BoxRec

Great thread - so often I read people's points and they're either nonsense or so biased you can't argue. This has got me reading and nodding for aspects of both arguments.

Says great things about Hopkins and GGG though that I think they're definitely comparable.

apollo creed wrote: ↑27 Oct 2018, 04:54

jamamb wrote: ↑27 Oct 2018, 04:49 you can do well in the ams with a range of styles and abilities. beterbiev for example is a straight up slugger yet he won the world am championships

and im not saying ggg doesnt have skill (i did mention the jab for example), but compared to hopkins, its not that impressive and he is glaring easy to hit for being a high level fighter. a bit basic, one might say at the high levels where hop was still schooling guys

Yeah that's why guys like Taylor and Dawson defeat Hopkins. Because of his stellar skills.

Yeah, and only due to those skills he managed to have a draw against such monster as Segundo Mercado !

boxing_rocks wrote: ↑27 Oct 2018, 15:11

apollo creed wrote: ↑27 Oct 2018, 04:54

jamamb wrote: ↑27 Oct 2018, 04:49 you can do well in the ams with a range of styles and abilities. beterbiev for example is a straight up slugger yet he won the world am championships

and im not saying ggg doesnt have skill (i did mention the jab for example), but compared to hopkins, its not that impressive and he is glaring easy to hit for being a high level fighter. a bit basic, one might say at the high levels where hop was still schooling guys

Yeah that's why guys like Taylor and Dawson defeat Hopkins. Because of his stellar skills.

Yeah, and only due to those skills he managed to have a draw against such monster as Segundo Mercado !

Don't forget ATG Joppy.

geronimo wrote: ↑19 Oct 2018, 06:50 For you can be Gennady Golovkin put in the top 10 all time middleweight boxers?

I doubt that he could withstand people like Monzon or Hagler... Not even Nunn, Dick Tiger, Hopkins or Toney... All too fast, powerful or technical.

Let alone Roy Jones jr. and his majesty Sugar Ray Robinson...

I wouldn't even make him top 10.

This Bhop vs GGG thing - believe both were/are underrated - Hopkins in overall ability and ring IQ, GGG in skills like defense and jab, Canelo barely landed at all in the rematch. Although I'd take Bhop in a prime head-to-head matchup, it wouldn't be some Trinidad or Pavlik dismantling. Too much experience between them for anything resembling an easy night's work.

apollo creed wrote: ↑27 Oct 2018, 15:59

boxing_rocks wrote: ↑27 Oct 2018, 15:11

apollo creed wrote: ↑27 Oct 2018, 04:54

Yeah that's why guys like Taylor and Dawson defeat Hopkins. Because of his stellar skills.

Yeah, and only due to those skills he managed to have a draw against such monster as Segundo Mercado !

Don't forget ATG Joppy.

Don't forget what, that he got widely outpointed on all three cards when he fought Hopkins?
EDIT oh, you're just saying it wasn't much of a victory, I take it.

He gave joppy a brutal beating. Joppy was comparable to Jacobs

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑28 Oct 2018, 02:58 He gave joppy a brutal beating. Joppy was comparable to Jacobs

You underappreciate Joppy. He was comparable with Hagler or Monzon.

Blodhemn wrote: ↑27 Oct 2018, 23:07 This Bhop vs GGG thing - believe both were/are underrated - Hopkins in overall ability and ring IQ, GGG in skills like defense and jab,

I've seen GGG take too many embarassing clean shots to be considered defensively more skilled than Hopkins: I've never seen Hopkins' head snap back like Golovkin's when he got hit...

Just look at how GGG keeps his hands: even a train could pass between those hands... A rather dull guard. He's also too slow for Hopkins.

Golovkin just hits hard, and relies almost solely on his own power: pretty one-sided to be considered as an all-time great.

Jacopodb wrote: ↑28 Oct 2018, 05:50

Blodhemn wrote: ↑27 Oct 2018, 23:07 This Bhop vs GGG thing - believe both were/are underrated - Hopkins in overall ability and ring IQ, GGG in skills like defense and jab,

I've seen GGG take too many embarassing clean shots to be considered defensively more skilled than Hopkins: I've never seen Hopkins' head snap back like Golovkin's when he got hit...

Just look at how GGG keeps his hands: even a train could pass between those hands... A rather dull guard. He's also too slow for Hopkins.

Golovkin just hits hard, and relies almost solely on his own power: pretty one-sided to be considered as an all-time great.

Golovkin ignores defense when he knows that an opponent can't hurt him. He was partially doing that to entertain fans in mismatches like against Monroe Jr or Brook.

He outboxed Canelo in his last fight showing very effective defense.

apollo creed wrote: ↑28 Oct 2018, 04:52

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑28 Oct 2018, 02:58 He gave joppy a brutal beating. Joppy was comparable to Jacobs

You underappreciate Joppy. He was comparable with Hagler or Monzon.

... and Mercado was better than Hagler.

boxing_rocks wrote: ↑28 Oct 2018, 10:19

apollo creed wrote: ↑28 Oct 2018, 04:52

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑28 Oct 2018, 02:58 He gave joppy a brutal beating. Joppy was comparable to Jacobs

You underappreciate Joppy. He was comparable with Hagler or Monzon.

... and Mercado was better than Hagler.

Yeah him and Glen Johnson are in the same select gallery with SRR, Joe Louis and Dempsey.

ya, its hopkins opposition that should be mocked and not gggs

jamamb wrote: ↑28 Oct 2018, 11:08 ya, its hopkins opposition that should be mocked and not gggs

Hopkins couldn't beat some of that mediocre opposition including Mercado ! Golovkin was destroying them.

Jacopodb wrote: ↑28 Oct 2018, 05:50

Blodhemn wrote: ↑27 Oct 2018, 23:07 This Bhop vs GGG thing - believe both were/are underrated - Hopkins in overall ability and ring IQ, GGG in skills like defense and jab,

I've seen GGG take too many embarassing clean shots to be considered defensively more skilled than Hopkins: I've never seen Hopkins' head snap back like Golovkin's when he got hit...

Just look at how GGG keeps his hands: even a train could pass between those hands... A rather dull guard. He's also too slow for Hopkins.

Golovkin just hits hard, and relies almost solely on his own power: pretty one-sided to be considered as an all-time great.

Proving my point right here. GGG made Canelo miss the entire night in the rematch from that subtle defense. And I didn't say his defense was above Hopkins', but it's still quite good and underrated. Solely on power? Nah, there's no way he would've went on his long title run if so, but again, just proving my point.

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑28 Oct 2018, 02:58 He gave joppy a brutal beating. Joppy was comparable to Jacobs

- Joppy more like a jalopy by the time of Popkins who lost his $50,000 bet to Joppy. However Lou Dibella had a $2mil lien on Popkin's purses by then, so did Joppy ever collect?


Watching you Hello Kittys in a group hug over the biggest sissy in boxing the heights of sublimity.





Established in the Good Book that God created sissy in the 5th day of Creation, and on parchment that All sissies are created equal, and in George Orwell's 7th Commandment that All sissies are equal, but some sissies are more equal than other sissies.

Enter the mostest mo' sissy in boxing:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=225752

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote: ↑29 Oct 2018, 11:28 - Joppy more like a jalopy by the time of Popkins who lost his $50,000 bet to Joppy. However Lou Dibella had a $2mil lien on Popkin's purses by then, so did Joppy ever collect?

I’m not really involved in this your discussion, but I thought I’d detail some of Joppy’s accomplishments:

William Joppy is a three-time world champion at 160lbs, engaged in fourteen world middleweight title fights (losing only three of them), was listed amongst The RING's top-ten 160lb-ers for five consecutive years between 2000 until 2004 and his resume is littered with big-name world champion calibre opponents, with notable victories against the likes of:

• Shinji Takehara
• Julio Cesar Green
• Roberto Duran
• Hacine Cherifi
• Howard Eastman (never became a world champion but was universally regarded as a genuine top-ten world-rated 160lb-er for six years – according to The RING)

The vast majority of his defeats he encountered was when he was past-his-prime facing world-champion calibre opposition, such as:

• Felix Trinidad
• Bernard Hopkins
• Jermain Taylor
• Lucian Bute
• Beibut Shumenov
• Julio Cesar Green

When William Joppy faced Hopkins, he was holding the WBA world middleweight title, had only previously tasted defeat to a Hall-of-Famer, Felix Trinidad, and had already avenged his other loss against Julio Cesar Green.

In my opinion (in the context of accomplishments), William Joppy should be classed amongst the top ten middleweights of the 21st century.

If we’re comparing the resumes of Joppy’s and Jacobs’ at the time each fought Hopkins’ and Golovkin respectively, then it's abundantly clear that William's was vastly superior than Danny’s. And we’re talking by the proverbial country mile!

I still can't picture how this guy can be so overhyped.

Maybe it's some Russian, Putin-related or opposite political bias.

If you tell me he's a dangerous middleweight, I'd agree, but putting him in an all-time great top-10 list would be a pure hypejob.

Superwelterweight Winky Wright would pretty much dismantle him, both Kelly Pavlik and "Bad Intentions" Taylor would arguably maul him, figure out Bernard Hopkins at middleweight, or Toney or Roy Jones Jr....

He's much-less proficient, p4p, both as an amateur and a professional, than Rigondeaux or Lomachenko.

He's just a fair craftsman, who hits just hard enough, but not enough to beat a natural superwelterweight as Canelo, which, for instance, isn't any Julio Cesar Chavez...

Is it just kids not knowing great middleweights of the past, or else?

I mean: how can this guy be put in the same class than Monzon, Hagler, or even Benvenuti..? Hagler would eat this dude alive...

Jacopodb wrote: ↑18 Dec 2018, 15:13 I still can't picture how this guy can be so overhyped.

Maybe it's some Russian, Putin-related or opposite political bias.

If you tell me he's a dangerous middleweight, I'd agree, but putting him in an all-time great top-10 list would be a pure hypejob.

Superwelterweight Winky Wright would pretty much dismantle him, both Kelly Pavlik and "Bad Intentions" Taylor would arguably maul him, figure out Bernard Hopkins at middleweight, or Toney or Roy Jones Jr....

He's much-less proficient, p4p, both as an amateur and a professional, than Rigondeaux or Lomachenko.

He's just a fair craftsman, who hits just hard enough, but not enough to beat a natural superwelterweight as Canelo, which, for instance, isn't any Julio Cesar Chavez...

Is it just kids not knowing great middleweights of the past, or else?

I mean: how can this guy be put in the same class than Monzon, Hagler, or even Benvenuti..? Hagler would eat this dude alive...

Agree with bold point. Limited exposure to past champions and believing in over-hyped superstars of the present.

oogiebe wrote: ↑18 Dec 2018, 15:15

Jacopodb wrote: ↑18 Dec 2018, 15:13 I still can't picture how this guy can be so overhyped.

Maybe it's some Russian, Putin-related or opposite political bias.

If you tell me he's a dangerous middleweight, I'd agree, but putting him in an all-time great top-10 list would be a pure hypejob.

Superwelterweight Winky Wright would pretty much dismantle him, both Kelly Pavlik and "Bad Intentions" Taylor would arguably maul him, figure out Bernard Hopkins at middleweight, or Toney or Roy Jones Jr....

He's much-less proficient, p4p, both as an amateur and a professional, than Rigondeaux or Lomachenko.

He's just a fair craftsman, who hits just hard enough, but not enough to beat a natural superwelterweight as Canelo, which, for instance, isn't any Julio Cesar Chavez...

Is it just kids not knowing great middleweights of the past, or else?

I mean: how can this guy be put in the same class than Monzon, Hagler, or even Benvenuti..? Hagler would eat this dude alive...

Agree with bold point. Limited exposure to past champions and believing in over-hyped superstars of the present.

Thanks for the recognition, but you don't even need to dig in a distant past to find hard opposition (Sugar Ray Robinson or La Motta...): imagine throwing GGG inside the the ring with a robust hard-hitter like few years ago's Arthur Abraham at middleweight, for example: poor GGG would run for his life..!

frosty

It'd be interesting to see GGG with a new trainer, just to see what's left and who still wants to face him.

Perhaps once he's retired he might get the same acclaim Hagler does now. I doubt whether most fans realise just how much Marvin was underappreciated in his own time. The now considered legend was rarely, if ever, the 'A' side during his career. Along with his trainers Pat and Goody Petronelli, they were the habitual outsiders. That's the way it worked then and that's the way it works now.

And then came Las Vegas, NSAC and the Leonard fight.

Talking of Leonard, if Ray had foregone the Norris and Camacho fights he'd now be seen as alongside SRR.

Thomastearns wrote: ↑18 Dec 2018, 16:00 It'd be interesting to see GGG with a new trainer, just to see what's left and who still wants to face him.

Perhaps once he's retired he might get the same acclaim Hagler does now. I doubt whether most fans realise just how much Marvin was underappreciated in his own time. The now considered legend was rarely, if ever, the 'A' side during his career. Along with his trainers Pat and Goody Petronelli, they were the habitual outsiders. That's the way it worked then and that's the way it works now.

And then came Las Vegas, NSAC and the Leonard fight.

Talking of Leonard, if Ray had foregone the Norris and Camacho fights he'd now be seen as alongside SRR.

Nice post Thomas!

As it stands right now I could see ranking Golovkin between maybe 13 and 20 in an All Time Middleweight list, doubt he'd rank any higher than that at the time being, and I'm a big, big fan of the guy, but the Middleweight division has a ridiculously rich history of truly great fighters.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑18 Dec 2018, 16:11 As it stands right now I could see ranking Golovkin between maybe 13 and 20 in an All Time Middleweight list, doubt he'd rank any higher than that at the time being, and I'm a big, big fan of the guy, but the Middleweight division has a ridiculously rich history of truly great fighters.

13 - 20 is too high for me. But it's hard to compare current and former era fighters. But I do agree, perhaps the RICHEST history in boxing.