety of new problems.
You don’t have to scrap anything, just don’t call them ratings, because there not.
What new problems would it cause?
Re: Boxrec Ratings - Read first before commenting on the ratings
Posted: 22 Dec 2008, 08:25
by computerrank
Just to give all an idea, what such a ranking would look like:
Only rules:
- bouts only count in the regarded division
- a newcomer is append at the end of the list
- the winner gets the rank of the loser, if this is an improvement for him
- the loser then is ranked just behind the winner
- draws change nothing
- after 18 month of inactivity a boxer is dropped from the list
Code: Select all
Heavyweight
+---------------+-------------+-----+
| first_name | last_name | r |
+---------------+-------------+-----+
| Wladimir | Klitschko | 1 |
| Alexander | Povetkin | 2 |
| Chris | Byrd | 3 |
| Vitali | Klitschko | 4 |
| Samuel | Peter | 5 |
| James | Toney | 6 |
| Ruslan | Chagaev | 7 |
| Nikolay | Valuev | 8 |
| Larry | Donald | 9 |
| Sultan | Ibragimov | 10 |
| Evander | Holyfield | 11 |
| John | Ruiz | 12 |
| Oleg | Maskaev | 13 |
| Hasim | Rahman | 14 |
| Joseph | Chingangu | 15 |
| Osborne | Machimana | 16 |
| Corrie | Sanders | 17 |
| Shannon | Briggs | 18 |
| Serguei | Lyakhovich | 19 |
| Lamon | Brewster | 20 |
| Eddie | Chambers | 21 |
| Calvin | Brock | 22 |
| Denis | Boytsov | 23 |
| Robert | Hawkins | 24 |
| Dominick | Guinn | 25 |
| Darrel | Madison | 26 |
| Zuri | Lawrence | 27 |
| Jameel | McCline | 28 |
| Kali | Meehan | 29 |
| DaVarryl | Williamson | 30 |
+---------------+-------------+-----+
Cruiserweight
+----------------+--------------+-----+
| first_name | last_name | r |
+----------------+--------------+-----+
| Tomasz | Adamek | 1 |
| Steve | Cunningham | 2 |
| Krzysztof | Wlodarczyk | 3 |
| BJ | Flores | 4 |
| Guillermo | Jones | 5 |
| Firat | Arslan | 6 |
| Darnell | Wilson | 7 |
| Kelvin | Davis | 8 |
| David | Haye | 9 |
| Jean Marc | Mormeck | 10 |
| O'Neil | Bell | 11 |
| Enzo | Maccarinelli | 12 |
| Wayne | Braithwaite | 13 |
| Yoan Pablo | Hernandez | 14 |
| Mohamed | Azzaoui | 15 |
| Vitaliy | Rusal | 16 |
| Jozsef | Nagy | 17 |
| Zack | Mwekassa | 18 |
| Moyoyo | Mensah | 19 |
| Mark | Hobson | 20 |
| Dean | Francis | 21 |
| Troy | Ross | 22 |
| Darren | Stubbs | 23 |
| Scott | Brookes | 24 |
| Anders | Hugger | 25 |
| Kelly | Oliver | 26 |
| Paul | Keir | 27 |
| Hastings | Rasani | 28 |
| Marco | Huck | 29 |
| Jean Marc | Monrose | 30 |
+----------------+--------------+-----+
Light Heavyweight
+-------------+--------------+-----+
| first_name | last_name | r |
+-------------+--------------+-----+
| Joe | Calzaghe | 1 |
| Bernard | Hopkins | 2 |
| Chad | Dawson | 3 |
| Antonio | Tarver | 4 |
| Clinton | Woods | 5 |
| Glen | Johnson | 6 |
| Roy | Jones Jr | 7 |
| Zsolt | Erdei | 8 |
| Reggie | Johnson | 9 |
| Tavoris | Cloud | 10 |
| Julio Cesar | Gonzalez | 11 |
| Beibut | Shumenov | 12 |
| Montell | Griffin | 13 |
| Tomasz | Adamek | 14 |
| Hugo Hernan | Garay | 15 |
| Yuri | Barashian | 16 |
| Thomas | Ulrich | 17 |
| Danny | Green | 18 |
| Stipe | Drews | 19 |
| Silvio | Branco | 20 |
| Dean | Francis | 21 |
| Courtney | Fry | 22 |
| Tony | Salam | 23 |
| Ovill | McKenzie | 24 |
| Tyrone | Wright | 25 |
| Paul | David | 26 |
| Nathan | Cleverly | 27 |
| Tony | Oakey | 28 |
| Shon | Davies | 29 |
| Peter | Haymer | 30 |
+-------------+--------------+-----+
Super Middleweight
+-------------------+---------------+-----+
| first_name | last_name | r |
+-------------------+---------------+-----+
| Joe | Calzaghe | 1 |
| Mikkel | Kessler | 2 |
| Markus | Beyer | 3 |
| Danilo | Haussler | 4 |
| Karo | Murat | 5 |
| Cristian | Sanavia | 6 |
| Anthony | Mundine | 7 |
| Lucian | Bute | 8 |
| Carl | Froch | 9 |
| Sergey | Tatevosyan | 10 |
| Rudy | Markussen | 11 |
| Jermain | Taylor | 12 |
| Jeff | Lacy | 13 |
| Robin | Reid | 14 |
| Alejandro | Berrio | 15 |
| Librado | Andrade | 16 |
| Yusaf | Mack | 17 |
| Lajuan | Simon | 18 |
| Karoly | Balzsay | 19 |
| Ruben Eduardo | Acosta | 20 |
| Denis | Inkin | 21 |
| Nestor Fabian | Casanova | 22 |
| Martin Abel | Bruer | 23 |
| Dimitri | Sartison | 24 |
| Isaac | Rodrigues | 25 |
| Pablo Daniel | Zamora Nievas | 26 |
| Marcos Silvano | Diaz | 27 |
| Robert | Stieglitz | 28 |
| Lukas | Wilaschek | 29 |
| Juergen | Braehmer | 30 |
+-------------------+---------------+-----+
Middleweight
+-------------------+------------+-----+
| first_name | last_name | r |
+-------------------+------------+-----+
| Kelly | Pavlik | 1 |
| Jermain | Taylor | 2 |
| Arthur | Abraham | 3 |
| Edison | Miranda | 4 |
| Wayne | Elcock | 5 |
| John | Duddy | 6 |
| Howard | Eastman | 7 |
| Khoren | Gevor | 8 |
| Felix | Sturm | 9 |
| Sebastian | Sylvester | 10 |
| Francois | Bastient | 11 |
| Thierry | Karl | 12 |
| Franck | Mezaache | 13 |
| Ronald | Wright | 14 |
| Sam | Soliman | 15 |
| Raymond | Joval | 16 |
| Javier | Castillejo | 17 |
| Mariano Natalio | Carrera | 18 |
| Evans | Ashira | 19 |
| Joe | Greene | 20 |
| Francisco Antonio | Mora | 21 |
| Amin | Asikainen | 22 |
| Dmitry | Pirog | 23 |
| Darren | Barker | 24 |
| Steven | Bendall | 25 |
| Gary | Lockett | 26 |
| Ryan | Rhodes | 27 |
| Marco Antonio | Rubio | 28 |
| Darren | McDermott | 29 |
| Prince | Arron | 30 |
+-------------------+------------+-----+
Light Middleweight
+----------------+--------------+-----+
| first_name | last_name | r |
+----------------+--------------+-----+
| Shane | Mosley | 1 |
| Fernando | Vargas | 2 |
| Sergio Gabriel | Martinez | 3 |
| Sergiy | Dzinziruk | 4 |
| Pablo | Navascues | 5 |
| Jamie | Moore | 6 |
| Vernon | Forrest | 7 |
| Sergio | Mora | 8 |
| Michele | Piccirillo | 9 |
| Michael | Jones | 10 |
| Lukas | Konecny | 11 |
| Serge | Vigne | 12 |
| Wayne | Alexander | 13 |
| Attila | Kovacs | 14 |
| Grzegorz | Proksa | 15 |
| Christophe | Canclaux | 16 |
| Anthony | Small | 17 |
| Steve | Conway | 18 |
| Ryan | Rhodes | 19 |
| Vincent | Vuma | 20 |
| Badru | Lusambya | 21 |
| Thomas | Povlsen | 22 |
| Carlos | Donquiz | 23 |
| Reda | Zam Zam | 24 |
| Jimmy | Colas | 25 |
| Sebastien | Madani | 26 |
| Alban | Mothie | 27 |
| Damien | Bertu | 28 |
| Amaro | Dialo | 29 |
| Hamlet | Petrosyan | 30 |
+----------------+--------------+-----+
Welterweight
+----------------------+---------------+-----+
| first_name | last_name | r |
+----------------------+---------------+-----+
| Floyd | Mayweather Jr | 1 |
| Jackson | Osei Bonsu | 2 |
| Carlos Manuel | Baldomir | 3 |
| Antonio | Margarito | 4 |
| Miguel Angel | Cotto | 5 |
| Joshua | Clottey | 6 |
| Zab | Judah | 7 |
| Alfonso | Gomez | 8 |
| Arturo | Gatti | 9 |
| Thomas | Damgaard | 10 |
| Ricky | Hatton | 11 |
| Shane | Mosley | 12 |
| Luis | Collazo | 13 |
| Oktay | Urkal | 14 |
| Yuriy | Nuzhnenko | 15 |
| Vyacheslav | Senchenko | 16 |
| Frederic | Klose | 17 |
| Andre | Berto | 18 |
| Frank | Shabani | 19 |
| Roman | Seliverstov | 20 |
| Michel | Trabant | 21 |
| Rafal | Jackiewicz | 22 |
| Vasile | Surcica | 23 |
| Bongani | Mwelase | 24 |
| Selcuk | Aydin | 25 |
| Lucky | Lewele | 26 |
| Alpaslan | Aguzum | 27 |
| Isaac | Hlatshwayo | 28 |
| Joseph | Makaringe | 29 |
| Lamont | Peterson | 30 |
+----------------------+---------------+-----+
Light Welterweight
+-----------------+--------------+-----+
| first_name | last_name | r |
+-----------------+--------------+-----+
| Ricky | Hatton | 1 |
| Kendall | Holt | 2 |
| Ricardo | Torres | 3 |
| Isaac | Hlatshwayo | 4 |
| Andriy | Kotelnik | 5 |
| Gavin | Rees | 6 |
| Herman | Ngoudjo | 7 |
| Souleymane | M'baye | 8 |
| Timothy | Bradley | 9 |
| Junior | Witter | 10 |
| Kaiser | Mabuza | 11 |
| Samuel | Malinga | 12 |
| Jason | Naule | 13 |
| Lawrence | Ngobeni | 14 |
| David | Barnes | 15 |
| Ted | Bami | 16 |
| Emmanuel Lartei | Lartey | 17 |
| Marcos Rene | Maidana | 18 |
| Manuel | Garnica | 19 |
| Carlos | Maussa | 20 |
| Vivian | Harris | 21 |
| Gianluca | Branco | 22 |
| Demetrius | Hopkins | 23 |
| Lamont | Peterson | 24 |
| Rogelio | Castaneda Jr | 25 |
| Jose Luis | Castillo | 26 |
| Paul | Malignaggi | 27 |
| Alex | de Jesus | 28 |
| Arturo | Morua | 29 |
| Almazbek | Raiymkulov | 30 |
+-----------------+--------------+-----+
Lightweight
+-----------------------+------------------+-----+
| first_name | last_name | r |
+-----------------------+------------------+-----+
| Juan Manuel | Marquez | 1 |
| Joel | Casamayor | 2 |
| Diego | Corrales | 3 |
| Rolando | Reyes | 4 |
| Edner | Cherry | 5 |
| Stevie | Johnston | 6 |
| Nate | Campbell | 7 |
| Juan | Diaz | 8 |
| Acelino | Freitas | 9 |
| Aldo Nazareno | Rios | 10 |
| Julio | Diaz | 11 |
| Jesus | Chavez | 12 |
| Yuri | Romanov | 13 |
| Jonathan | Thaxton | 14 |
| Juan Carlos | Diaz Melero | 15 |
| Stefano | Zoff | 16 |
| Michael | Katsidis | 17 |
| Breidis | Prescott | 18 |
| Amir | Khan | 19 |
| Graham | Earl | 20 |
| Giovanni | Niro | 21 |
| Andrei | Kudriavtsev | 22 |
| Mihaita | Mutu | 23 |
| Aram | Ramazyan | 24 |
| Emanuele | De Prophetis | 25 |
| Martin | Kristjansen | 26 |
| Pasquale | Di Silvio | 27 |
| Mircea | Lurci | 28 |
| Fernando | Angulo | 29 |
| Fernando David | Saucedo | 30 |
+-----------------------+------------------+-----+
Super Featherweight
+-----------------------+-----------------+-----+
| first_name | last_name | r |
+-----------------------+-----------------+-----+
| Joan | Guzman | 1 |
| Rocky | Juarez | 2 |
| Jorge Rodrigo | Barrios | 3 |
| Nicky | Cook | 4 |
| Alex | Arthur | 5 |
| Manny | Pacquiao | 6 |
| Juan Manuel | Marquez | 7 |
| Marco Antonio | Barrera | 8 |
| Erik | Morales | 9 |
| Cassius | Baloyi | 10 |
| Mzonke | Fana | 11 |
| Malcolm | Klassen | 12 |
| Ahmed | Elomar | 13 |
| William | Kickett | 14 |
| Gairy | St. Clair | 15 |
| Manuel | Medina | 16 |
| Roberto David | Arrieta | 17 |
| Javier Osvaldo | Alvarez | 18 |
| Edwin | Valero | 19 |
| Vicente | Mosquera | 20 |
| Terdsak | Jandaeng | 21 |
| Yoshimitsu | Yashiro | 22 |
| Roy | Mukhlis | 23 |
| Victor | Manon | 24 |
| Aaron | Melgarejo | 25 |
| Judefil | Aclo | 26 |
| Joebar | Damosmog | 27 |
| Nobuhito | Honmo | 28 |
| Takashi | Miura | 29 |
| Jose Pablo | Estrella | 30 |
+-----------------------+-----------------+-----+
Featherweight
+------------------+--------------+-----+
| first_name | last_name | r |
+------------------+--------------+-----+
| Johnny | Tapia | 1 |
| Jorge | Lacierva | 2 |
| Rocky | Juarez | 3 |
| Chris | John | 4 |
| Juan Manuel | Marquez | 5 |
| Cristobal | Cruz | 6 |
| Thomas | Mashaba | 7 |
| Oscar | Leon | 8 |
| Tomas | Villa | 9 |
| Cristian | Lopez | 10 |
| Ricardo | Castillo | 11 |
| Juan Manuel | Lopez | 12 |
| Fernando | Beltran Jr | 13 |
| Jhonny | Gonzalez | 14 |
| Marcos Leonardo | Jimenez | 15 |
| Edel | Ruiz | 16 |
| Robert | Guerrero | 17 |
| Jorge | Linares | 18 |
| Gamaliel | Diaz | 19 |
| Roger | Gonzalez | 20 |
| Adolfo | Landeros | 21 |
| Steven | Luevano | 22 |
| Nicky | Cook | 23 |
| Cyril | Thomas | 24 |
| Domenico | Urbano | 25 |
| In-Jin | Chi | 26 |
| Guty | Espadas Jr | 27 |
| Naoki | Matsuda | 28 |
| Rodolfo | Lopez | 29 |
| Takashi | Koshimoto | 30 |
+------------------+--------------+-----+
Super Bantamweight
+---------------+------------------+-----+
| first_name | last_name | r |
+---------------+------------------+-----+
| Israel | Vazquez | 1 |
| Rafael | Marquez | 2 |
| Celestino | Caballero | 3 |
| Zolani | Marali | 4 |
| Steve | Molitor | 5 |
| Takalani | Ndlovu | 6 |
| Alejandro | Valdez | 7 |
| Samuel | Lopez | 8 |
| Heriberto | Ruiz | 9 |
| Juan Manuel | Lopez | 10 |
| Daniel | Ponce de Leon | 11 |
| Sod | Looknongyangtoy | 12 |
| Oscar | Chauke | 13 |
| Poonsawat | Kratingdaenggym | 14 |
| Somsak | Sithchatchawal | 15 |
| Toshiaki | Nishioka | 16 |
| Napapol | Kiatisakchokchai | 17 |
| Wethya | Sakmuangklang | 18 |
| Kazuma | Miura | 19 |
| Akifumi | Shimoda | 20 |
| Daisuke | Yamanaka | 21 |
| Shoji | Kimura | 22 |
| Rey | Bautista | 23 |
| Antonio | Meza | 24 |
| Sergio Manuel | Medina | 25 |
| Luis | Perez Vicente | 26 |
| Andres | Cabrera | 27 |
| Reynaldo | Lopez | 28 |
| Antonio | Escalante | 29 |
| Mike | Oliver | 30 |
+---------------+------------------+-----+
Bantamweight
+-----------------+-----------------+-----+
| first_name | last_name | r |
+-----------------+-----------------+-----+
| Hozumi | Hasegawa | 1 |
| Vusi | Malinga | 2 |
| Veeraphol | Sahaprom | 3 |
| Joseph | Agbeko | 4 |
| Luis Alberto | Perez | 5 |
| Genaro | Garcia | 6 |
| Rafael | Marquez | 7 |
| Gerry | Penalosa | 8 |
| Jhonny | Gonzalez | 9 |
| Irene | Pacheco | 10 |
| Alejandro | Valdez | 11 |
| Eric | Morel | 12 |
| Heriberto | Ruiz | 13 |
| Silence | Mabuza | 14 |
| Anselmo | Moreno | 15 |
| Ricardo | Vargas | 16 |
| Michael | Domingo | 17 |
| Ratanachai | Sor Vorapin | 18 |
| Wladimir | Sidorenko | 19 |
| Simone | Maludrottu | 20 |
| Ian | Napa | 21 |
| Carmelo | Ballone | 22 |
| Frederic | Patrac | 23 |
| David | Guerault | 24 |
| Cecilio | Santos | 25 |
| Franklin | Teran | 26 |
| Sebastien | Gauthier | 27 |
| Feliciano Dario | Azuaga Ledesma | 28 |
| Seung-Gil | Lee | 29 |
| Ji | Tao | 30 |
+-----------------+-----------------+-----+
Super Flyweight
+---------------+--------------+-----+
| first_name | last_name | r |
+---------------+--------------+-----+
| Vic | Darchinyan | 1 |
| Cristian | Mijares | 2 |
| Alexander | Munoz | 3 |
| Katsushige | Kawashima | 4 |
| Fernando | Montiel | 5 |
| Nobuo | Nashiro | 6 |
| Martin | Castillo | 7 |
| Jason | Booth | 8 |
| Jorge | Arce | 9 |
| Zolile | Mbityi | 10 |
| Masibulele | Makepula | 11 |
| Evans | Mbamba | 12 |
| Lesley | Sekotswe | 13 |
| Simon | Ramoni | 14 |
| Kohei | Kono | 15 |
| Teppei | Kikui | 16 |
| Daigo | Nakahiro | 17 |
| Masayuki | Arinaga | 18 |
| William | Gonzalez | 19 |
| Marlon | Marquez | 20 |
| Cecilio | Santos | 21 |
| Pramuansak | Posuwan | 22 |
| Marat | Mazimbaev | 23 |
| Francis | Miyeyusho | 24 |
| Anthony | Mathias | 25 |
| Simphiwe | Nongqayi | 26 |
| Z | Gorres | 27 |
| Shinnosuke | Yasuda | 28 |
| Jose | Cabrera | 29 |
| Adalberto | Davila | 30 |
+---------------+--------------+-----+
Flyweight
+------------------+-----------------+-----+
| first_name | last_name | r |
+------------------+-----------------+-----+
| Daisuke | Naito | 1 |
| Pongsaklek | Wonjongkam | 2 |
| Takefumi | Sakata | 3 |
| Lorenzo | Parra | 4 |
| Nonito | Donaire | 5 |
| Vic | Darchinyan | 6 |
| Omar Andres | Narvaez | 7 |
| Brahim | Asloum | 8 |
| Bernard | Inom | 9 |
| Andrea | Sarritzu | 10 |
| Lahcene | Zemmouri | 11 |
| Jose | Lopez Bueno | 12 |
| Chris | Edwards | 13 |
| Dale | Robinson | 14 |
| Carlos | Tamara | 15 |
| Alejandro | Hernandez | 16 |
| Santiago Ivan | Acosta | 17 |
| Raul Eliseo | Medina | 18 |
| Luis Alberto | Lazarte | 19 |
| Juan Carlos | Reveco | 20 |
| Javier Nicolas | Chacon | 21 |
| Ricardo Ariel | Toledo | 22 |
| Denkaosan | Kaovichit | 23 |
| Tomonobu | Shimizu | 24 |
| Kenji | Yoshida | 25 |
| Noriyuki | Komatsu | 26 |
| Zolani | Tete | 27 |
| Vicky | Tahumil | 28 |
| Panomroonglek | Kratingdaenggym | 29 |
| Maxsaisai | Pinsinchai | 30 |
+------------------+-----------------+-----+
Light Flyweight
+----------------+---------------+-----+
| first_name | last_name | r |
+----------------+---------------+-----+
| Wandee | Singwancha | 1 |
| Munetsugu | Kayo | 2 |
| Edgar | Sosa | 3 |
| Juanito | Rubillar | 4 |
| Omar | Nino Romero | 5 |
| Brian | Viloria | 6 |
| Ulises | Solis | 7 |
| Wyndel | Janiola | 8 |
| Ivan | Calderon | 9 |
| Hugo Fidel | Cazares | 10 |
| Will | Grigsby | 11 |
| Cesar | Canchila | 12 |
| Giovanni | Segura | 13 |
| Daniel | Reyes | 14 |
| Nelson | Dieppa | 15 |
| Bert | Batawang | 16 |
| Nobuaki | Masuda | 17 |
| Muvhuso | Nedzanani | 18 |
| Phumzile | Matyhila | 19 |
| Sizwe | Sinyabi | 20 |
| Charitt | Mukondeleli | 21 |
| Thabo | Sishwane | 22 |
| Vuyani | Kheswa | 23 |
| Mfundo | Gwayana | 24 |
| Simphiwe | Mabona | 25 |
| Samora | Msophi | 26 |
| Thozamile | Myali | 27 |
| Nerys | Espinoza | 28 |
| Brahim | Asloum | 29 |
| Juan Carlos | Reveco | 30 |
+----------------+---------------+-----+
Minimumweight
+-------------+--------------------+----+
| first_name | last_name | r |
+-------------+--------------------+----+
| Roman | Gonzalez | 1 |
| Yutaka | Niida | 2 |
| Oleydong | Sithsamerchai | 3 |
| Eagle Den | Junlaphan | 4 |
| Katsunari | Takayama | 5 |
| Ivan | Calderon | 6 |
| Raul | Garcia | 7 |
| Florante | Condes | 8 |
| Muhammad | Rachman | 9 |
| Nkosinathi | Joyi | 10 |
| Denver | Cuello | 11 |
| Wanheng | Menayothin | 12 |
| Arman | dela Cruz | 13 |
| Yasutaka | Kuroki | 14 |
| Juan | Palacios | 15 |
| Teruo | Misawa | 16 |
| Satoshi | Kogumazaka | 17 |
| Hiroshi | Matsumoto | 18 |
| Makoto | Suzuki | 19 |
| Masatate | Tsuji | 20 |
| Akira | Yaegashi | 21 |
| Junichiro | Kaneda | 22 |
| Yasuhiro | Hisada | 23 |
| Masayoshi | Segawa | 24 |
| Toshiki | Ogawa | 25 |
| Kenichi | Horikawa | 26 |
| Khuselekile | Gada | 27 |
| Omar | Soto | 28 |
| Tshepo | Lefele | 29 |
| Gideon | Buthelezi | 30 |
+-------------+--------------------+----+
Re: Boxrec Ratings - Read first before commenting on the ratings
Posted: 22 Dec 2008, 22:22
by Blue
computerrank wrote:Just to give all an idea, what such a ranking would look like:
Only rules:
- bouts only count in the regarded division
- a newcomer is append at the end of the list
- the winner gets the rank of the loser, if this is an improvement for him
- the loser then is ranked just behind the winner
- draws change nothing
- after 18 month of inactivity a boxer is dropped from the list
I disagree with “bouts only count in the regarded division”.
It’s the overall record of a boxer that that counts.
Is “newcomer is append at the end of the list” the same as seniority or
precedence of position (who gained first recognition) in the merit system?
When was inactivity changed from 1 year to 18 months?
AFAIK in the Light Heavyweights,
Reggie Johnson was indicted last march for a felony theft charge in Houston Texas and
I think he’s in jail. http://www.free-press-release.com/news/ ... 01937.html
I would replace him with Adrian Diaconu who was left off the list.
Tomasz Adamek has move up and claimed the IBF cruiserweight title
Danny Green and Stipe Drews have declared their retirement.
Light Heavyweight
+-------------+--------------+-----+
| first_name | last_name | r |
+-------------+--------------+-----+
| Joe | Calzaghe | 1 |
| Bernard | Hopkins | 2 |
| Chad | Dawson | 3 |
| Antonio | Tarver | 4 |
| Clinton | Woods | 5 |
| Glen | Johnson | 6 |
| Roy | Jones Jr | 7 |
| Zsolt | Erdei | 8 |
| Reggie | Johnson | 9 |
RETIRED add Adrian Diaconu
| Tavoris | Cloud | 10 |
| Julio Cesar | Gonzalez | 11 |
| Beibut | Shumenov | 12 |
| Montell | Griffin | 13 |
| Tomasz | Adamek | 14 |
OUT- he is @ Cruiserweight
| Hugo Hernan | Garay | 15 |
@14
| Yuri | Barashian | 16 |
@15
| Thomas | Ulrich | 17 |
@16
| Danny | Green | 18 |
RETIRED add Shaun George @18
| Stipe | Drews | 19 |
RETIRED add Richard Hall @19
| Silvio | Branco | 20 |
@17
| Dean | Francis | 21 |
OUT- add Byron Mitchell @ 20
This would be the first page (top level) of the light heavyweights.
Re: Boxrec Ratings - Read first before commenting on the ratings
Posted: 22 Dec 2008, 22:26
by JCS
Its a traditional "ladder-based" ranking system, Blue.
Re: Boxrec Ratings - Read first before commenting on the ratings
Posted: 22 Dec 2008, 22:30
by JCS
As you can see, some kind of inactivity penalty is needed.
Hehe, Donald at #9.
Re: Boxrec Ratings - Read first before commenting on the ratings
Posted: 23 Dec 2008, 05:49
by Blue
JCS wrote:Its a traditional "ladder-based" ranking system, Blue.
I don’t need U to tell me what’s obvious, JCS. 
Tell me why computerrank is using an 18 month cutoff for his rating on this thread when
he’s still using 1 year for the BoxRec Handicap ratings.
Point out to me what defining fight is used to put Dean Francis, Antonio Brancalion,
Nathan Cleverly, Najib Mohammedi, Tim Bell and Aleksy Kuziemski on the BoxRec 1st page.
I repeat my question; What new problems does it cause?
Re: Boxrec Ratings - Read first before commenting on the ratings
Posted: 23 Dec 2008, 05:54
by Blue
JCS wrote:As you can see, some kind of inactivity penalty is needed.
Hehe, Donald at #9.
“A newcomer is append at the end of the list”
Since Ruiz defeated Holyfield first, Donald would have to be rated behind him.
If U activate Donald, then U have to activate Tua who knocked him out.
That puts Donald out of the top ten which is what traditional rankings are about.
The computer only calculates what U tell it to. 
Re: Boxrec Ratings - Read first before commenting on the ratings
Posted: 23 Dec 2008, 09:19
by JCS
Blue wrote:What new problems does it cause?
I don't know why he backed it up to 18 months.
A pennywaste can easily slide into the Top 5 or 3, or whatever, based on one win, and remain at the top, even after losing several times.
A live example of this is Holyfield over Ruiz. That is plain dumb.
Re: Boxrec Ratings - Read first before commenting on the ratings
Posted: 23 Dec 2008, 14:45
by JCS
I wonder if Martin accidentally tested something on live and not test? Hehe.
Re: Boxrec Ratings - Read first before commenting on the ratings
Posted: 23 Dec 2008, 16:11
by JCS
Looks like we got an update or editors have resolved some promoter-related data issues.
Re: Boxrec Ratings - Read first before commenting on the ratings
Posted: 23 Dec 2008, 17:37
by computerrank
JCS wrote:Looks like we got an update or editors have resolved some promoter-related data issues.
Good guess ...
Promoter ID aliases are mapped to one ID now for rating purpose ... most of them.
Re: Boxrec Ratings - Read first before commenting on the ratings
Posted: 23 Dec 2008, 17:43
by JCS
Marlin.
Could you run a study on which major promoters have the biggest home promoter influence?
Re: Boxrec Ratings - Read first before commenting on the ratings
Posted: 23 Dec 2008, 18:12
by computerrank
Blue wrote:JCS wrote:As you can see, some kind of inactivity penalty is needed.
Hehe, Donald at #9.
“A newcomer is append at the end of the list”
Since Ruiz defeated Holyfield first, Donald would have to be rated behind him.
If U activate Donald, then U have to activate Tua who knocked him out.
That puts Donald out of the top ten which is what traditional rankings are about.
The computer only calculates what U tell it to.
No:
2001 Ruiz defeated Holyfield, then ranked #7
2002 Holyfield defeated Rahman, then ranked #2
2004 Donald defeated Holyfield, then ranked #4
so Donald is ranked ahead of Ruiz
Re: Boxrec Ratings - Read first before commenting on the ratings
Posted: 23 Dec 2008, 18:17
by computerrank
JCS wrote:Marlin.
Could you run a study on which major promoters have the biggest home promoter influence?
... the statistical base is too small ...