Joe Calzaghe- All time great?

[Ambling Alp II]

Calzaghe didn't duck Jones or Hopkins. He would have had to have to drop down to fight Hopkins at this best or moved up to fight Jones at his best.

Legends do this kind of thing when their own weight class is not that strong, but it's asking a lot. Had Calzaghe done and this and won, it would have helped his case quite a bit.

[Cojimar 1946]

Why is it asking a lot? 168 is only 7 pounds below 175 and there are numerous examples of fighters moving up far higher in weight like Manny Pacquiao. Jones himself had moved up from 160 so it's doubtful Calzaghe was even the naturally smaller man.

[oogiebe]

Why is it asking a lot? 168 is only 7 pounds below 175 and there are numerous examples of fighters moving up far higher in weight like Manny Pacquiao. Jones himself had moved up from 160 so it's doubtful Calzaghe was even the naturally smaller man.

I'm confused. Wasn't Calzaghe's last fight at 175 vs RJJ who was at 175 for several fights? What are we talking about here?

[Cojimar 1946]

Why he didn't fight Roy Jones jr. when Roy was still in his prime.

[oogiebe]

Why he didn't fight Roy Jones jr. when Roy was still in his prime.

I see. I find it difficult to believe that putting on 7/8 pounds would have been very difficult.

[Ambling Alp II]

Not a huge deal but he would have been a tad slower, and not quite at his very best.

[oogiebe]

Not a huge deal but he would have been a tad slower, and not quite at his very best.

You don't know that. You're speculating.

[Onetimeonly]

Why he didn't fight Roy Jones jr. when Roy was still in his prime.

Because Roy Jones wasn't the kind of draw to substantiate the purse for overseas guys to come here and he refused to go there. So Roy ended up fighting none of them with the exception of woods.

[Ambling Alp II]

Not a huge deal but he would have been a tad slower, and not quite at his very best.

You don't know that. You're speculating.

You could say we are speculating about many things. He almost for sure would have been slower had he weighed more. I think he knows his own body and where he felt comfortable at. Not saying that he shouldn't have pushed for a fight with Jones. He could have dared to take the challenge. Some guys would do that and some would not. The legends usually do it.

[oogiebe]

Not a huge deal but he would have been a tad slower, and not quite at his very best.

You don't know that. You're speculating.

You could say we are speculating about many things. He almost for sure would have been slower had he weighed more. I think he knows his own body and where he felt comfortable at. Not saying that he shouldn't have pushed for a fight with Jones. He could have dared to take the challenge. Some guys would do that and some would not. The legends usually do it.

I'm sure he rehydrated to that weight at fight time more times than not anyway.

[gregor]

Calzaghe didn't duck Jones or Hopkins. He would have had to have to drop down to fight Hopkins at this best or moved up to fight Jones at his best.

Legends do this kind of thing when their own weight class is not that strong, but it's asking a lot.

How is that a lot? Hearns, Pacman, de la Hoya, Floyd... all of them moved gained more than those 7 pounds (counting to 175).

Staying in the division which is relatively weak instead to go up (or, less likely, down) to meet real challenges is classical definition of ducking for me.

[Cojimar 1946]

Fighters in Calzaghe's era generally dry out to make weight and then rehydrate after weigh ins coming in significantly heavier than what they weighed in at.

How is fighting at 175 adding weight when Calzaghe is likely entering the ring at 180+ already?

[oogiebe]

All this Calzaghe thing made me re-watch Calzaghe/Lacy. What a one-sided beatdown. Credit to Lacy for hanging in there taking such a shellacking. Brilliant performance by Calzaghe. God he was great.

[Ambling Alp II]

Calzaghe didn't duck Jones or Hopkins. He would have had to have to drop down to fight Hopkins at this best or moved up to fight Jones at his best.

Legends do this kind of thing when their own weight class is not that strong, but it's asking a lot.

How is that a lot? Hearns, Pacman, de la Hoya, Floyd... all of them moved gained more than those 7 pounds (counting to 175).

Staying in the division which is relatively weak instead to go up (or, less likely, down) to meet real challenges is classical definition of ducking for me.

168 was the best weight for him. All I am saying is that he probably would have not been quite as good moving up, at least right away. Yes, countless other guys have moved up in weight. However people are forgetting a couple of things.
1. Many moved up simply because they had outgrown their current division. Calzaghe had not done that. He was able to make 168 for a long time afterwards.
2. Most that did move up, didn't a great fighter right away. They usually got used to the weight before fighting someone with the ability of Roy Jones.

The best way would have been for him to fight some beatable guys at 175 and get used to the weight. Then take on Jones. There would have been no guarantee that he would have gotton a big showdown fight at 175 at that time with Jones anyway. And there would not have many other big fights at 175.
I don't know how well people remember this era, but there was very little talk about a Calzaghe-Jones fight at the time. It's not like everyone was screaming for it.

If we are going criticize Calzaghe for not moving up, then you have to do the same for Hopkins. The middleweight division was pretty weak when he was ruling it. He could have moved up to fight Calzaghe as easily as Calzaghe could have moved up to fight Jones.

[paddy chavez]

I don't understand criticising a fighter for staying at their natural weight in fact it was considered as something that added to a fighters greatness and moving up was a sign of a fighter not being as dedicated .of course there are exceptions like Hearns but that was because of his height also joe was probably one of the last unscientificly trained fighters I doubt he had nutritionist like today to bulk him up

[Ambling Alp II]

To me it's not fair to criticize. However, if there the competition in your own weight class is not a real challenge, and there is one moving up, a true legend does it. The very small % of fighters who really are the legends do it. If you are comparing Calzaghe to the vast majority of fighters, it's not worth mentioning it. However, if you are comparing him to the real legends, then yes it should be mentioned.

[oogiebe]

To me it's not fair to criticize. However, if there the competition in your own weight class is not a real challenge, and there is one moving up, a true legend does it. The very small % of fighters who really are the legends do it. If you are comparing Calzaghe to the vast majority of fighters, it's not worth mentioning it. However, if you are comparing him to the real legends, then yes it should be mentioned.

Hey Alp! To be fair, I'm not criticizing Calzaghe for not moving up in weight, I'm merely challenging your thoughts on it being more difficult than it would've been. Keep up the good posts!

[Cojimar 1946]

I'm still curious as to why Calzaghe would need to get used to the weight difference when he is already entering the ring well above the light heavyweight limit, he just wouldn't be draining quite as much to make weight.

[Ambling Alp II]

He was used to getting down to 168 for the weigh in. Yes he weighed more when the fight actually started, however it would have lighter than if only had to get down to 175.
His training routine leading up to the fight would have also changed if he only had to get down to 175.

As mentioned before, he still could have moved up. Jones (if he would have fought Calzaghe) would have been a far greater challenge than anyone he was fighting at 168.
However, there was no guarantee that Jones would have fought him at 175. Calzaghe could have established himself as the number one contender, but Jones could have moved up himself. Then he is stuck at 175 where there really wasn't anyone else that interesting to fight.

And again, if we are going to criticize Calzaghe, then we should criticize Hopkins as well. He could have moved up to 168 to fight Calzaghe.

[Perseus]

I haven't read through this entire thread and I'm not going to.
What I find interesting is the fact that the thread has actually gone on this far.

What if the thread title were:
Roberto Duran- All time great?
Ray Leonard- All time great?
Ray Robinson- All time great?
Ali-All time great?

How far would the debate go for them?
Probably not this far.
Even the absolute haters begrudgingly admit those guys(among others) are all time greats with very little resistance. Where exactly they should rank among the greats is a lively debate but their place among the ATG's is not.

This area of the forum generally isn't a bunch of casuals, it's people who know the history of the sport and the debate whether Joe should or should not be considered an ATG is going on and on.
That alone says NO is a reasonable answer.

Deserving first ballot hall of famer?
Absolutely yes for me.
All time great?
That's a higher standard than first ballot hall of famer and to be part of that club the candidate needs to have a list of accomplishments that are not easily dismissed by a reasonable observer and is reasonably comparable to boxers that are generally recognized as ATG's

[Ambling Alp II]

Great post! That is pretty much where I am with Calzaghe as well.