BoxRec

orbtastic wrote:lol. Greb is widely regarded as one of the, if not the greatest middleweight in history, not to mention one of the greatest fighters ever, in the history of the sport.

Their careers are not in any way comparable.

Greb would be a mortal lock for one the best fighters around in the sport today, were he boxing now. Wilde wouldn't.

You only have to watch footage of Wilde to just see how laughable those sort of claims are. He also really beat nobody or any note (the two wins over Lynch were exhibitions), whereas Greb has a cornucopia of names on his ledger to choose from, and all whilst blind in one eye.

If you take what Nat Fleischer said as gospel, then you must rate Louis, Dempsey, Marciano and Jeffries over Ali and Ketchel over Robinson and McGovern and Attel over Pep. The man had ludicrous bias and it just gets blindly regurgitated.

orbtastic wrote:lol. Greb is widely regarded as one of the, if not the greatest middleweight in history, not to mention one of the greatest fighters ever, in the history of the sport.

Their careers are not in any way comparable.

Greb would be a mortal lock for one the best fighters around in the sport today, were he boxing now. Wilde wouldn't.

You only have to watch footage of Wilde to just see how laughable those sort of claims are. He also really beat nobody or any note (the two wins over Lynch were exhibitions), whereas Greb has a cornucopia of names on his ledger to choose from, and all whilst blind in one eye.

If you take what Nat Fleischer said as gospel, then you must rate Louis, Dempsey, Marciano and Jeffries over Ali and Ketchel over Robinson and McGovern and Attel over Pep. The man had ludicrous bias and it just gets blindly regurgitated.

Tuan_Jim wrote:I can't believe people are so impressed by Joe Calzaghe's poor opponents and alphabet spaghetti. The high regard Joe and Floyd are held in for what have been cynical safety-first careers only underlines my impression that boxing fans don't know how to think and need others (usually media outlets) to think for them.

I fancy Michael Watson to overpower Joe Calzaghe. And Watson is officially 0-3 in your precious 'world title' fights. And yet he beat Chris Eubank who is officially 20-3 in 'world title fights', and he would in my opinion do the same to Calzaghe, who is 20-0 in these spurious 'world title fights'.

And Watson certainly isn't anywhere near Britain's greatest ever fighter.

NazNaci1 wrote:

expe wrote:Benn was stopped 4 times in his career and quit on his stool twice and would have punched himself out at Calzaghe's pace. Jones was beating people up, but how many great fighters did he fight? Hopkins, Toney, McCallum who started at light middleweight and other decent fighters, but a lot of them weren't world class and they certainly weren't at Joe's level. Eubank spent too long prancing round the ring, he wouldn't have been stopped, he was too tough, but he would have been outworked to a comfortable decision, a little closer than when they actually met. I don't believe Naz had more ability, he was more athletic and definitely flashier, but there were glaring holes in his game that he made up for with outstanding reflexes and natural power. He certainly didn't have more belts either, he won the WBO, IBF and WBC, but he never fought for the WBA, Calzaghe did win all 4 and if it wasn't for politics would have been only the second fighter ever to hold all 4 simultaneously after Hopkins. Naz fought some of the best around his weight, but not all, same as Calzaghe, where the only glaring miss on his record is Sven Ottke and while he should have gone to Germany and knocked that fraud out, I don't blame him for not doing so with the officiating being so bad in Ottke's fights.

I just wanted to answer each of your points as honestly as I could. Nigel punching himself out fighting at Calzaghe's pace? Why is that then? The fights and intensity of fights that Nigel was involved decimate anything Joe was in, so lets just focus on that, not the old Dark destroyer who fought Watson. Nigel was as fit as they came, in his prime. You had to hurt him and even then, it didn't stop him. Joe would be getting hit with bombs at times and it would be interesting to see how much of that rapid, slappy, fast punching he would do after getting countered a few times with some dynamite rights and lefts. That would be the key in that fight, in my opinion.

Jones? Seriously? Those 3 names you mentioned just says it all. Just how many great fighters did Joe fight? Was Toney not as good as Joe? Hopkins? McCallum? Was Joe anywhere near as good as any of these is what you should be asking. If Jones list of opponents doesn't impress then, by the same yardstick Joe's list does nothing for you. Talent wise, those 3 you mentioned are no worse than Joe, right? And which of Joe's opponents even comes close to Jones? Toney? McCallum? Hell even as good as González, Woods, Reggie Johnson, Tarver, Hill, Malinga or Griffin?

Eubank? An old, slower, worn Eubanks rocked Joe to his boots, literally in the last 10-15 seconds and though Joe might win again, it is no means a certainty, not by any stretch.

As for Naz, you may believe Joe had more ability, but I don't. Not at all. I have watched them both and all of their fights (like you probably) so I just don't see where Joe's talent wins out here. Though that's just a personal opinion, like yours. Speed, power, reflexes, just all round talent. Naz was just better. As for all the belts, well ok, maybe he never held all the belts but he beat Vasquez who was stripped just before his fight with Naz as you know, so he beat every belt holder in the division and unofficially was undisputed champion. Tougher opponents, some genuine world class opponents in there. As for Joe.....

Ottke? Well, he retired undefeated, fought some top contenders and still gets dissed. Yeah, yeah I know he got some homers ie Reid. Then again Reid gave Joe a super tough fight (which I though he might have nicked). Didn't get the decision there, nor the rematch, either. Joe did not do 'rematches' unless you were Mario Veit. Joe also said he only interested in winning 'proper' titles like the WBC and not the 'cheap' low level WBO. Yeah well we saw how that turned out and please don't suggest winning the other titles in the last portion of his career are some kind of vindication. It is not.

Finally, there is this minor point about traveling, which tends to get dismissed. Naz did it. Ricky did it. Lennox did it. Lloyd did it. Chris did it. Nigel did it. Even big Frank did it. Yet Joe only did it when he thought it was nice and safe.

Sorry fella, there is a counter argument for every point you have made and obviously there are arguments against every point I have made. That should tell you something. Joe was a great fighter, we have established that. It's his level of greatness that is the question and for me, he comes behind the likes of Lennox, Ricky, and Naz, in the modern era and then you got likes of Kid Berg, Jimmy Wilde, Ken Buchanan (a few that have been mentioned) and others whose achievements simply mean more and warrant more respect than retaining '0' due to fighting lower risk fights with home town advantage and clocking up 20+ defences. 13-14 of those against complete no hopers no names, 5-6 against heavy underdogs and the odd couple, where he was expected to be tested. Not saying much, is it?

Nope, not really good enough in my eyes, but its all about opinions.

stevedoc wrote:

orbtastic wrote:lol. Greb is widely regarded as one of the, if not the greatest middleweight in history, not to mention one of the greatest fighters ever, in the history of the sport.

Their careers are not in any way comparable.

Greb would be a mortal lock for one the best fighters around in the sport today, were he boxing now. Wilde wouldn't.

You only have to watch footage of Wilde to just see how laughable those sort of claims are. He also really beat nobody or any note (the two wins over Lynch were exhibitions), whereas Greb has a cornucopia of names on his ledger to choose from, and all whilst blind in one eye.

If you take what Nat Fleischer said as gospel, then you must rate Louis, Dempsey, Marciano and Jeffries over Ali and Ketchel over Robinson and McGovern and Attel over Pep. The man had ludicrous bias and it just gets blindly regurgitated.

greb wouldn't have a chance today ,stlyes change technique . no fighter from before the 30's would cut it today you can real off the list of champions he beat but that means nothing at all because none of them fought like modern boxers .plus greb couldn't punch his way out of a paper bag with a 15% ko rating i think off the top of my head .

Taansend wrote:Mr Tornado,

He had 100's of more fights than his official record. As a teen he would take part in fights where two holes were dug & a man (or boy) stood in each one so they were the same height & neither fighter could run. You just stood there winging punches. He would fight, and kayo, grown men in this way.

stevedoc wrote: greb wouldn't have a chance today ,stlyes change technique . no fighter from before the 30's would cut it today you can real off the list of champions he beat but that means nothing at all because none of them fought like modern boxers .plus greb couldn't punch his way out of a paper bag with a 15% ko rating i think off the top of my head .

Ambling Alp II wrote:You can, but many people don't have the interest. Some people think the sport began the day they were born and have little interest in what happened a long time ago.

You can compare a fighter who fought in 1980s to one that fought in the 1990s and make a decent evaluation who was better and by how much. You can compare one who fought in the 1970s to the 1980s. Since you can do that, you can compare a fighter from the 1970s to the 1990s.

You can compare a fighter from the 1960s to the 1970s. Since you can do that, you can compare one from the 1960s to the 1990s. You can keep doing that and go back 100 years if you want to. Probably best if you use a bar graph or take notes. It can be done.

Tuan_Jim wrote:

stevedoc wrote: greb wouldn't have a chance today ,stlyes change technique . no fighter from before the 30's would cut it today you can real off the list of champions he beat but that means nothing at all because none of them fought like modern boxers .plus greb couldn't punch his way out of a paper bag with a 15% ko rating i think off the top of my head .

What an embarrassing post to make. This offensive offering, combined with your contributions to Boxers of the Past, really underline the fact that you are a special needs-level boxing fan.

I imagine you think some modern 30-0 (30) ESPN fighter would walk through Harry Greb without breaking a sweat. Please return to remedial class, you're holding back the bright kids.

Tuan_Jim wrote:I've seen many Tunney fights. He looks good there. Not only are you semi-literate, stevedoc, but your eyes don't work either. You've overcome huge obstacles simply logging onto a computer.

For the record, your argument is as facile as you. Those sports you compare boxing to crucially don't involve athletes getting punched in the head and body.

I'll take the conditioned supermen battling 10 and 15 rounders 12 times a year over your modern musclebound glasschin guys boxing once or twice a year against handpicked opposition.

PS Jack Johnson would play with a stiff predictable robot like Vitali Klitschko. It would be amusing to watch Vitali in rd 20, given his struggles over 6 and 8 rds with fat 40 year old men like Lewis and Sanders. I wouldn't which round a shredded, exhausted Vitali would quit on his stool after?

Tuan_Jim wrote:I've seen many Tunney fights. He looks good there. Not only are you semi-literate, stevedoc, but your eyes don't work either. You've overcome huge obstacles simply logging onto a computer.

For the record, your argument is as facile as you. Those sports you compare boxing to crucially don't involve athletes getting punched in the head and body.

I'll take the conditioned supermen battling 10 and 15 rounders 12 times a year over your modern musclebound glasschin guys boxing once or twice a year against handpicked opposition.

PS Jack Johnson would play with a stiff predictable robot like Vitali Klitschko. It would be amusing to watch Vitali in rd 20, given his struggles over 6 and 8 rds with fat 40 year old men like Lewis and Sanders. I wouldn't which round a shredded, exhausted Vitali would quit on his stool after?

mickey1975 wrote: But it's never going to happen so we will never know, so you might as well calm down...

Tuan_Jim wrote:IT WILL WHEN I BUILD MY TIME MACHINE.

Tuan_Jim wrote:

stevedoc wrote: greb wouldn't have a chance today ,stlyes change technique . no fighter from before the 30's would cut it today you can real off the list of champions he beat but that means nothing at all because none of them fought like modern boxers .plus greb couldn't punch his way out of a paper bag with a 15% ko rating i think off the top of my head .

What an embarrassing post to make. This offensive offering, combined with your contributions to Boxers of the Past, really underline the fact that you are a special needs-level boxing fan.

I imagine you think some modern 30-0 (30) ESPN fighter would walk through Harry Greb without breaking a sweat. Please return to remedial class, you're holding back the bright kids.

Tomasino wrote:

Tuan_Jim wrote:

stevedoc wrote: greb wouldn't have a chance today ,stlyes change technique . no fighter from before the 30's would cut it today you can real off the list of champions he beat but that means nothing at all because none of them fought like modern boxers .plus greb couldn't punch his way out of a paper bag with a 15% ko rating i think off the top of my head .

What an embarrassing post to make. This offensive offering, combined with your contributions to Boxers of the Past, really underline the fact that you are a special needs-level boxing fan.

I imagine you think some modern 30-0 (30) ESPN fighter would walk through Harry Greb without breaking a sweat. Please return to remedial class, you're holding back the bright kids.

Have you posted here before, under a different username? Your posts seem familiar...