BoxRec

In the movie Popeye, there was a fella who was always stating....."You owe me an apology".

Sounds like you are acting on behalf of all people that you feel are owed an Apology by Ali.

You are quite magnanimous to carry their request forward.

Do you feel he owes you an apology as well?

ok....if you say so.

however you must admit an apparition of YOU has now appeared in that very mirror.

Perhaps an episode of "supernatural" is in order here.

Il Duce wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:In the movie Popeye, there was a fella who was always stating....."You owe me an apology".

Sounds like you are acting on behalf of all people that you feel are owed an Apology by Ali.

You are quite magnanimous to carry their request forward.

Do you feel he owes you an apology as well?

Response

Yes, I can hear the loud guffaws from the rest of the 'followers' at the Ali Sympathy Party.

It was he, who cast judgement on others, and took them to the gallows of cruel and verbal abuse.

Do you still feel you deserve punishment and belittlement for things you did or said 40+ years ago, or do you feel you've grown enough as a person overtime that time has washed them away?

Il Duce wrote:Mr G,

I have been a good person my whole life, and have never done anything 'intentionally'
to hurt someone, because I know the difference between right and wrong, good and evil.

Now, when you intentionally go out of your way to hurt someone to the core, and are
out to damage their heart, and make the them the target of your cruel jokes.

Then, you are a 'Class A Jerk', a selfish manipulative bastard, like some people.

I fear that a 'certain someone' will not be met with open arms when he leaves this
Earth, but will first be met by 'The Grim Reaper'.

Quite possibly, he has met 'The Grim Reaper' while he's on Earth now, who is torturing
him with pain that he inflicted on others, when he knew better.

Schadenfreude

Il Duce wrote:

gilgamesh wrote:

Il Duce wrote:Mr G,

I have been a good person my whole life, and have never done anything 'intentionally'
to hurt someone, because I know the difference between right and wrong, good and evil.

Now, when you intentionally go out of your way to hurt someone to the core, and are
out to damage their heart, and make the them the target of your cruel jokes.

Then, you are a 'Class A Jerk', a selfish manipulative bastard, like some people.

I fear that a 'certain someone' will not be met with open arms when he leaves this
Earth, but will first be met by 'The Grim Reaper'.

Quite possibly, he has met 'The Grim Reaper' while he's on Earth now, who is torturing
him with pain that he inflicted on others, when he knew better.

Schadenfreude

More of a 'self-prescribed' Retributive Justice.

"Thou shalt not felt healed, until I have felt the true consequences of my sins."

Whatever you wish to call it. I have a simple request Il Duce, could you please, just dial it back with all the Ali threads all the time? I mean there's an entire wonderful history of Boxing to talk about without being obsessed with that ONE fighter and trying to sh*t all over everything he ever did or accomplished. You clearly have a pretty good knowledge of Boxing, and I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on other fighters on a regular basis.

Your thoughts on Ali are very, very well established, and noted.

ok...I love it.....full blown episode of "Supernatural" playing out right here on the ol BOTP.

Il Duce, go back and read your own words for meaning. Eventually it will dawn on you that you have become that which you curse. It may take a long long time, but my guess is the fog will clear at some point.

Your judgement on this celebrity is harsh. And your ease on yourself...nearly sociopathic.

Anyway, I leave this subject in peace. I wish you peace as well.

My parting thought will be direct and simple....Follow the rules, enjoy the forum.

Il Duce wrote:Mr. B Buzz,

It appeared that the statement was directed towards a 'specific individual'.

As for other derogatory statements made by Cassius Clay were things like,
'The Great Black White Hope', and a 'Light-Skinned Banana', and
a 'Yam-Eatin Rabbit'.

Maybe the cruelest statement was, when Cassius said that Floyd was thrown out
of Scarsdale, New York because he still ate 'Pork Chops'.

Il Duce, What you write is factual, but there are some posters who don't want to know the insults their hero spouted those days, hurting other people who NEVER hurt him...Those days I remember vividly, and Clay was cruel to his opponents taunting them in victory in front of thousands of people,
and acting like an insensitive bully...He started a cult ,and he could do no wrong... What he called one decent man Joe Frazier was shameful and despicable, but today his followers wish to forget about
all this, because of misguided hero worship...Kudos for you for your correct stance on this thread....

beaujack wrote:

Il Duce wrote:Mr. B Buzz,

It appeared that the statement was directed towards a 'specific individual'.

As for other derogatory statements made by Cassius Clay were things like,
'The Great Black White Hope', and a 'Light-Skinned Banana', and
a 'Yam-Eatin Rabbit'.

Maybe the cruelest statement was, when Cassius said that Floyd was thrown out
of Scarsdale, New York because he still ate 'Pork Chops'.

Il Duce, What you write is factual, but there are some posters who don't want to know the insults their hero spouted those days, hurting other people who NEVER hurt him...Those days I remember vividly, and Clay was cruel to his opponents taunting them in victory in front of thousands of people,
and acting like an insensitive bully...He started a cult ,and he could do no wrong... What he called one decent man Joe Frazier was shameful and despicable, but today his followers wish to forget about
all this, because of misguided hero worship...Kudos for you for your correct stance on this thread....

I also remember those days well and you have it exactly right.

In some quarters history is never a settled question. There are are still some folks who argue that Adolf Hitler was merely a frustrated artist, Il Duce was merely a disgruntled Marxist turned fascist, and poor Tojo just wanted the Americans to end their embargo of his nation.

However, history is written by the victors , no matter how much we might not want it to be so.

Il Duce wrote:Floyd Patterson

Physically, I must admit, I was embarrassed by Ingemar Johansson, and completely
destroyed by Sonny Liston.

My will was still strong, but I was not so sure of my physical ability. Then came Cassius,
a wonderfully gifted boxer who could take the 'Sport' of boxing to another level.

He knew I couldn't beat him, and I knew it too. But, I still had to get into the ring with him.

At first, there was good sportsmanship and general respect. Then a little 'pre-fight chatter',
but nothing out-landish or mean-spirited. But then, something happened with Cassius, a side
that I had never seen before, a cruel side that was filled with 'hate', just absolute 'hate'.

Not spite, but 'hate'.

He should have let the GOAT take him under his wings so he could learn there is "nothing to fear but fear itself." Competitive sports devours those with fragile psyches and as the most brutal of sports the result in boxing are often the most manifest.

An older Muhammad Ali was asked what he would have said to the brutish Sonny Liston if he had the chance to talk to him as just two old men. His answer was "You scared me."

Il Duce wrote:Floyd Patterson,

After the 'Sonny Liston I' bout, Floyd was a Millionaire and really didn't need boxing
anymore.

He should have retired, but Floyd felt that his effort against Sonny at Chicago Stadium in
1962 was a 'personal disgrace'.

After the 'second bout' with Sonny Liston, Las Vegas didn't want Floyd around anymore either.

The buzz out there was ........'Good Riddance, thankfully we won't have to see Patterson anymore.'

Two-years later he was back, but with a 'bad back'.

Floyd Patterson was a good man who deserved better than to have his fairweather friends, almost all of them white, turn their back on him after his loss to Ali:


"Patterson's a real man. I hit him but he wouldn't go down I have two swollen hands to show for it. You wouldn't
fall... You took everything I threw. You had guts and heart. You were better than the those egging you on. "
The eggers were Ali's real enemies. I didn't see myself hitting Floyd Patterson. I was fighting the white celebrities behind him, the Jimmy Canons, and the white celebrities; the Frank Sinatras, the Joey Bishops, the Arch Wards, the Dick Youngs."

And how did his erstwhile friends react to his loss to Muhammad Ali ? They threw him under the bus, ergo:


" Muhammad Ali believed that Patterson's back was bad but he didn't want to publicize it" But Patterson's white pals weren't so generous. One said he fought " like an old woman." Others said he was "hypnotized" and "pulverized". "Frank Sinatra, who had befriended Patterson when he had become champion proved to be the completely egotistical fairweather friend many would know him to be in many contests Patterson went to see him the day after the fight. Frank Sinatra barely said a word and turned his back on him. Patterson almost wept." ( If Sinatra hated Ali so much, why didn't he get in the ring with him or get one of his goombahs to do so?)

"The rude incident implied that Ali was right-that the Frank Sinatras of the white world really did not embrace Patterson. They simply wanted somebody that could beat the hated Ali, and once a black man failed to perform for them as desired, he was just as utterly worthless."

http://books.google.com/books?id=WiTLhu ... Z3tnlPr-m9

And that's the truth. Ali wasn't there to be Floyd's friend and he gave Floyd's efforts in the ring a nobility. It was Floyds' white pals who threw him under the bus when he failed to be the bullet that would take out the hated Muhammad.

To discuss Ali without discussing the politics of the time is fanciful.

ThatOne wrote:

Il Duce wrote:Floyd Patterson

Physically, I must admit, I was embarrassed by Ingemar Johansson, and completely
destroyed by Sonny Liston.

My will was still strong, but I was not so sure of my physical ability. Then came Cassius,
a wonderfully gifted boxer who could take the 'Sport' of boxing to another level.

He knew I couldn't beat him, and I knew it too. But, I still had to get into the ring with him.

At first, there was good sportsmanship and general respect. Then a little 'pre-fight chatter',
but nothing out-landish or mean-spirited. But then, something happened with Cassius, a side
that I had never seen before, a cruel side that was filled with 'hate', just absolute 'hate'.

Not spite, but 'hate'.

He should have let the GOAT take him under his wings so he could learn there is "nothing to fear but fear itself." Competitive sports devours those with fragile psyches and as the most brutal of sports the result in boxing are often the most manifest.

An older Muhammad Ali was asked what he would have said to the brutish Sonny Liston if he had the chance to talk to him as just two old men. His answer was "You scared me."

"GOAT"*

*Name commonly used by misguided hero worshipers in referring to Muhammad Ali, well known silver medalist in the FOTC.

Il Duce wrote:That One,

You make a good point, but you also 'prove beyond a shadow of a doubt' that Cassius Clay/Muhammad Ali
saw everthing as a 'Black-and-White' issue.

If Cassius had 'white friends', they were 'Friends'.

If Floyd Patterson had 'white friends', they were 'White Friends'.

Cassius Clay casting 'judgements' on others, kind of like having a 'Rattlesnake as a Pet'.

At the time Ali saw the world through a racial prism. But he wasn't alone then and wouldn't be alone now if he still saw the world that way which he doesn't.

At least Ali acknowledged that Floyd was a game competitor. Floyd's former friends treated him like a chump.

yancey wrote:

ThatOne wrote:

Il Duce wrote:Floyd Patterson

Physically, I must admit, I was embarrassed by Ingemar Johansson, and completely
destroyed by Sonny Liston.

My will was still strong, but I was not so sure of my physical ability. Then came Cassius,
a wonderfully gifted boxer who could take the 'Sport' of boxing to another level.

He knew I couldn't beat him, and I knew it too. But, I still had to get into the ring with him.

At first, there was good sportsmanship and general respect. Then a little 'pre-fight chatter',
but nothing out-landish or mean-spirited. But then, something happened with Cassius, a side
that I had never seen before, a cruel side that was filled with 'hate', just absolute 'hate'.

Not spite, but 'hate'.

He should have let the GOAT take him under his wings so he could learn there is "nothing to fear but fear itself." Competitive sports devours those with fragile psyches and as the most brutal of sports the result in boxing are often the most manifest.

An older Muhammad Ali was asked what he would have said to the brutish Sonny Liston if he had the chance to talk to him as just two old men. His answer was "You scared me."

"GOAT"*

*Name commonly used by misguided hero worshipers in referring to Muhammad Ali, well known silver medalist in the FOTC.

I tried to be civil to you. Since I am the bigger man and admire your affection to someone you find admirable I will ignore your puerile taunt; this time.

Giancarlo wrote:

ThatOne wrote:

Il Duce wrote:No,

Mainly because Cassius was walking around Las Vegas, at the 'Stardust Hotel'
in November 1965 handing out photo's of Floyd Patterson dressed up as 'Uncle Tom'.

Cassius had his Training Camp set up at the 'Stardust Hotel', and he really seemed to enjoy
ridiculing Floyd, well after the Convention Center tickets were already 'sold-out'.

I would love to learn more about this incident. Can you please direct me to where I can find more information on this.

Thank you in advance.

Me too.

It sounds like it was made up by a lunatic.

Floyd in a photo dressed as 'Uncle Tom'?

How does that work? Did Floyd pose for this supposed photo? Did the 'Clay industry' kidnap him and force him to dress up as 'Uncle Tom'. Maybe they photoshopped it on Bundini's laptop...

Actually what does 'Uncle Tom' usually wear?

Lol. What the frick does a uncle Tom wear

Duce has more than demonstrated he has a fertile imagination. I'm sure he will come up with something.

Il Duce wrote:In 'respect' to Floyd Patterson, I will not post the 'Photo Flyer' that Cassius Clay
was passing around at the Stardust Hotel in Las Vegas in November 1965.

A very tasteless gag by a 'somewhat demented' individual.

Floyd Patterson's face pasted over a dressed up old Black man, with the words.
'Uncle Tom' Floyd Patterson.

I would like to see it. It can't be worse than Francis Sinatra refusing to speak with him after a loss where he fought courageously.

Does all it take for a black man to become a Uncle Tom is to don a suit?

I would like to see how it's done.

Il Duce wrote:I guess you will have to take a look at Harriet Beecher Stowe's 1852 Novel,
and use your imagination.

You know the routine,,,,,,,,, ripped shirt, torn pants, no shoes.

Cassius was a 'funny guy' when had his 75 or so 'Clown Clan' following him around
in Las Vegas.

He looked tough, when compared to Floyd, who liked to stay in a quiet setting with just a handful of friends.

You get the picture,,,,,,,,

I need more. You can p m it to me and I will describe it to the rest of the board. Clay/Ali had a point. They did throw poor Floyd under the bus.

I would like to discuss Francis Sinatra's shameful behavior.

I would like to discuss Francis Sinatra's shameful behavior.

ThatOne wrote:In some quarters history is never a settled question. There are are still some folks who argue that Adolf Hitler was merely a frustrated artist, Il Duce was merely a disgruntled Marxist turned fascist, and poor Tojo just wanted the Americans to end their embargo of his nation.

However, history is written by the victors , no matter how much we might not want it to be so.

Sir, you are spouting platitudes to hide the darn truth that your defendant Cassius Clay was a despicably cruel fighter those days who inflicted terrible verbal abuse on his fellow fighters who were trying to make a living for their family....I remember those days better than most because I followed
Clay since I saw him fight in the Amateur Finals at MSG against Tony Madigan of Australia in 1959...
I have been following pro fighting since the 1940s sir, and have seen almost all the great fighters ringside, but there has NEVER been any fighter ever who taunted and abused his fellow fighters
constantly like Cassius Clay did...So please don't interject a Hitler, Mussolini, Tojo in this thread to
obfuscate the real truth of your hero...Why he even abandoned his mentor Malcolm X to save his ass...

beaujack wrote:

ThatOne wrote:In some quarters history is never a settled question. There are are still some folks who argue that Adolf Hitler was merely a frustrated artist, Il Duce was merely a disgruntled Marxist turned fascist, and poor Tojo just wanted the Americans to end their embargo of his nation.

However, history is written by the victors , no matter how much we might not want it to be so.

Sir, you are spouting platitudes to hide the darn truth that your defendant Cassius Clay was a despicably cruel fighter those days who inflicted terrible verbal abuse on his fellow fighters who were trying to make a living for their family....I remember those days better than most because I followed
Clay since I saw him fight in the Amateur Finals at MSG against Tony Madigan of Australia in 1959...
I have been following pro fighting since the 1940s sir, and have seen almost all the great fighters ringside, but there has NEVER been any fighter ever who taunted and abused his fellow fighters
constantly like Cassius Clay did...So please don't interject a Hitler, Mussolini, Tojo in this thread to
obfuscate the real truth of your hero...Why he even abandoned his mentor Malcolm X to save his ass...

That was a dark mark on him and I don't think he was the first boxer to speak ill of his opponent. Tony "Two Ton'" Galento called Joe Louis the n word, Larry Holmes called Gerry Cooney "Looney Cooney" and said "his elevator doesn't stop on every floor" and Mike Tyson said much worse things about his opponents with homophobic slurs.

Back to the topic, Floyd and Muhammad became friends, and Ali spoke glowingly of him as a fighter describing him as the best "boxer" he ever faced. However Floyd's friends threw him under the bus when he failed to beat Ali.

ThatOne wrote:

beaujack wrote:

ThatOne wrote:In some quarters history is never a settled question. There are are still some folks who argue that Adolf Hitler was merely a frustrated artist, Il Duce was merely a disgruntled Marxist turned fascist, and poor Tojo just wanted the Americans to end their embargo of his nation.

However, history is written by the victors , no matter how much we might not want it to be so.

Sir, you are spouting platitudes to hide the darn truth that your defendant Cassius Clay was a despicably cruel fighter those days who inflicted terrible verbal abuse on his fellow fighters who were trying to make a living for their family....I remember those days better than most because I followed
Clay since I saw him fight in the Amateur Finals at MSG against Tony Madigan of Australia in 1959...
I have been following pro fighting since the 1940s sir, and have seen almost all the great fighters ringside, but there has NEVER been any fighter ever who taunted and abused his fellow fighters
constantly like Cassius Clay did...So please don't interject a Hitler, Mussolini, Tojo in this thread to
obfuscate the real truth of your hero...Why he even abandoned his mentor Malcolm X to save his ass...

That was a dark mark on him and I don't think he was the first boxer to speak ill of his opponent. Tony "Two Ton'" Galento called Joe Louis the n word, Larry Holmes called Gerry Cooney "Looney Cooney" and said "his elevator doesn't stop on every floor" and Mike Tyson said much worse things about his opponents with homophobic slurs.

Back to the topic, Floyd and Muhammad became friends, and Ali spoke glowingly of him as a fighter describing him as the best "boxer" he ever faced. However Floyd's friends threw him under the bus when he failed to beat Ali.

We are not talking about what a Tony Galento said, nor what Larry Holmes said, we are talking about
what Cassius Clay repeatedly said about his opponents with malice...Those days he was a vile person and you cannot sugarcoat what he did...I am convinced that if Clay insisted that two and two added up to five, his adherents would believe it...Good try ,but no cigar...

You can't ignore the politics of the time. Many people, you know the people who threw Floyd under the bus when he failed to beat Ali, rooted for Ali's opponents because they couldn't stand the site of a outspoken black man. I rather discuss how Francis Sinatra instead of consoling a defeated Floyd Patterson "turned his back on him " but that doesn't fit into some people's agendas.

yancey wrote:

beaujack wrote:

Il Duce wrote:Mr. B Buzz,

It appeared that the statement was directed towards a 'specific individual'.

As for other derogatory statements made by Cassius Clay were things like,
'The Great Black White Hope', and a 'Light-Skinned Banana', and
a 'Yam-Eatin Rabbit'.

Maybe the cruelest statement was, when Cassius said that Floyd was thrown out
of Scarsdale, New York because he still ate 'Pork Chops'.

Il Duce, What you write is factual, but there are some posters who don't want to know the insults their hero spouted those days, hurting other people who NEVER hurt him...Those days I remember vividly, and Clay was cruel to his opponents taunting them in victory in front of thousands of people,
and acting like an insensitive bully...He started a cult ,and he could do no wrong... What he called one decent man Joe Frazier was shameful and despicable, but today his followers wish to forget about
all this, because of misguided hero worship...Kudos for you for your correct stance on this thread....

I also remember those days well and you have it exactly right.

It would be fun for a Mod to check the IP addresses of these 'three' users and see if they were one and the same.