BoxRec

davie wrote:

APerno wrote:For what it is worth - I am going with 'who could have beat whom' on his best night:

1. Gene Tunney
2. Michael Spinks
3. Ezzard Charles
4. Archie Moore
5. Billy Conn
6. Sam Langford
7. Tommy Loughran
8. Maxie Rosenbloom
9. Bob Foster
10. Joey Maxim

Couple of questions


Going by your criteria, how does RJJ not make that top 10?

And how does Maxie Rosenbloom survive 15 rounds against Bob Foster?

Your last question seems to promote the idea that "head to head" = rating.

If so......Would you say Iran Barkly should be rated higher than Thomas Hearns? Or maybe there is a better example. Just wondering if that's what your getting at with your question.

By the way....I think Maxie has a chance of slappin' his way to victory ....maybe Calzaghe as well. I'm not standin' by that statement....just suggesting it's quite possible. Roy vs Joe comes to mind.....of course that may well have been all about the timing.

BoxBuzz wrote:

davie wrote:

APerno wrote:For what it is worth - I am going with 'who could have beat whom' on his best night:

1. Gene Tunney
2. Michael Spinks
3. Ezzard Charles
4. Archie Moore
5. Billy Conn
6. Sam Langford
7. Tommy Loughran
8. Maxie Rosenbloom
9. Bob Foster
10. Joey Maxim

Couple of questions


Going by your criteria, how does RJJ not make that top 10?

And how does Maxie Rosenbloom survive 15 rounds against Bob Foster?

Your last question seems to promote the idea that "head to head" = rating.

If so......Would you say Iran Barkly should be rated higher than Thomas Hearns? Or maybe there is a better example. Just wondering if that's what your getting at with your question.

By the way....I think Maxie has a chance of slappin' his way to victory ....maybe Calzaghe as well. I'm not standin' by that statement....just suggesting it's quite possible. Roy vs Joe comes to mind.....of course that may well have been all about the timing.

I wasn't promoting the idea that head to head = rating.
Aperno had stated that was criteria, who would beat who on any given day, hence my question.

Had he said Rosenbloom ranks above Foster on resume, I'd have respected that opinion, as he has a fantastic record.

But prime for prime, in the ring, I simply cannot see how Maxie wins that fight. He wpuld not stop him, he would therefore need to survive 15 rounds.
I appreciate the boxer vs puncher argument, but for me if you are going to outbox someone as ferocious as Foster, you need to at least have the pop to gain your opponents respect.

I'm no Rosenbloom expert and I suspect not many have watched much of his stuff (is there much to be seen?) But a man who had over 270 fights and never stopped 20 opponents doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who could have held Bob off.

He may have been a fantastic boxer but I strongly suspect the gulf in power heavily outweighs any gulf in boxing ability, as Bob Foster wasn't simply a banger, he knew his way round a ring as well.


As for Jones, I think I had him in my top 10 but could understand him being left out. These ATG type discussions, for me, should be ranked on acheivement. But if Aperno is ranking it on more of a p4p type basis, based more on ability at prime, then prime RJJ has been as close to an unbeatable as I feel I've ever watched.
Again just my opinion, but I struggle to see most of these top LHWs beating prime Jones.

I'd pick rosenbloom to box circles around foster. Bob is overrated to me h2h and his resume is insanely overblown.

Gene Tunney...
Michael Spinks...
Ezzard Charles...
Bob Foster...
Sergei Kovalev...
Billy Conn....
MIke Gibbons...
Andre Ward...
Floyd Patterson...
Tommy Loughran...

Archie Moore was beaten by Ezzard Charles 3 times, including getting knocked out... Moore had quite a few other losses to people you never heard of.. I always thought Patterson was a blown up Light Heavyweight.. He weighed only 168 and had 13 pro fights when he fought Joey Maxim... Everybody in the entire arena thought Patterson beat Maxim except the judges -- including all 11 sportswriters at ringside.. The AP and UPI also had Patterson winning... As a 21-year-old Patterson beat and stopped Archie Moore so easily it was ridiculous... It was for the Heavyweight Title vacated by Marciano -- who did not want to fight Patterson.

It no longer makes sense, unfortunately

Kalan wrote:Gene Tunney...
Michael Spinks...
Ezzard Charles...
Bob Foster...
Sergei Kovalev...
Billy Conn....
MIke Gibbons...
Andre Ward...
Floyd Patterson...
Tommy Loughran...

Archie Moore was beaten by Ezzard Charles 3 times, including getting knocked out... Moore had quite a few other losses to people you never heard of.. I always thought Patterson was a blown up Light Heavyweight.. He weighed only 168 and had 13 pro fights when he fought Joey Maxim... Everybody in the entire arena thought Patterson beat Maxim except the judges -- including all 11 sportswriters at ringside.. The AP and UPI also had Patterson winning... As a 21-year-old Patterson beat and stopped Archie Moore so easily it was ridiculous... It was for the Heavyweight Title vacated by Marciano -- who did not want to fight Patterson.

Mike Gibbons the welterweight?

Kalan wrote:Gene Tunney...
Michael Spinks...
Ezzard Charles...
Bob Foster...
Sergei Kovalev...
Billy Conn....
MIke Gibbons...
Andre Ward...
Floyd Patterson...
Tommy Loughran...

Archie Moore was beaten by Ezzard Charles 3 times, including getting knocked out... Moore had quite a few other losses to people you never heard of.. I always thought Patterson was a blown up Light Heavyweight.. He weighed only 168 and had 13 pro fights when he fought Joey Maxim... Everybody in the entire arena thought Patterson beat Maxim except the judges -- including all 11 sportswriters at ringside.. The AP and UPI also had Patterson winning... As a 21-year-old Patterson beat and stopped Archie Moore so easily it was ridiculous... It was for the Heavyweight Title vacated by Marciano -- who did not want to fight Patterson.

To leave Ezzard Charles out because you:
1. Have issue with what weight class he should be represented in. And....
2. Are a massive Moore fan.
Is hugely controversial

Where as, to completely omit Archie Moore because you don't think his acheivements merit inclusion, is one of the most blatant acts of trolling I've ever witnessed and not even worthy of this response let alone an actual rebuttal of the actual argument you have made.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:I'd pick rosenbloom to box circles around foster. Bob is overrated to me h2h and his resume is insanely overblown.

Personally I think Bob was a dangerous big bastard!

He was, doesn't mean fourie or ahumada were better or tougher than rosenbloom. His resume pales in comparison to the majority of guys getting votes.

davie wrote:

APerno wrote:For what it is worth - I am going with 'who could have beat whom' on his best night:

1. Gene Tunney
2. Michael Spinks
3. Ezzard Charles
4. Archie Moore
5. Billy Conn
6. Sam Langford
7. Tommy Loughran
8. Maxie Rosenbloom
9. Bob Foster
10. Joey Maxim

Couple of questions


Going by your criteria, how does RJJ not make that top 10?

And how does Maxie Rosenbloom survive 15 rounds against Bob Foster?

Maxie Rosenbloom's niece use to cut my hair, he stays on the list - Roy Jones couldn't take a LHW punch.

APerno wrote:

davie wrote:

APerno wrote:For what it is worth - I am going with 'who could have beat whom' on his best night:

1. Gene Tunney
2. Michael Spinks
3. Ezzard Charles
4. Archie Moore
5. Billy Conn
6. Sam Langford
7. Tommy Loughran
8. Maxie Rosenbloom
9. Bob Foster
10. Joey Maxim

Couple of questions


Going by your criteria, how does RJJ not make that top 10?

And how does Maxie Rosenbloom survive 15 rounds against Bob Foster?

Maxie Rosenbloom's niece use to cut my hair, he stays on the list - Roy Jones couldn't take a LHW punch.

Probably the finest argument I've ever read, doesn't answer the question, but I'll accept it none the less
Bravo!

I will update the list tomorrow.

davie wrote:

Kalan wrote:Gene Tunney...
Michael Spinks...
Ezzard Charles...
Bob Foster...
Sergei Kovalev...
Billy Conn....
MIke Gibbons...
Andre Ward...
Floyd Patterson...
Tommy Loughran...

Archie Moore was beaten by Ezzard Charles 3 times, including getting knocked out... Moore had quite a few other losses to people you never heard of.. I always thought Patterson was a blown up Light Heavyweight.. He weighed only 168 and had 13 pro fights when he fought Joey Maxim... Everybody in the entire arena thought Patterson beat Maxim except the judges -- including all 11 sportswriters at ringside.. The AP and UPI also had Patterson winning... As a 21-year-old Patterson beat and stopped Archie Moore so easily it was ridiculous... It was for the Heavyweight Title vacated by Marciano -- who did not want to fight Patterson.

To leave Ezzard Charles out because you:
1. Have issue with what weight class he should be represented in. And....
2. Are a massive Moore fan.
Is hugely controversial

Where as, to completely omit Archie Moore because you don't think his acheivements merit inclusion, is one of the most blatant acts of trolling I've ever witnessed and not even worthy of this response let alone an actual rebuttal of the actual argument you have made.

I have Charles as number 3... And I have Moore as number 11... Moore doesn't make my top 10 because all of the top guys would kick his can.

davie wrote:

APerno wrote:

davie wrote:
Couple of questions


Going by your criteria, how does RJJ not make that top 10?

And how does Maxie Rosenbloom survive 15 rounds against Bob Foster?

Maxie Rosenbloom's niece use to cut my hair, he stays on the list - Roy Jones couldn't take a LHW punch.

Probably the finest argument I've ever read, doesn't answer the question, but I'll accept it none the less
Bravo!

On the serious side, I don't know Maxie except for the 'slappy' rep - he is actually on the list because of the niece - I was surprised to see that he is on a few list (not here, on the net) - but do you feel that RJJ could beat the bottom three on my list? - I do question Jones' ability to stand up to LHW banging - I think Saad Muhammad would have been able to split fights with him; I would say RJJ wasn't a sure thing against the next ten on the LHW list, never mind the top ten.

Kalan wrote:

davie wrote:

Kalan wrote:Gene Tunney...
Michael Spinks...
Ezzard Charles...
Bob Foster...
Sergei Kovalev...
Billy Conn....
MIke Gibbons...
Andre Ward...
Floyd Patterson...
Tommy Loughran...

Archie Moore was beaten by Ezzard Charles 3 times, including getting knocked out... Moore had quite a few other losses to people you never heard of.. I always thought Patterson was a blown up Light Heavyweight.. He weighed only 168 and had 13 pro fights when he fought Joey Maxim... Everybody in the entire arena thought Patterson beat Maxim except the judges -- including all 11 sportswriters at ringside.. The AP and UPI also had Patterson winning... As a 21-year-old Patterson beat and stopped Archie Moore so easily it was ridiculous... It was for the Heavyweight Title vacated by Marciano -- who did not want to fight Patterson.

To leave Ezzard Charles out because you:
1. Have issue with what weight class he should be represented in. And....
2. Are a massive Moore fan.
Is hugely controversial

Where as, to completely omit Archie Moore because you don't think his acheivements merit inclusion, is one of the most blatant acts of trolling I've ever witnessed and not even worthy of this response let alone an actual rebuttal of the actual argument you have made.

I have Charles as number 3... And I have Moore as number 11... Moore doesn't make my top 10 because all of the top guys would kick his can.

You've got a welterweight on your list. Go home.

Tomasino wrote:

Kalan wrote:Gene Tunney...
Michael Spinks...
Ezzard Charles...
Bob Foster...
Sergei Kovalev...
Billy Conn....
MIke Gibbons...
Andre Ward...
Floyd Patterson...
Tommy Loughran...

Mike Gibbons the welterweight?

I always thought that Mike Gibbons was recognized as more of a Middleweight?
Whenever I've heard Burt Sugar talk stories about him, it's as a Middle.

Even so this is a Light Heavyweight list and I am obliged to take everyone's equally seriously.

Crease wrote:

Tomasino wrote:

Kalan wrote:Gene Tunney...
Michael Spinks...
Ezzard Charles...
Bob Foster...
Sergei Kovalev...
Billy Conn....
MIke Gibbons...
Andre Ward...
Floyd Patterson...
Tommy Loughran...

Mike Gibbons the welterweight?

I always thought that Mike Gibbons was recognized as more of a Middleweight?
Whenever I've heard Burt Sugar talk stories about him, it's as a Middle.

Even so this is a Light Heavyweight list and I am obliged to take everyone's equally seriously.

I think he means Tommy Gibbons, the light heavyweight brother.

Mike was 145lbs in his 32 fight but indeed fought many times at 150-158lbs later in his career. I'm sure Nat Fleishcher rated him 4th best welter ATG.

3 days to go...

And our list has been fully updated:

Crease wrote:Current Scoreboard: (21 members have voted)

1st - 173 pts Archie Moore
2nd - 171 pts Ezzard Charles
3rd - 144 pts Gene Tunney
4th - 126 pts Michael Spinks
5th - 82 pts Bob Foster
6th - 81 pts Sam Langford
7th - 57 pts Tommy Loughran
8th - 56 pts Harry Greb
9th - 50 pts Billy Conn
10th - 47 pts Bob Fitzsimmons

11th - 38 pts Roy Jones Jr
12th - 30 pts Maxie Rosenbloom
13th - 28 pts Harold Johnson
14th - 21 pts Tommy Gibbons
15th - 10 pts Jimmy Bivins
Tied 16th - 09 pts John Henry Lewis
Tied 16th - 09 pts Sergey Kovalev
18th - 04 pts Mike Gibbons
Tied 19th - 03 pts Georges Carpentier
Tied 19th - 03 pts Matthew Saad Muhammad
Tied 19th - 03 pts Joey Maxim
Tied 19th - 03 pts Andre Ward

Tied 23rd - 02 pts Mike McTigue
Tied 23rd - 02 pts Floyd Patterson
Tied 25th - 01 pt Jack Delaney
Tied 25th - 01 pt George Gardiner
Tied 25th - 01 pt Dwight Muhammad Qawi

Tomasino wrote:I think he means Tommy Gibbons, the light heavyweight brother.

I suspect so too. But let's wait and let him confirm that, Mr Kalan has been an unpredictable member ever since first arriving here.
In any case, It would be very easy process just to transfer the 4 pts over to Tommy on our scoreboard.
Let's wait a while, see what happens.

I consider Mike Gibbons a better boxer than his brother Tommy, although he didn't fight that many Light Heavyweights now that I checked... He beat Chuck Wiggins and Jack Dillon, who both fought and beat a number of Heavyweights and Light Heavyweights... In his book "Arms for Living" Gene Tunney wrote that he modeled his fight with Jack Dempsey on Mike Gibbons' strategic win over Jack Dillon... He considered Dempsey a bigger version of Jack Dillon and thought Gibbons was brilliant.

But maybe Antonio Tarver would be a better selection than Mike Gibbons... or possibly Archie Moore, considering how small Gibbons was... Moore started as a Welterweight also ... and Billy Conn started pro as a Lightweight...

Kalan wrote:I consider Mike Gibbons a better boxer than his brother Tommy, although he didn't fight that many Light Heavyweights now that I checked... He beat Chuck Wiggins and Jack Dillon, who both fought and beat a number of Heavyweights and Light Heavyweights... In his book "Arms for Living" Gene Tunney wrote that he modeled his fight with Jack Dempsey on Mike Gibbons' strategic win over Jack Dillon... He considered Dempsey a bigger version of Jack Dillon and thought Gibbons was brilliant.

But maybe Antonio Tarver would be a better selection than Mike Gibbons... or possibly Archie Moore, considering how small Gibbons was... Moore started as a Welterweight also ... and Billy Conn started pro as a Lightweight...

That reads very much like "I meant to write Tommy, but I am utterly unable to ever back down on this forum"

davie wrote:That reads very much like "I meant to write Tommy, but I am utterly unable to ever back down on this forum"

That's true.

davie wrote:

Kalan wrote:I consider Mike Gibbons a better boxer than his brother Tommy, although he didn't fight that many Light Heavyweights now that I checked... He beat Chuck Wiggins and Jack Dillon, who both fought and beat a number of Heavyweights and Light Heavyweights... In his book "Arms for Living" Gene Tunney wrote that he modeled his fight with Jack Dempsey on Mike Gibbons' strategic win over Jack Dillon... He considered Dempsey a bigger version of Jack Dillon and thought Gibbons was brilliant.

But maybe Antonio Tarver would be a better selection than Mike Gibbons... or possibly Archie Moore, considering how small Gibbons was... Moore started as a Welterweight also ... and Billy Conn started pro as a Lightweight...

That reads very much like "I meant to write Tommy, but I am utterly unable to ever back down on this forum"

Yeh Kalan, save Mike for his own weight class. Archie might just be more deserving

Kalan wrote:I consider Mike Gibbons a better boxer than his brother Tommy

So... We'll just let Mike keep his 4 pts then shall we?

- Selecting a top 10 out of over 130 years of championship Queensbury gloved boxing a bit like selecting the top 10 science fiction novels. I'd choose the 1960 published Venus Plus X as the most applicable for this era of 20th century men waking up one morning in their 3rd millennium perfect cookie cutter world where overpopulation, endless war, biological destruction, and bigotry are all eliminated by technology and law. That would include elimination of biological gender, which makes Ol' Sturge prescient, so we could be sure boxing eliminated contact, weight and gender classes. All the punch monkeys, judges, and refs would have to study the new art of electronic scoring at distance where tiny he/she/it shoeshine flurries off breakballet dancing moves rule the day and any contact results in auto DQ.



Unlike some of the disreputable heavies chosen last go round, the lightheavies are a more honorable, more competitive lot, they having a claim to being the strongest division in history. I included their IBRO rankings as a point of comparison. Sturge was responsible for Sturgeon's Law in the day where 90% of science fiction is crud that became 90% of everything crud, but Sturge never saw a top 10 LH list.

1.Sammy Langford(#6 IBRO P4P/#3 LH)

2.Bobby Fitz(#10 IBRO P4P/#8 LH)

3.Ezzy Charles(#12 IBRO P4P/#2 LH)

4.Archie Moore(#17 IBRO P4P/#1 LH)

5. Harry Greb(#2 IBRO P4P/#13 LH)

The first five were not constrained to lightheavy limitations to transcend the division. Had the $ value been there, they could've remained there, but they went with bigger fights in bigger divisions whenever possible that enhance the potential of this division, not that I think any could beat the top behemoth heavies of today. I would rank Greb higher but for being such a smallish, light puncher primarily winning decisions at home.

6. Micheal Spinks(#7 IBRO LH)

7. Bob Foster(#5 IBRO LH)

8.Roy Jones Jr(#10 IBRO LH) + Jellyman Kellerman's #1 heavy and P4P all time for those who savor boxing's boundless supply of sublime comedy.

9.Gene Tunney(#20 IBRO P4P/#4 LH)

10. Sergey Krusher Kovalev in anticipation of his demolition of Andre "My Imelda Shoe Collection" (MISC) Ward. One shudders to consider Krusher in 6 OZ gloves of yesteryear.

*** Note my selections span 125 years of boxing from when Fitz makes his 1st splash before there was a LH division. I have no bias whatsoever other than I prefer sluggers though classic fighters who are superb boxers like Charles, Tunney, and Spinks easily make my list. Potentially prime to prime any of the lower 5 could beat the upper five, a very competitive division, but I favor Sam in any 3-5 fight series against the 9 as the last man standing. Sam and Sergey also represent true International fighters bookending the rest.