BoxRec

Easy tiger. I already said that it wasn't a HOF resume. Just saying that the guy was "good"

LOL, yet you toss out a "world title" record like it means something.

Is it a lie?

drunkenpiper36 wrote:Is it a lie?

It's deceiving. In a world full of paper titles that means nothing. His resume isn't top 40 at Heavy.

Now that you mention it, top 40 works just fine.

drunkenpiper36 wrote:He's 15-2 in world title bouts, and has lost the fewest number of rounds of any heavyweight champion. His wins include Sam Peter, Herbie Hide, Corrie Sanders, Kirk Johnson, Ross Purity, Larry Donald, Tomasz Adamek, Chris Arreola, Juan Gomez and Odlanier Solis. Not a hall of fame resume by any means but certainly not a bad one.

Wow. Not so much a 'Who's Who' but a 'Who Isn't'. I'm surprised you didn't include Obed Sullivan and Ed Mahone in that sorry mess.

Just underlines the fact that Vitali's best opponents were Byrd and Lewis by a long long way, both of whom stopped him, both of whom injured him terribly in the process.

drunkenpiper36 wrote:Vitali Klitschko hasn't captured the imagination of very many people. But for all his shortcomings, he's managed to put together a pretty good career. He's 15-2 in world title bouts, and has lost the fewest number of rounds of any heavyweight champion. His chin is well proven and while he's not exactly Sugar Ray robinson in the speed and skills department, he's got a pretty good outside fighting game. His wins include Sam Peter, Herbie Hide, Corrie Sanders, Kirk Johnson, Ross Purity, Larry Donald, Tomasz Adamek, Chris Arreola, Juan Gomez and Odlanier Solis. Not a hall of fame resume by any means but certainly not a bad one. The Chris Byrd defeat was a heart breaker for the Klitschkos. Vitali had that fight in the bag, before he quit due to the pain of the torn rotator cuff. Kind of a shame that he didn't gut that one out, but then again I wasn't the one in the ring fighting with an injured arm so I'll hold off on judgement.. As for Corrie Sanders, well I've seen people overrate him plenty, but today he seems to be getting sold a little short.

Terrible post. Only good part is the one in bold. Vitali has no power, a lesser punch variety than his brother, and benefits a lot from sheer size and a good chin, which you can't strike against him.

Jaywheel wrote:

drunkenpiper36 wrote:Vitali Klitschko hasn't captured the imagination of very many people. But for all his shortcomings, he's managed to put together a pretty good career. He's 15-2 in world title bouts, and has lost the fewest number of rounds of any heavyweight champion. His chin is well proven and while he's not exactly Sugar Ray robinson in the speed and skills department, he's got a pretty good outside fighting game. His wins include Sam Peter, Herbie Hide, Corrie Sanders, Kirk Johnson, Ross Purity, Larry Donald, Tomasz Adamek, Chris Arreola, Juan Gomez and Odlanier Solis. Not a hall of fame resume by any means but certainly not a bad one. The Chris Byrd defeat was a heart breaker for the Klitschkos. Vitali had that fight in the bag, before he quit due to the pain of the torn rotator cuff. Kind of a shame that he didn't gut that one out, but then again I wasn't the one in the ring fighting with an injured arm so I'll hold off on judgement.. As for Corrie Sanders, well I've seen people overrate him plenty, but today he seems to be getting sold a little short.

Terrible post. Only good part is the one in bold. Vitali has no power, a lesser punch variety than his brother, and benefits a lot from sheer size and a good chin, which you can't strike against him.

Nothing I said is incorrect, and I never made any comparisons between him and his brother. I never claimed he had great power either, but regardless of weather or not he does, he still managed to stop most of his opponents, a fair number of whom were fairly durable.

Come on, no power? That's ridiculous. I'll be the first to say Vitali doesn't make my top 40 (maybe not even top 50) but I disagree with some in that I think at his peak he was a better fighter than his brother. Better footwork, stamina and most importantly can take a punch and doesn't look like the world is crumbling when he's hit back. Right now I'd only rank Wlad higher because he has the better wins (although none of anyone you'd mistake for a great fighter) and his sheer longevity at the top.

Their strongest mark going for them on a historical rankings basis isn't, as most would claim, via mythical head to head matchups (I think a number of HWs from the past could have defeated them, especially Wlad) but from their sheer discipline and consistency. Most fighters in any weight class, at some point in their careers, fore-go training, live the high life, lost focus etc. Give this to the Klitschkos . . .they are incredibly consistent about their conditioning and preparedness. In an era in which the wide majority of HWs are overweight by at least 20 lbs, that goes a long way, especially since they fight in a tall defensive style which requires the opponent to be in top condition to beat them.

He's a stinging arm puncher. Definitely has some power, just nothing elite on that level. He isn't Jimmy Young, but he isn't Holyfield either.

Vitali is no all time great by any means. But he gets sh-t on in a lot of discussions. Head to head he'd be a formidable opponent for most fighters. I can't name too many guys who would just walk into the ring with him and walk out collecting an easy night's pay.

Maybe we aren't as far apart. You seem to realize that he wasn't an all-time great. There were probably 25-30 who would have beaten him easily.

As for Leonid:
"Vitaly has very limited skills" has already shortened to "Vitaly has limited skills", I hope it will transform in "Vitaly has skills" at some point, as your statements does not support your conclusion at all and if you think u'r winning this arguement its just sad.
Same goes for Corrie Sanders "fast hands".
And following your logic we may come to: Frazier relied mostly on his left hook, "which makes him a very limited fighter. A great fighter would have little trouble beating him". Ali obviously didn't

Sorry I left out the word "Very" once. Didn't realize how crucial it was.
Sorry that you are sad.
Frazier's best punch was his left hook. However, he threw his right hand quite frequently, which made it much more difficult for his opponents. He was not a one trick pony like Sanders.

Ambling Alp II"]There were probably 25-30 who would have beaten him easily.

If you're talking about Vitali, then who are the 25-30 fighters who would have beaten him "easily?"

Same goes for Corrie Sanders "fast hands".

Here dude. Watch a minute or two of this clip and tell me if you still think that he DIDN'T have fast hands.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnWRyBOvdmI

Sure, I guess that is fast hands for a heavyweight these days. There have been heavyweights with faster hands. My point is that he often (in particular against Vitaly) didn't use his right very much. Vitaly should have had little problem avoiding left hand leads, but over and over he got hit.

As for some guys who would have beaten Vitaly easily: Ali, Louis, Foreman, Johnson, Frazier, Holmes, Marciano,Dempsey, Holyfield, Lewis, Tyson, Liston, Jeffries, Bowe, Tunney, Langford, Wills, Jeannette, McVey, Schmeling, Sharkey, Baer, Charles, Walcott, and Norton.

Ambling Alp II wrote:As for some guys who would have beaten Vitaly easily: Ali, Louis, Foreman, Johnson, Frazier, Holmes, Marciano,Dempsey, Holyfield, Lewis, Tyson, Liston, Jeffries, Bowe, Tunney, Langford, Wills, Jeannette, McVey, Schmeling, Sharkey, Baer, Charles, Walcott, and Norton.

Great list. The beating the Lennox Lewis of 1993 would give Vitali Klitschko is almost unimaginable. He could be as gungho as he liked against Vitali, no counter KO shots to worry about and so much younger & physically stronger than the gasping Dr Iron-Klit.

="Ambling Alp II"]Sure, I guess that is fast hands for a heavyweight these days. There have been heavyweights with faster hands. My point is that he often (in particular against Vitaly) didn't use his right very much. Vitaly should have had little problem avoiding left hand leads, but over and over he got hit.

Its been years since I've seen Sanders vs Klitschko, but in many of the replays I've seen more recently, he used his right hand plenty and was constantly popping that right jab. At least you sort of recanted your claim that he didn't have fast hands.

As for some guys who would have beaten Vitaly easily: Ali, Louis, Foreman, Johnson, Frazier, Holmes, Marciano,Dempsey, Holyfield, Lewis, Tyson, Liston, Jeffries, Bowe, Tunney, Langford, Wills, Jeannette, McVey, Schmeling, Sharkey, Baer, Charles, Walcott, and Norton.

With all due respect, it seems to me like you just reeled off a list of 25 names in an effort to respond to my question, and while I appreciate the effort, I don't see very many of these guys having an "easy" night with Vitali at all. I can even see some of them losing to him.

I don't think he was anywhere near the level of Ali, or Patterson or Tyson. Or even as fast as Tubbs or Dokes for that matter. I guess that is what I think of when I think of fast hands. Were his hands faster than Vitaly Kltischko or most of the heavyweight of modern times? Yes.

You may want to watch that fight again. It was a glorified Toughman contest fight. No defense whatsoever. Sanders relied almost entirely on his left hand. It still caused Vitaly problems. Vitaly should have been able to avoid these shots easily. The sad thing is that this probably Vitaly's biggest win.

I had thought about who would beat Vitaly easily and thought about several names. I listed some here. Sure this is boxing, one could have a horrible night and struggle. If they have their typical performance, they win easily. Vitaly never beat anyone close to these guys. An obese Lennox Lewis and Chris Byrd aren't anywhere near the level of these guys. And he failed could not even pass those tests.

It would be easy for them because they would be able to hit him almost at will. These guys also have good to great chins. They aren't going to be be chopped down like the stiffs that he he fought.

Ambling Alp II wrote:I don't think he was anywhere near the level of Ali, or Patterson or Tyson. Or even as fast as Tubbs or Dokes for that matter. I guess that is what I think of when I think of fast hands. Were his hands faster than Vitaly Kltischko or most of the heavyweight of modern times? Yes.

You may want to watch that fight again. It was a glorified Toughman contest fight. No defense whatsoever. Sanders relied almost entirely on his left hand. It still caused Vitaly problems. Vitaly should have been able to avoid these shots easily. The sad thing is that this probably Vitaly's biggest win.

I had thought about who would beat Vitaly easily and thought about several names. I listed some here. Sure this is boxing, one could have a horrible night and struggle. If they have their typical performance, they win easily. Vitaly never beat anyone close to these guys. An obese Lennox Lewis and Chris Byrd aren't anywhere near the level of these guys. And he failed could not even pass those tests.

It would be easy for them because they would be able to hit him almost at will. These guys also have good to great chins. They aren't going to be be chopped down like the stiffs that he he fought.

I respect your opinions and your post. But honestly it sounds like the same tired old rhetoric, ie. " well if he couldn't beat an old Lewis or Chris Byrd, then he'd get killed against these other guys." [/iyou're well above that.. Fact is, he was pounding the piss out of Chris Byrd for most of that fight with only one arm and while being in a lot of pain. That loss had nothing to do with anything Byrd did to him.. It was a torn rotator cuff. Lewis was getting his ass handed to him for the first four rounds prior to the punch that caused the cut.. But since Lennox was well past it anyway, and still won the fight we'll call it a wash. Lewis is one of the few fighters that might actually have an "easy" time with Vitali because he has the right blend of physical attributes to go along with style to do the job. Other fighters like Holmes, Ali and Louis would certainly win, but hardly with ease. If we're honest, those men struggled against far worse men than Vitali Klitschko, and I can't agree with your earlier ascertion that they'd land at will. The man had a good wingspan, outside fighting game, decent power to keep men honest, great chin and lost fewer rounds than any champion on record. Do you honestly think Ken Norton ( one of the men you listed ) or even Rocky Marciano would just walk all over the guy? Frankly I don't. The man's resume isn't pretty, but that's also largely due to perception created by the disgruntled boxing fan of the past 10 years. Fact is, Vitali Klitschko would probably pound the living piss out of most people we can think of..

The reason I bring up Lewis and Byrd were because they were his biggest tests. (Which says a lot about his competition.) And he failed. We can make excuses, but that is what happened.
He was not pounding Byrd at all. It was a horrible fight. Each guy kept tapping the other guys gloves. I remember watching with a friend and were just laughing. Then he quit. Don't really care about the excuse.

I don't call it a wash vs Lewis. He landed some good shot because Lewis was immobile, but could not get Lewis out of there. He got hit a lot even by that version of Lewis. The bottom line is that he got stopped in 6 rounds by a horrible impersonation of Lennox Lewis. In his prime Lewis would completely dominated him.

If he had a slew of of big wins to offset these debacle, that would be one thing. He doesn't.

Yes he has a good wing pan. He doesn't have the power to stop anyone with one shot and isn't going to hit them enough to stop them over the long haul. We think he has a great chin, but we really don't even know that given his competition.
I don't think Ali or Louis would have the slightest bit of trouble beating him. If he doesn't quit, somehow doesn't get cut, and somehow goes the distance he is going to lose a very lopsided decision.
Yes I do think Ken Norton and Rocky Marciano would have defeated him easily.

All of these guys I listed you can point to some big wins. You can't do that with Vitaly. Corrie Sanders would not be a big win for any of these other guys.

Ambling Alp II wrote:The reason I bring up Lewis and Byrd were because they were his biggest tests. (Which says a lot about his competition.) And he failed. We can make excuses, but that is what happened.
He was not pounding Byrd at all. It was a horrible fight. Each guy kept tapping the other guys gloves. I remember watching with a friend and were just laughing. Then he quit. Don't really care about the excuse.

I don't call it a wash vs Lewis. He landed some good shot because Lewis was immobile, but could not get Lewis out of there. He got hit a lot even by that version of Lewis. The bottom line is that he got stopped in 6 rounds by a horrible impersonation of Lennox Lewis. In his prime Lewis would completely dominated him.

If he had a slew of of big wins to offset these debacle, that would be one thing. He doesn't.

Yes he has a good wing pan. He doesn't have the power to stop anyone with one shot and isn't going to hit them enough to stop them over the long haul. We think he has a great chin, but we really don't even know that given his competition.
I don't think Ali or Louis would have the slightest bit of trouble beating him. If he doesn't quit, somehow doesn't get cut, and somehow goes the distance he is going to lose a very lopsided decision.
Yes I do think Ken Norton and Rocky Marciano would have defeated him easily.

All of these guys I listed you can point to some big wins. You can't do that with Vitaly. Corrie Sanders would not be a big win for any of these other guys.

His wins were not as bad as some often make them out to be. He beat something like five ring ranked contenders, a handful of unbeaten prospects and several guys who were big punchers. Sure its easy to write some of them off as no hopers or fat tubbs, but the reality is that we can pick apart anyone's opposition. He beat the vast majority of HIS opponents decisively and was NEVER dominated in a ring. So unless you're banking on the unlikely even of a torn rotator cuff or bad gash above the eye in EVERY one of his outings with an all time great, there are plenty of the men whom you listed who would have a tough night's work, and some who might not even finish the task....

P.S. That version of Sanders who had just sparked the second best heavyweight in the world, WOULD have been a big win for some of those guys.

drunkenpiper36 wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote:The reason I bring up Lewis and Byrd were because they were his biggest tests. (Which says a lot about his competition.) And he failed. We can make excuses, but that is what happened.
He was not pounding Byrd at all. It was a horrible fight. Each guy kept tapping the other guys gloves. I remember watching with a friend and were just laughing. Then he quit. Don't really care about the excuse.

I don't call it a wash vs Lewis. He landed some good shot because Lewis was immobile, but could not get Lewis out of there. He got hit a lot even by that version of Lewis. The bottom line is that he got stopped in 6 rounds by a horrible impersonation of Lennox Lewis. In his prime Lewis would completely dominated him.

If he had a slew of of big wins to offset these debacle, that would be one thing. He doesn't.

Yes he has a good wing pan. He doesn't have the power to stop anyone with one shot and isn't going to hit them enough to stop them over the long haul. We think he has a great chin, but we really don't even know that given his competition.
I don't think Ali or Louis would have the slightest bit of trouble beating him. If he doesn't quit, somehow doesn't get cut, and somehow goes the distance he is going to lose a very lopsided decision.
Yes I do think Ken Norton and Rocky Marciano would have defeated him easily.

All of these guys I listed you can point to some big wins. You can't do that with Vitaly. Corrie Sanders would not be a big win for any of these other guys.

His wins were not as bad as some often make them out to be. He beat something like five ring ranked contenders, a handful of unbeaten prospects and several guys who were big punchers. Sure its easy to write some of them off as no hopers or fat tubbs, but the reality is that we can pick apart anyone's opposition. He beat the vast majority of HIS opponents decisively and was NEVER dominated in a ring. So unless you're banking on the unlikely even of a torn rotator cuff or bad gash above the eye in EVERY one of his outings with an all time great, there are plenty of the men whom you listed who would have a tough night's work, and some who might not even finish the task....

P.S. That version of Sanders who had just sparked the second best heavyweight in the world, WOULD have been a big win for some of those guys.

No he wouldn't. He wouldn't even be a contender in those fighters day. You are clutching at straws here almost desperately. Those 25 guys are guys that beat Vitali 9 out of 10 times. There are others who I think would handle the iron robot.

No he wouldn't. He wouldn't even be a contender in those fighters day. You are clutching at straws here almost desperately. Those 25 guys are guys that beat Vitali 9 out of 10 times. There are others who I think would handle the iron robot.

Thanks for your input.... You're wrong.

drunkenpiper36 wrote:

No he wouldn't. He wouldn't even be a contender in those fighters day. You are clutching at straws here almost desperately. Those 25 guys are guys that beat Vitali 9 out of 10 times. There are others who I think would handle the iron robot.

Thanks for your input.... You're wrong.

I'm sorry but I couldn't thank you for your input, it's nonsense.

Okay chief.

drunkenpiper36 wrote: Fact is, he was pounding the piss out of Chris Byrd for most of that fight with only one arm and while being in a lot of pain. That loss had nothing to do with anything Byrd did to him.. It was a torn rotator cuff. Lewis was getting his ass handed to him for the first four rounds prior to the punch that caused the cut.

This is as wildly inaccurate as your cast-iron fact statements that David Haye was a 'southpaw' or that Ron Lyle was a 'moderate hitter'.

He wasn't pounding anything out of Byrd, he missed the first half, injuring himself, and backpedalled the second half before quitting on his stool in "too much pain".

Lewis was losing prior to his punches turning the tides. Right, so, standard boxing then? Vitali would have won, if only he didn't lose.