Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑03 Nov 2018, 14:31
One obvious massive difference between the big heavyweights of today and those of the pre-90s is that they are dominating the division whereas in prior eras they never came close to dominating and often never even made it to the top 10. There is an enormous difference in results. They also look better on film.
Look at who Simon, Carnera, etc lost to relative to Lewis, Vitali, etc
Vitali was no Louis, in any category.
Re: Rocky Marciano vs Deontay Wilder
Posted: 03 Nov 2018, 14:55
by keithmoonhangover
astradamus wrote: ↑03 Nov 2018, 14:12
Yes, but he never seen any 6ft7, 220 pound boxer in the strength of his life vs a 5ft9 180 pound boxer.
As he died before Wilder was born, I'm pretty sure that Dempsey didn't have an informed opinion of Wilder's boxing skills.
There are always exceptions in anyone’s career however generally speaking Marciano wore the top guys down by clubbing them to defeat. If you look at Marcianos title fights they were mostly hard fights,. 13 rounds, 1 round, 11 rounds, 15 rounds, 8 rounds and 9 rounds. Marciano was a good puncher, I have never said he wasn’t but not the huge puncher many would have you believe. Walcott was twice knocked out with one punch but that isn’t a reflection of all Marciano’s top wins. Can you see Wilder pounding on Cockell for 8 rounds, he would’ve flattened him in no time.
So who is the bigger puncher Wilder or Marciano?
There is no way to know who is a bigger puncher.
Can I see Wilder pounding on Cockell for 8 rounds?
Can you see Marciano pounding on Eric Molina for 9 rounds?
I see Wilder having a far easier time against Cockell than Marciano would have against Molina.
I can't see Stiverne (when chamption) lasting 12 rounds with Marciano.
Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑03 Nov 2018, 14:31
One obvious massive difference between the big heavyweights of today and those of the pre-90s is that they are dominating the division whereas in prior eras they never came close to dominating and often never even made it to the top 10. There is an enormous difference in results. They also look better on film.
Look at who Simon, Carnera, etc lost to relative to Lewis, Vitali, etc
Vitali was no Louis, in any category.
Carnera actually had some good wins. Vitaly has a grand total of zero.. (this is the part where someone says Corrie Sanders was really good.)
Carnera was no Lennox Lewis. Neither was Vitaly. Abe Simon and Buddy Baer has better wins.
Lexnnox and Bowe are the only really big heavyweights who were great. No one else is close. Not Vitaly, or Glassjaw.
Wilder, Fury and Joshua have not proved anything yet.
Food for thought: Dempsey fought tall guys with big reaches. Guys far heavier than him. He blew them away. Many think Marciano was better than Dempsey.
Re: Rocky Marciano vs Deontay Wilder
Posted: 03 Nov 2018, 15:30
by Yuzo
astradamus wrote: ↑03 Nov 2018, 14:22
Things changed over time, Jack Dempsey has never seen Mike Tyson punching. It's like me saying 2100 boxers will be rubbish.
some things stay the same. hip rotation, weight transfer, and follow through, are but a few.
Re: Rocky Marciano vs Deontay Wilder
Posted: 03 Nov 2018, 15:36
by Cojimar 1946
Bowe's greatness is based on what exactly? He has an incredibly thin resume and aside from Holyfield beat virtually no ranked opponents. He also got absolutely dominated by Andrew Golota in his prime. You can make a better case for Vitali being great than you can for Bowe.
Joshua's resume is arguably already better than Bowe's.
Re: Rocky Marciano vs Deontay Wilder
Posted: 03 Nov 2018, 15:45
by DrDuke
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑03 Nov 2018, 15:27
Carnera actually had some good wins. Vitaly has a grand total of zero.. (this is the part where someone says Corrie Sanders was really good.)
Carnera was no Lennox Lewis. Neither was Vitaly. Abe Simon and Buddy Baer has better wins.
Lexnnox and Bowe are the only really big heavyweights who were great. No one else is close. Not Vitaly, or Glassjaw.
Wilder, Fury and Joshua have not proved anything yet.
Food for thought: Dempsey fought tall guys with big reaches. Guys far heavier than him. He blew them away. Many think Marciano was better than Dempsey.
In Carnera's and Willard's times there were not much advantages from the size, because boxing overall skillset level was lower, using of the size as a skill became usual much later, when behemoths began to be usual. Lewis and Bowe were the first in the young era of giants. Obviously this is the reason, why you can't find too many greats among big boxers. But height, reach and size overall are evident advantages. Evident is the greatness of Klitschkos as well, both of them are in HW top-20 list for sure.
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑03 Nov 2018, 15:27
Carnera actually had some good wins. Vitaly has a grand total of zero.. (this is the part where someone says Corrie Sanders was really good.)
Carnera was no Lennox Lewis. Neither was Vitaly. Abe Simon and Buddy Baer has better wins.
Lexnnox and Bowe are the only really big heavyweights who were great. No one else is close. Not Vitaly, or Glassjaw.
Wilder, Fury and Joshua have not proved anything yet.
Food for thought: Dempsey fought tall guys with big reaches. Guys far heavier than him. He blew them away. Many think Marciano was better than Dempsey.
In Carnera's and Willard's times there were not much advantages from the size, because boxing overall skillset level was lower, using of the size as a skill became usual much later, when behemoths began to be usual. Lewis and Bowe were the first in the young era of giants. Obviously this is the reason, why you can't find too many greats among big boxers. But height, reach and size overall are evident advantages. Evident is the greatness of Klitschkos as well, both of them are in HW top-20 list for sure.
This post was tongue in cheek, right? The skill set in Carnera's day was lower than now? The greatness of the Klitschkos? Top 20 list for sure.
Re: Rocky Marciano vs Deontay Wilder
Posted: 03 Nov 2018, 16:52
by DrDuke
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑03 Nov 2018, 16:45
This post was tongue in cheek, right? The skill set in Carnera's day was lower than now? The greatness of the Klitschkos? Top 20 list for sure.
Of course, in Carnera's time skillset was lower. Sports is progressing, as everything in the World. Once there were fighters, now there are athletes. And Klitschkos were great champions.
Re: Rocky Marciano vs Deontay Wilder
Posted: 03 Nov 2018, 17:17
by Cojimar 1946
Many people today rate Wladimir Klitschko in their top 10. He is rapidly gaining recognition as an all time great.
Re: Rocky Marciano vs Deontay Wilder
Posted: 03 Nov 2018, 17:22
by DrDuke
Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑03 Nov 2018, 17:17
Many people today rate Wladimir Klitschko in their top 10. He is rapidly gaining recognition as an all time great.
It's common to find value in something after there's no longer such thing.
I can't see Stiverne (when chamption) lasting 12 rounds with Marciano.
He lasted one in the rematch. The first right hand Wilder decked him with would’ve sent Rocky flying.
Mate, I'd pick Charles and Walcott to beat Wilder, I wouldn't pick a single Wilder opponent to beat Marciano.
Haha, oh dear. I do love rose tinted glasses. It's well documented that Marciano was fortunate to get the decisions over Lowry and LaStarza, the man was officially unbeaten, not unbeatable. Just out of interest I assume you don't think Marciano would beat every HW who ever lived? If not what HWs do you think would beat him and why?
Controversial wrote: ↑03 Nov 2018, 13:49
Surely Joshua and Wilder have better KO percentages?
they one day may. but not just yet.
Controversial wrote: ↑03 Nov 2018, 13:49
Marciano generally fought blown up LHWs, fighters not that much bigger than Marciano. They were generally fighters coming to the end of their careers or not really HWs. This goes back to the point that the best guys in recent years are big and not blown up LHWs or CWs. If blown up LHWs and CWs could compete fairly today where are they?
or said differently, we know marciano can ko small heavyweights, but can he ko big heavyweights? i say yes.
You're dodging the question. If blown up LHWs and CWs were once top contenders and world champions why are they not anymore?
Re: Rocky Marciano vs Deontay Wilder
Posted: 03 Nov 2018, 20:36
by Duran1970
The word greatness and Klitschko s don't belong in the same sentence.... top 10 heavy all time????? C'mon people, give your heads a shake.
Re: Rocky Marciano vs Deontay Wilder
Posted: 03 Nov 2018, 20:58
by Onetimeonly
You can make a case for vitality outside the top 50. He has no resume past his losses.
Re: Rocky Marciano vs Deontay Wilder
Posted: 03 Nov 2018, 21:01
by tiny_acres
Onetimeonly wrote: ↑03 Nov 2018, 20:58
You can make a case for vitality outside the top 50. He has no resume past his losses.
Onetimeonly wrote: ↑03 Nov 2018, 20:58
You can make a case for vitality outside the top 50. He has no resume past his losses.
Where do you rate Wladamir?
I don't have a list that deep. Probably 25-30, he's reasonable in the top 20. Anyone that rates vitali is relying on their powers of prognostication. A ridiculous method. He never beat a top 100 heavy on anyone's list
He lasted one in the rematch. The first right hand Wilder decked him with would’ve sent Rocky flying.
Mate, I'd pick Charles and Walcott to beat Wilder, I wouldn't pick a single Wilder opponent to beat Marciano.
Haha, oh dear. I do love rose tinted glasses. It's well documented that Marciano was fortunate to get the decisions over Lowry and LaStarza, the man was officially unbeaten, not unbeatable. Just out of interest I assume you don't think Marciano would beat every HW who ever lived? If not what HWs do you think would beat him and why?
Ali, Foreman, Holmes, Liston, Johnson, and Lewis all beat Marciano. Tunney, Dempsey, Holyfield, Louis, Tyson, Patterson and the Klitsckos are all possible victors.
I don't have rose tinted glasses, just an opinion.
He lasted one in the rematch. The first right hand Wilder decked him with would’ve sent Rocky flying.
Mate, I'd pick Charles and Walcott to beat Wilder, I wouldn't pick a single Wilder opponent to beat Marciano.
Haha, oh dear. I do love rose tinted glasses. It's well documented that Marciano was fortunate to get the decisions over Lowry and LaStarza, the man was officially unbeaten, not unbeatable. Just out of interest I assume you don't think Marciano would beat every HW who ever lived? If not what HWs do you think would beat him and why?
Ali, Foreman, Holmes, Liston, Johnson, and Lewis all beat Marciano. Tunney, Dempsey, Holyfield, Louis, Tyson, Patterson and the Klitsckos are all possible victors.
I don't have rose tinted glasses, just an opinion.
Re: Rocky Marciano vs Deontay Wilder
Posted: 04 Nov 2018, 05:38
by Yuzo
Controversial wrote: ↑03 Nov 2018, 20:31
You're dodging the question. If blown up LHWs and CWs were once top contenders and world champions why are they not anymore?
your question is a straw man.
chris byrd says he had to eat and bulk up to become a heavyweight. he was, in his own words, not a true heavyweight. small skilled guys like byrd have to go through a body transformation to end up at heavyweight. big guys are already heavyweights.
why dont more become heavyweight champions? one reason may be because most dont become heavyweights.
heres chris byrd answering why he chose to move up to heavyweight. i think his story is probably a common one for guys his size.
chris byrd beat a few big heavyweights. james toney beat a few big heavyweights. but we are talking about rocky marciano.
Controversial wrote: ↑03 Nov 2018, 20:31
You're dodging the question. If blown up LHWs and CWs were once top contenders and world champions why are they not anymore?
your question is a straw man.
chris byrd says he had to eat and bulk up to become a heavyweight. he was, in his own words, not a true heavyweight. small skilled guys like byrd have to go through a body transfromation to end up at heavyweight. big guys are already heavyweights.
why dont more become heavyweight champions? one reason may be because most dont become heavyweights.
heres chris byrd answering why he chose to move up to heavyweight. i think his story is probably a common one for guys his size.
chris byrd beat a few big heavyweights. james toney beat a few big heavyweights. but we are talking about rocky marciano.
My point proven, Byrd admits in that video he couldn't trade with big guys as he wasn't a true HW. They are still few and far between these days, small guys don't dominate the division like they used to, that is a fact not an opinion. Chris Byrd was small for a HW but still 6'2" and had 20lbs on Marciano. He also had the style to have success, he was slick, fast and hard to hit. Not a 5'9" slugger with a 67" reach (Marciano said his reach was 67" in an interview). Toney another very good technical fighter, great in fact. Most of the small HWs that had success in recent times have had speed and/or great boxing ability as their main asset. That's why they had success. Marciano had neither of these.
Re: Rocky Marciano vs Deontay Wilder
Posted: 04 Nov 2018, 06:27
by Onetimeonly
None of the heavies in recent times have had much of a clue how to fight on the inside. Marciano definitely knew how to do that
Re: Rocky Marciano vs Deontay Wilder
Posted: 04 Nov 2018, 06:38
by Yuzo
Controversial wrote: ↑04 Nov 2018, 06:15
My point proven, Byrd admits in that video he couldn't trade with big guys as he wasn't a true HW. They are still few and far between these days. Small guys don't dominate the division like they used to, that its a fact not an opinion. Chris Byrd was small for a HW but still 6'2" and had 20lbs on Marciano. He also had the style to have success, has he slick, fast and hard to hit. Not a 5'9" slugger with a 67" reach (Marciano said his reach was 67" in an interview). Toney another very good technical fighter, great in fact.
well, guess what, toney withstood some big punches by some big punchers at heavyweight and he was smaller than byrd. a good chin size does not grant.
Controversial wrote: ↑04 Nov 2018, 06:15
Most of the small HWs that had success in recent times have had speed and/or great boxing ability as their main asset. That's why they had success. Marciano had neither of these assets.
says you. i say, boxing is not so cut and dry, and marciano can beat big heavyweights.
