BoxRec

Lol

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑09 Jan 2019, 16:46 Price beat Cuevas and Palomino before he fought Leonard. He was ranked when Leonard beat him. .
Muniz held his own for 15 rounds against Palomino in his previous fight. He was ranked.
Chiaverini was a ranked middleweight when a young Leonard beat him. How many welterweight prospects take on middleweight contenders?
Shields, Ranzany were legitimate contenders for quite some time. Viruet was a good fighter.

To be taking on these guys as a prospect is pretty good. He probably has the best pre-title shot resume of anyone in the last 50 years.

Duran's pre-title fight resume is weak and Monzon's is almost a joke. Any you guys are going to pick holes with these guys? Wow.
Almost all of their wins against people that are unknown outside of their immediate families.

I can pick holes in anyone that Duran, Monzon, or Hagler beat before they fought for a title. Go ahead, name somebody.

You gotta be kidding me. Pete Ranzany? Randy Shields? A washed up Armando Muniz?

Let's look at Roberto Duran:
Before he became champion, Duran beat:

WTKO10 Ernesto Marcel. If you say that Ranzany, Shields and Price were better than Marcel, who indeed was an outstanding champion, THEN THIS DEBATE IS OVER.

WKO7 Hiroshi Kobayashi. Again, If Ranzany, Shields or Price were better than Kobayashi, a champion that reigned for 4 years, THEN THIS DEBATE IS OVER.

W10 Robinson Garcia. This Cuban journeyman, fought who is who in boxing. Check his resume. I can't see Ranzany, Price or Shields better than he. If you say that, THEN YOU DON'T KNOW CRAP ABOUT BOXING OUTSIDE THE AMERICAN SCENE! NUFF SAID.

To say that Duran didn't go through serious tests before being champion is convincing me that either you hate him, or you just biased for Leonard.

Marvelous Marvin Hagler: Marvelous had to wait 50 fights and 6 years to get a title shot. Before being a champion, he beat:

W10 Sugar Ray Seales. I think you know him, right? He was a gold medalist in 1972. He fought Seales twice.

Fought Willie Monroe 3 times! Not too many people wanted to fight Monroe, a Philadelphia fighter. Do you know about Philadelphia fighting legacy, right?

Fought Bobby Watts three times, too. Another Philadelphia top contender. Marvelous had to go to their backyards to test his skills.

Fought Eugene "Cyclone" Hart. You know about him, right? Another top middleweight contender that nobody wanted to fight. And why? Because Hart was one of boxing's all time greatest punchers. Look at his record.

He beat Bennie Briscoe. Oh yeah, you might come with this Bad Bennie was washed up and all that. He was still in the top 10 middleweight rankings. If Ranzany, Shields or Price were better than those 5 above, then THIS DEBATE IS OVER.

And now Carlos Monzon before being champion:

He drew with dangerous Bennie Briscoe in Argentina.

He fought Andres Selpa, a terrific boxer from Argentina that fought over 150 fights.

He fought Jorge Fernandez. Another excellent and outstanding contender from Argentina. Unfortunately, you don't know much about South American boxing. The farthest you go is Mexico. You don't know much about boxers from Latin America.

If Shields, Ranzany or Price were better than Bad Bennie, THEN THIS DEBATE SHOULD BE OVER!

Leonard fought better fighters before being champion against Duran, Hagler and Monzon. Laughable at best!

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑10 Jan 2019, 09:22Lol

You don't know much about fighters from Latin America.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑10 Jan 2019, 09:38

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑10 Jan 2019, 09:22Lol

You don't know much about fighters from Latin America.

You don't know much about any fighters.

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑10 Jan 2019, 10:20

elmersalsa wrote: ↑10 Jan 2019, 09:38

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑10 Jan 2019, 09:22Lol

You don't know much about fighters from Latin America.

You don't know much about any fighters.

Yes, I do.

A wise man once told me, "You can't teach someone who knows everything."

elmersalsa wrote: ↑10 Jan 2019, 10:43

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑10 Jan 2019, 10:20

elmersalsa wrote: ↑10 Jan 2019, 09:38

You don't know much about fighters from Latin America.

You don't know much about any fighters.

Yes, I do.

Sure you do, your bias outweighs any knowledge and prohibits you from having an objective discussion. The lack of consistency in your criteria is epic. Quite sad as you've obviously watched the sport for a long time.

He has always been like this. He mocks Leonard winning world titles above 147 but makes a big deal about Ray Lampkin being an NABF champion in order to prop up Duran.

Look at how he puffs up Duran's opponents:
Koboyashi-A decent win, but he lost his previous fight and had never beaten a lightweight.
Robinson Garcia-elmer says himself that Garcia was a journeyman! And still claims this as a big win. The guy had 55 fights before fighting Duran. Won one of his previous 6 fights.

We are supposed to be impressed by Monzon's win Andres Selpa? Again The guy had 42 losses before Monzon fought him.
He brings up Monzon's draw with Brisco in Argentina. Gee, wonder who really won that fight.

He mentions Hagler's wins over Seales, Monroe, Watts Hart, and a fading Briscoe. I never said Hagler didn't fight some good competition before fighting for the title. Those were decent fighters. But no better than Ranzany, Shields, Muniz, Price etc.
Hagler managed to lose to Monroe and Watts. Seales was was literally blind in their rematch.

Leonard was a welterweight and beat a ranked middleweight before fighting for the title and he mocks him for it!
How many ranked welterweights did Duran beat before fighting for the lightweight title? That would none.
What ranked light heavyweights did Monzon and Hagler beat before winning the middleweight title? How about any ranked light heavyweights they ever beat in their entire careers? That would be none.

What ever happened to respecting people's opinions? F'n name calling and profiling is lame.

I didn't call him any name.
Profiling?

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑10 Jan 2019, 14:26 I didn't call him any name.
Profiling?

That's good!

I didn't call him any names either. Lol

Anwya, this argument that Leonard's resume lacks depth doesn't hold up.

He beat one middleweight contender when he was a young welterweight. How many ranked middleweight contenders did Carlos Monzon beat before winning the title? That would be a big fat zero. That's right, Ray Leonard beat more ranked middleweight contenders before he won the welterweight title than Carlos Monzon did before winning the middleweight title!

Number of ranked contenders/champions that Leonard beat in his career? 17

Monzon had only 15
Hagler only had 14.

Leonard's very top wins are clearly better than Monzon, Haglers, or Duran's for that matter.
So what is the argument against Leonard. The 12th best opponent that he beat was not as good as the 12th best that Monzon, Hagler and Duran beat?

Were guys like Tony Licata and Tony Sibson and Ray Lampkin were somehow light years better than Pete Ranzany, Davey Boy Green, Armando Muniz, Andy Price etc?
And that somehow makes Leonard's resume not as good? Because that is what your argument boils down to.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑10 Jan 2019, 16:48 Anwya, this argument that Leonard's resume lacks depth doesn't hold up.

He beat one middleweight contender when he was a young welterweight. How many ranked middleweight contenders did Carlos Monzon beat before winning the title? That would be a big fat zero. That's right, Ray Leonard beat more ranked middleweight contenders before he won the welterweight title than Carlos Monzon did before winning the middleweight title!

Number of ranked contenders/champions that Leonard beat in his career? 17

Monzon had only 15
Hagler only had 14.

Leonard's very top wins are clearly better than Monzon, Haglers, or Duran's for that matter.
So what is the argument against Leonard. The 12th best opponent that he beat was not as good as the 12th best that Monzon, Hagler and Duran beat?

Were guys like Tony Licata and Tony Sibson and Ray Lampkin were somehow light years better than Pete Ranzany, Davey Boy Green, Armando Muniz, Andy Price etc?
And that somehow makes Leonard's resume not as good? Because that is what your argument boils down to.

Out of curiosity, how many championship belts were there during Monzon's and Hagler's prime? All three of these guys are ATG's. All three have the resume's to back it up. In the grand scheme, we're just quibbling at this point. OTO ranks the three differently than I do, so what? I'm done here...it's been fun.

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑10 Jan 2019, 10:55

elmersalsa wrote: ↑10 Jan 2019, 10:43

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑10 Jan 2019, 10:20

You don't know much about any fighters.

Yes, I do.

Sure you do, your bias outweighs any knowledge and prohibits you from having an objective discussion. The lack of consistency in your criteria is epic. Quite sad as you've obviously watched the sport for a long time.

Thank you, Mark Lyons!

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑10 Jan 2019, 11:56 He has always been like this. He mocks Leonard winning world titles above 147 but makes a big deal about Ray Lampkin being an NABF champion in order to prop up Duran.

Look at how he puffs up Duran's opponents:
Koboyashi-A decent win, but he lost his previous fight and had never beaten a lightweight.
Robinson Garcia-elmer says himself that Garcia was a journeyman! And still claims this as a big win. The guy had 55 fights before fighting Duran. Won one of his previous 6 fights.

We are supposed to be impressed by Monzon's win Andres Selpa? Again The guy had 42 losses before Monzon fought him.
He brings up Monzon's draw with Brisco in Argentina. Gee, wonder who really won that fight.

He mentions Hagler's wins over Seales, Monroe, Watts Hart, and a fading Briscoe. I never said Hagler didn't fight some good competition before fighting for the title. Those were decent fighters. But no better than Ranzany, Shields, Muniz, Price etc.
Hagler managed to lose to Monroe and Watts. Seales was was literally blind in their rematch.

Leonard was a welterweight and beat a ranked middleweight before fighting for the title and he mocks him for it!
How many ranked welterweights did Duran beat before fighting for the lightweight title? That would none.
What ranked light heavyweights did Monzon and Hagler beat before winning the middleweight title? How about any ranked light heavyweights they ever beat in their entire careers? That would be none.

End of DEBATE. Shields, Ranzany, Price and Chiaverini were better than Bennie Briscoe and Hiroshi Kobayashi.

Koybashi was not a lightweight and Briscoe was well past it when Hagler beat him; and didn't look good in doing it.

oogiebe wrote: ↑10 Jan 2019, 18:45

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑10 Jan 2019, 16:48 Anwya, this argument that Leonard's resume lacks depth doesn't hold up.

He beat one middleweight contender when he was a young welterweight. How many ranked middleweight contenders did Carlos Monzon beat before winning the title? That would be a big fat zero. That's right, Ray Leonard beat more ranked middleweight contenders before he won the welterweight title than Carlos Monzon did before winning the middleweight title!

Number of ranked contenders/champions that Leonard beat in his career? 17

Monzon had only 15
Hagler only had 14.

Leonard's very top wins are clearly better than Monzon, Haglers, or Duran's for that matter.
So what is the argument against Leonard. The 12th best opponent that he beat was not as good as the 12th best that Monzon, Hagler and Duran beat?

Were guys like Tony Licata and Tony Sibson and Ray Lampkin were somehow light years better than Pete Ranzany, Davey Boy Green, Armando Muniz, Andy Price etc?
And that somehow makes Leonard's resume not as good? Because that is what your argument boils down to.

Out of curiosity, how many championship belts were there during Monzon's and Hagler's prime? All three of these guys are ATG's. All three have the resume's to back it up. In the grand scheme, we're just quibbling at this point. OTO ranks the three differently than I do, so what? I'm done here...it's been fun.

Two major belts for Monzon, two for most of Hagler's. (Duran and Leonard's for that matter.) The IBF was around by the time Hagler fought Leonard. All of these guys were all time greats. Leonard was the best of them and his resume clearly backs it up.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑10 Jan 2019, 19:51

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑10 Jan 2019, 10:55

elmersalsa wrote: ↑10 Jan 2019, 10:43

Yes, I do.

Sure you do, your bias outweighs any knowledge and prohibits you from having an objective discussion. The lack of consistency in your criteria is epic. Quite sad as you've obviously watched the sport for a long time.

Thank you, Mark Lyons!

You're quite welcome Elmer!