The case for FLOYD as the best ever!

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loaded_gloves
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Re: The case for FLOYD as the best ever!

Post by loaded_gloves »

Andypittcov wrote:He can't fight everybody, if he'd boxed all the guys he's supposedly avoided instead of all the the top guys he's faced then things would be no different IMO, just different names on the record and different names for the naysayers to say he should have boxed.
Erm, well too bad he didn't prove it beyond doubt in the ring, rather than flat out avoiding his most dangerous opponents or fighting them 10 years too late or after they were coming off a demoralising loss or three.

He lost to Castillo and got a gift versus a 35 year old semi-retired ODLH and still people want to believe he's some unbeatable Superman.

Then again, 'Oscar would beat Marvin Hagler.'

Unreal.
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Re: The case for FLOYD as the best ever!

Post by loaded_gloves »

keithmoonhangover wrote:
loaded_gloves wrote:Canelo's padded record and victories over Hatton and Rhodes doth not make him the killer you want/need him to be, Keith.
I don't want/need him to be anything. I'm not a Mayweather fan particularly, but he's just beaten the best fighter in the division.

Let me ask you a question. What would Floyd need to do for you to consider him the best ever?

If the clueless and padded Canelo is best in a division then it is a dead division. I like the way Floyd made him lose more weight too. Classic Floyd.

In answer to your question, Floyd would have to invent time travel and go back in time and fight the considerable list of actually dangerous men he steered in his prime. These men are listed in posts a couple of pages back.
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Re: The case for FLOYD as the best ever!

Post by keithmoonhangover »

loaded_gloves wrote:If the clueless and padded Canelo is best in a division then it is a dead division. I like the way Floyd made him lose more weight too. Classic Floyd.

In answer to your question, Floyd would have to invent time travel and go back in time and fight the considerable list of actually dangerous men he steered in his prime. These men are listed in posts a couple of pages back.
Are you saying there's nothing he could do from this point onwards for you to class him as the best boxer ever?
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Re: The case for FLOYD as the best ever!

Post by Andypittcov »

loaded_gloves wrote:
Andypittcov wrote:He can't fight everybody, if he'd boxed all the guys he's supposedly avoided instead of all the the top guys he's faced then things would be no different IMO, just different names on the record and different names for the naysayers to say he should have boxed.
Erm, well too bad he didn't prove it beyond doubt in the ring, rather than flat out avoiding his most dangerous opponents or fighting them 10 years too late or after they were coming off a demoralising loss or three.

He lost to Castillo and got a gift versus a 35 year old semi-retired ODLH and still people want to believe he's some unbeatable Superman.

Then again, 'Oscar would beat Marvin Hagler.'

Unreal.
You can attach negative opinions to any fighter that's ever lived if you look for them, it's not too difficult. He has proved himself beyond doubt in the ring.
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Re: The case for FLOYD as the best ever!

Post by keithmoonhangover »

Andypittcov wrote:
loaded_gloves wrote:
Andypittcov wrote:He can't fight everybody, if he'd boxed all the guys he's supposedly avoided instead of all the the top guys he's faced then things would be no different IMO, just different names on the record and different names for the naysayers to say he should have boxed.
Erm, well too bad he didn't prove it beyond doubt in the ring, rather than flat out avoiding his most dangerous opponents or fighting them 10 years too late or after they were coming off a demoralising loss or three.

He lost to Castillo and got a gift versus a 35 year old semi-retired ODLH and still people want to believe he's some unbeatable Superman.

Then again, 'Oscar would beat Marvin Hagler.'

Unreal.
You can attach negative opinions to any fighter that's ever lived if you look for them, it's not too difficult. He has proved himself beyond doubt in the ring.
Spot on Andy. :TU:

The thing is, Floyd could beat..... Khan, Pacman, Bradley, GGG, Martinez, Froch, Ward, Stevenson, Huck and both Klitshckos and loaded_gloves would still say he should have fought someone else.
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Re: The case for FLOYD as the best ever!

Post by Tom Ford »

Floyd wanted to fight Oscar and Shane years before they accepted the fight.
When he wanted Mosley he turned down Floyd as too much risk little reward.

Floyd is an ATG.
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Re: The case for FLOYD as the best ever!

Post by loaded_gloves »

keithmoonhangover wrote:
loaded_gloves wrote:If the clueless and padded Canelo is best in a division then it is a dead division. I like the way Floyd made him lose more weight too. Classic Floyd.

In answer to your question, Floyd would have to invent time travel and go back in time and fight the considerable list of actually dangerous men he steered in his prime. These men are listed in posts a couple of pages back.
Are you saying there's nothing he could do from this point onwards for you to class him as the best boxer ever?
Absolutely! I'm sure you find that unreasonable but who is there out there to beat? The real killers are all long dead or OAPs. There's nothing Floyd can ever do to equal the likes of Sugar Ray Robinson.

Floyd had his chance to beat some seriously dangerous men but preferred to skip them all and talk about how great he is. It's depressing that such a strategy has paid off for him among some boxing fans.
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Re: The case for FLOYD as the best ever!

Post by loaded_gloves »

keithmoonhangover wrote: The thing is, Floyd could beat..... Khan, Pacman, Bradley, GGG, Martinez, Froch, Ward, Stevenson, Huck and both Klitshckos and loaded_gloves would still say he should have fought someone else.
He couldn't and wouldn't do that so it is a nothing argument.
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Re: The case for FLOYD as the best ever!

Post by Ezzard »

Whoever people grow up watching they usually think is the best ever. In 15 years time some fighter backed by an American network who makes all his opponents fight with their shoelaces tied together will be hailed as the greatest ever.

Mayweather is a brilliant fighter who would have been great in any era.

I’ll also say that I don’t know who has the best defence ever…but Floyd if up there with them.

But seriously, he’s not top 10 at welterweight or lightweight.
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Re: The case for FLOYD as the best ever!

Post by fasteddie »

Trojans44 wrote:Great thread. For me Mayweather is obviously in the conversation for being the best ever and it astonishes me that is questioned. Loaded Gloves always has plenty to say on this topic but I have to object to the idea people who agree with me are fringe lunatics with no ability to judge boxers - some may recall LG tipping Guerrero to defeat Mayweather! Here's my take on some of the key themes:

The Record

He doesn't have the names Leonard has no doubt about it. He cant say he defeated three of the best ever. Nevertheless Mayweather's record is one of the best in boxing history and to suggest otherwise is churlish. Since 1997 he has consistently and consecutively fought world class opponent after world class opponent. That's 16 years fighting the best and winning. There are no poo, spurious mandatories or tune-ups and not even Robinson could say that. Yes there are some names missing, but they are small in number and almost always closely related to his hatred for Bob Arum e.g. he fought Cotto instantly when he left Arum.

More important is the manner of the victories. Aside from Castillo 1 and De La Hoya (both not as close as is often portrayed and both special fighters) he has systematically destroyed every single one of these world class fighters barely dropping a round in the process. I have watched many great fights and fighters but I have never seen a fighter consistently and completely remove all sense of purpose from world class opponents to the point where they look utterly bewildered, confused and wander around the ring with an air of total hopelessness. It may well be the case that the big 3 or 4 from the 1980s would also go undefeated with the same opponents but there is no chance any of them would make Marquez or Canelo or Corrales look like they had never been in a boxing ring in their entire life. I thought Canelo was going to burst into tears! He doesn't just win, he outclasses the best every single time.

Another important factor is the longevity. Yes on any given night Hagler, Hearns, Leonard and Duran could beat the same guys. Could they do it consecutively, never missing a step, for 16 years? Could they have delivered one sided dominations every time out? We know they couldn't because they didn't. Were any of them still arguably improving at 36? As a matter of record most of these guys struggled with dedication to the life at one time or another. Mayweather hasn't and that is a factor in considering greatness - "oh but Duran was out of shape in that fight". Mayweather is never out of shape.

Mayweather in the '80s

For me he beats all the main guys. We always focus on how Mayweather would deal with the legends. Someone tell me how on earth they deal with him? How can anyone say a particular type of guy or style beats Mayweather when we've seen him thrash every every style? Its just not credible to say e.g. Hearns would smash him. No-one else has managed it! A frequently cited example is that Mosley chinned him. Sorry but does that not prove how great he is? The best you can come up with is that one fighter, Sugar Shane Mosley no less, landed a solid dig! Fairly sure every other guy in the history of the sport has also been punched very hard square in the face.

Leonard outboxed Hearns, Hagler and Duran - therefore they could be outboxed. Much lesser fighters outboxed all 3 too. Mayweather's chin is solid, he's one of the greatest strategists of all time, he significantly reduces the punch output of his opponents, avoids 80% plus and lands 50% irrespective of opponent or style. If Leonard could outbox those guys then so could Mayweather.

That leaves Leonard, the greatest of the 4. Leonard, in comparison with Mayweather, is mentally weak. He had troubles with dedication, he liked to party, he could be provoked into fighting the other guy's fight. Critically he also sometimes struggled with fighters he couldn't catch, Dick Ecklund anyone? On the flip side Leonard is clearly easier to catch than Mayweather. Is it really so difficult to imagine Mayweather frustrating the life out him with his elusiveness and popping him with single right hands? I can imagine it and that's what I think would've happened.

The Athletes are Better Now Argument

This is so obviously true its staggering people deny it. Only in boxing do fans still seriously believe that competitors from decades ago could compete with today's guys. All the more ridiculous since boxing requires intense conditioning. No baseball fan thinks Babe Ruth would compete today, no tennis fan thinks Boris Becker never mind Fred Perry could compete today, no football fan thinks Stanley Matthews would have Ronaldo on the bench. Most obviously in athletics where records from decades ago are often unlikely to get you in a final. Yet boxing fans want to tell us that Robinson or Lammotta or Greb would dominate in any era. Sorry but that is clearly refuted by a mass of evidence to the contrary. Today's guys as a totality are extremely likely to be better athletes and therefore better fighters than their predecessors.

Last thing is why do all the Mayweather naysayers even follow boxing? What joy can you possibly take from this sport if you're not loving watching one of the greatest talents we've ever seen do his stuff?
brilliant,just brilliant. i got to hold my hands up here and say i was one who thought srl would of beat mayweather but now after this i gotta say i think mayweather would of beaten srl before they entered the ring,he would of had him so mad before the fight srl wouldnt of had any game plan but to try and take mayweathers head off but getting pop shotted with right hand after right hand.
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Re: The case for FLOYD as the best ever!

Post by Chris W 1982 »

Ive seen some ridiculous shite on this thread
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Re: The case for FLOYD as the best ever!

Post by Final round »

He's a defensive maestro, unbelievable reflex reaction. Fantastic technique, footwork, hand speed but his safety first, lack of killer instinct when he's clearly dominating a fighter bores me. It's not completely Mayweathers fault, every opponent seems un-equipped to deal with him and it becomes so one-sided I wish he'd put his foot on the gas and get the out of there.
While the money's rolling in and he's mesmerising his disciples why would he change his game.
Regarding an opponent for him.
Andre Ward come on down..
keithmoonhangover
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Re: The case for FLOYD as the best ever!

Post by keithmoonhangover »

loaded_gloves wrote:
keithmoonhangover wrote: The thing is, Floyd could beat..... Khan, Pacman, Bradley, GGG, Martinez, Froch, Ward, Stevenson, Huck and both Klitshckos and loaded_gloves would still say he should have fought someone else.
He couldn't and wouldn't do that so it is a nothing argument.
But if he did?
Ezzard
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Re: The case for FLOYD as the best ever!

Post by Ezzard »

I'm not really sure Floyd's act would have made him so rich in past decades. To earn that money he would have needed to take more risks in the ring...which would hinder him.

As for he beats Leonard before they get in the ring... I'm guessing that was a wisecrack....right out of the top drawer...

Can we leave it that Floyd is a great fighter? Certainly one of the greatest defensive fighters ever... His defence is up there with Pep, Gans, Johnson, Whittaker, Benitez, Leonard (Benny).

But I think a peak Don Curry could have beaten him... :box:
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Re: The case for FLOYD as the best ever!

Post by JimStone »

Trojans44 wrote:The Athletes are Better Now Argument

This is so obviously true its staggering people deny it. Only in boxing do fans still seriously believe that competitors from decades ago could compete with today's guys. All the more ridiculous since boxing requires intense conditioning. No baseball fan thinks Babe Ruth would compete today, no tennis fan thinks Boris Becker never mind Fred Perry could compete today, no football fan thinks Stanley Matthews would have Ronaldo on the bench. Most obviously in athletics where records from decades ago are often unlikely to get you in a final. Yet boxing fans want to tell us that Robinson or Lammotta or Greb would dominate in any era. Sorry but that is clearly refuted by a mass of evidence to the contrary. Today's guys as a totality are extremely likely to be better athletes and therefore better fighters than their predecessors.
I enjoyed your post. I'd just like to pick up on the quoted section and, specifically, the excerpt I have highlighted.

Firstly, I agree that strength & conditioning plays an important part in a boxer's training regimen. I also agree that our understanding of how to realise the improvements strength & conditioning training can achieve has come on in leaps and bounds in recent decades.

I disagree though that if today's guys are better athletes, and they probably are, that it automatically follows that they will be better fighters than their predecessors. I would argue that Mayweather is so much better than the contemporaries he has boxed, in part, because of the growing focus on strength and conditioning training (S&C).

Why?

The Mayweathers have not forgotten that the development of boxing skills and tactics is by far the most important aspect of training and everything else is done only to enhance the efficient delivery of those skills.

In my view, a lot of boxers and trainers have shifted too far the other way and grossly over value S&C. There is only a finite amount of training time and if the balance is wrong, you end up with fit guys with poor skills. If the skill base is low, it is low. Being fitter, stronger and more powerful will enable a fighter to deliver his limited skills more efficiently but they'll still be limited skills.

If Floyd has got the balance right, and I think he has, it would figure that with his amazing skill-set supplemented by our improved application of S&C he would be better than fighters from decades earlier. Maybe, we don't know. What we do know is that 20th century fighters dedicated a far higher percentage of their training time on sport specific training that 21st century fighters do.
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Re: The case for FLOYD as the best ever!

Post by Ezzard »

By the way. In 2 fights Ray Leonard never outboxed Tommy Hearns. I never saw anyone outbox Tommy.
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Re: The case for FLOYD as the best ever!

Post by Ezzard »

Athletes are better... I don't agree with...

More 'science' yes... But so what. As I always say...Einstein didn't know how to use an iPhone...doesn't make you cleverer than him.
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Re: The case for FLOYD as the best ever!

Post by Deserter »

Aden wrote:
Trojans44 wrote:The Athletes are Better Now Argument

This is so obviously true its staggering people deny it. Only in boxing do fans still seriously believe that competitors from decades ago could compete with today's guys. All the more ridiculous since boxing requires intense conditioning. No baseball fan thinks Babe Ruth would compete today, no tennis fan thinks Boris Becker never mind Fred Perry could compete today, no football fan thinks Stanley Matthews would have Ronaldo on the bench. Most obviously in athletics where records from decades ago are often unlikely to get you in a final. Yet boxing fans want to tell us that Robinson or Lammotta or Greb would dominate in any era. Sorry but that is clearly refuted by a mass of evidence to the contrary. Today's guys as a totality are extremely likely to be better athletes and therefore better fighters than their predecessors.
I enjoyed your post. I'd just like to pick up on the quoted section and, specifically, the excerpt I have highlighted.

Firstly, I agree that strength & conditioning plays an important part in a boxer's training regimen. I also agree that our understanding of how to realise the improvements strength & conditioning training can achieve has come on in leaps and bounds in recent decades.

I disagree though that if today's guys are better athletes, and they probably are, that it automatically follows that they will be better fighters than their predecessors. I would argue that Mayweather is so much better than the contemporaries he has boxed, in part, because of the growing focus on strength and conditioning training (S&C).

Why?

The Mayweathers have not forgotten that the development of boxing skills and tactics is by far the most important aspect of training and everything else is done only to enhance the efficient delivery of those skills.

In my view, a lot of boxers and trainers have shifted too far the other way and grossly over value S&C. There is only a finite amount of training time and if the balance is wrong, you end up with fit guys with poor skills. If the skill base is low, it is low. Being fitter, stronger and more powerful will enable a fighter to deliver his limited skills more efficiently but they'll still be limited skills.

If Floyd has got the balance right, and I think he has, it would figure that with his amazing skill-set supplemented by our improved application of S&C he would be better than fighters from decades earlier. Maybe, we don't know. What we do know is that 20th century fighters dedicated a far higher percentage of their training time on sport specific training that 21st century fighters do.
My own response to the original post is coming when I've got time, but thank you for covering off a lot I was going to say about this specific element as you're bang on the money. Great post.
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Re: The case for FLOYD as the best ever!

Post by Lenny »

Ezzard wrote:By the way. In 2 fights Ray Leonard never outboxed Tommy Hearns. I never saw anyone outbox Tommy.
This jumped out at me as well. The fights sum up each fighter nicely for me, what an excellent boxer Hearns was and how Leonard could change into a destroying type and be incredibly effective.
Mayweather has never fought anyone like Hearns, we've no idea how he would have dealt with someone like that - although not his fault as there isn't anyone like Tommy around, who was the closest Corrales?? Who is nothing like Hearns.
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Re: The case for FLOYD as the best ever!

Post by Final round »

Deserter wrote:
Aden wrote:
Trojans44 wrote:The Athletes are Better Now Argument

This is so obviously true its staggering people deny it. Only in boxing do fans still seriously believe that competitors from decades ago could compete with today's guys. All the more ridiculous since boxing requires intense conditioning. No baseball fan thinks Babe Ruth would compete today, no tennis fan thinks Boris Becker never mind Fred Perry could compete today, no football fan thinks Stanley Matthews would have Ronaldo on the bench. Most obviously in athletics where records from decades ago are often unlikely to get you in a final. Yet boxing fans want to tell us that Robinson or Lammotta or Greb would dominate in any era. Sorry but that is clearly refuted by a mass of evidence to the contrary. Today's guys as a totality are extremely likely to be better athletes and therefore better fighters than their predecessors.
I enjoyed your post. I'd just like to pick up on the quoted section and, specifically, the excerpt I have highlighted.

Firstly, I agree that strength & conditioning plays an important part in a boxer's training regimen. I also agree that our understanding of how to realise the improvements strength & conditioning training can achieve has come on in leaps and bounds in recent decades.

I disagree though that if today's guys are better athletes, and they probably are, that it automatically follows that they will be better fighters than their predecessors. I would argue that Mayweather is so much better than the contemporaries he has boxed, in part, because of the growing focus on strength and conditioning training (S&C).

Why?

The Mayweathers have not forgotten that the development of boxing skills and tactics is by far the most important aspect of training and everything else is done only to enhance the efficient delivery of those skills.

In my view, a lot of boxers and trainers have shifted too far the other way and grossly over value S&C. There is only a finite amount of training time and if the balance is wrong, you end up with fit guys with poor skills. If the skill base is low, it is low. Being fitter, stronger and more powerful will enable a fighter to deliver his limited skills more efficiently but they'll still be limited skills.

If Floyd has got the balance right, and I think he has, it would figure that with his amazing skill-set supplemented by our improved application of S&C he would be better than fighters from decades earlier. Maybe, we don't know. What we do know is that 20th century fighters dedicated a far higher percentage of their training time on sport specific training that 21st century fighters do.
My own response to the original post is coming when I've got time, but thank you for covering off a lot I was going to say about this specific element as you're bang on the money. Great post.
That was a good post.
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Re: The case for FLOYD as the best ever!

Post by Bricks »

Deserter wrote:Just a couple of things I'll throw into the debate:

1) Is there anyone out there who believes that the likes of SRR, SRL, Hearns, Duran etc would have been unable to stay unbeaten if they were facing the same opponents Floyd has fought? If so, who would they have lost to.

2) Relating to the above, the one thing we all know is that boxing is about levels - we've seen guys who looked a million dollars at a certain level (e.g. British and European) only to come apart or struggle as soon as they move up to the next level. Floyd looks amazing against the calibre of opponents he's been facing, but I don't understand why people are assuming that based on that he'll be able to do exactly the same against fighters of the calibre i've listed above. Particularly as he struggled a bit against a past-his-best De La Hoya, who was in no way, shape or form, up there with the aforementioned guys. The idea of him being able to do cute shoulder rolls and just pot-shot on the jab against SRL, for example, is madness. Canelo wouldn't have made it past 6 with so many of those legends.

Floyd's the greatest of our era, but I just can't subscribe to the GOAT theory as he's never faced the level of opponent to really allow him to justify that claim.
As an aged boxing historian, I've heard the same things said about rjj and tyson being unbeatable. That turf mike Katz during 1996 picked rjj to have knocked out both hearns and srl!!!!!! Lmao.

Floyd is good but anyone who thinks canelo is even a anything more than a 6-7 round stoppage for the Duran of 154 let alone hearns and srl is a ccunt
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Re: The case for FLOYD as the best ever!

Post by Bricks »

orbtastic wrote:He didn't have a great record at 160 though, which is where this fight would be. He got that gift decision over Sturm in Vegas where he looked pudgy, then got banged out by Hopkins.

Great fighter, decent career and came up through the weights but didn't have the frame for middleweight, really.

He also faded late in fights and that would be crucial here, given Hagler was fond of 15 round fights.

I can see a case for what you're saying, taking SRL's blueprint for "beating" Hagler which is stealing rounds with eye catching flurries in the last 30 seconds and frustrating him by not engaging and using speed but I just see him fading badly here against someone who was extremely accurate and relentless and had an iron chin.

He also didn't have great footwork or movement, if you look at the fight against Pac and ignore the fact he was clearly drained, even in the early rounds his southpaw stance and foot placement made him look like a statue.
dont forget the hagler of 87 was a rusty slow ageing fighter.do u against any other pre 86 version of hagler doesn't make it past 10 and would be brutally tortured
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Re: The case for FLOYD as the best ever!

Post by Ezzard »

Dead Mouse wrote:
Ezzard wrote:Athletes are better... I don't agree with...

More 'science' yes... But so what. As I always say...Einstein didn't know how to use an iPhone...doesn't make you cleverer than him.
In terms of being more athletic, breaking records etc. The Einstein analogy doesn’t really work. If he did have an iPhone he’d probably figure it out and be able to do a lot with it, but would prolonged use of it, plus calculators, computer software etc., erode his overall intellect? That’s the question.

It’s the same principle as the one you can apply to that church in Barcelona, Santa Maria del Pi. The choir arch is very low, built in stone segments, and probably wouldn’t and couldn’t be recreated by a modern architect and builder, as they’d lack the patience and expertise. They would create a metal mesh then cover it with concrete, creating an inferior recreation of a piece of crafted work.

This is the world we live in, across the board. I watched The Master last night, the best modern filmmakers create sketches of greatness, but not greatness itself.
If Primo Carnera had an iPhone he'd have won Gold in the 100m... That's all I'm saying...

Yes, I get your point though, he wouldn't have bothered with the 100m x 4 relay due to the sponsorship deals he would have attracted... and so probably retired mid-Olympics to a vast yacht off Sardinia to play Candy Crush.
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Re: The case for FLOYD as the best ever!

Post by JC »

ArtOfWar wrote:That's the same reason its pointless arguing who is better than who historically. I long ago gave up arguing this crap.

All I expect from boxing these days is to see as many good fights as possible.
Same :TU:
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Re: The case for FLOYD as the best ever!

Post by jamesmcdonnell »

keithmoonhangover wrote:
loaded_gloves wrote:If the clueless and padded Canelo is best in a division then it is a dead division. I like the way Floyd made him lose more weight too. Classic Floyd.

In answer to your question, Floyd would have to invent time travel and go back in time and fight the considerable list of actually dangerous men he steered in his prime. These men are listed in posts a couple of pages back.
Are you saying there's nothing he could do from this point onwards for you to class him as the best boxer ever?
Absolutely not. He is 36 and near retirement, he would have to beat a few fellow hall of famer ATG's in their prime, as Leonard, Duran, and Hearns did - or dominate a division as Hagler did for the best part of a decade. There is no way he is going to achieve that now. He's top20 all time, I think we can give him that based on his skill levels, but the resume isn;'t there. If only he had fought and beaten prime versions of Mosley and DLH, or faced Pacquaio when he was on fire, he would be rated higher, but, well,....coulda woulda shoulda.

Short of beating Martinez, GGG and Ward - I cant see it.
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