Re: Sonny Liston (1963) vs. current HWs ?
Posted: 27 May 2020, 11:19
It's all you bruh. Produce one to start the chat.
BoxRec
Sonny Liston (1963) vs. current HWs ?
Page 7 of 21
Re: Sonny Liston (1963) vs. current HWs ?
Posted: 27 May 2020, 11:27
Re: Sonny Liston (1963) vs. current HWs ?
Posted: 27 May 2020, 11:41
I will try to make the list, without any preparation, without use of Google. So, this is my list :
1. Foreman
2. Bowe
3. Lewis
4. V.Klitschko
5. W. Klitschko
6. Tyson Fury
That's all. If you want you may put Valuev on this list.
Re: Sonny Liston (1963) vs. current HWs ?
Posted: 27 May 2020, 13:06
Why have you specified a criteria requiring at least ten champions weighing 240lbs or more?
Are you new to the sport of boxing?
Some of the really big men enjoyed lengthy title reigns.
How about I quantify things by amount of title fights and time periods?
You’d probably tell me not to bother, because the stats won’t support your argument.
Come on kid, be brave and change your criteria to take into consideration lengthy title reigns.
Re: Sonny Liston (1963) vs. current HWs ?
Posted: 27 May 2020, 13:13
Enlightened-One wrote: ↑27 May 2020, 13:06Why have you specified a criteria requiring at least ten champions weighing 240lbs or more?
Are you new to the sport of boxing?
Some of the really big men enjoyed lengthy title reigns.
How about I quantify things by amount of title fights and time periods?
You’d probably tell me not to bother, because the stats won’t support your argument.
Come on kid, be brave and change your criteria to take into consideration lengthy title reigns.
Leave him alone. He asked for a legitimate list. Why insult the lad? Oh yeah...it's what you do to feel better about yourself. 
Re: Sonny Liston (1963) vs. current HWs ?
Posted: 27 May 2020, 13:31
For a lot of people this really is not about the weight. This is really about eras. Many people have no interest in looking at the the sport's history before they became a fan.
Without much thought they dismiss a guy because he was lighter. He can't be good because of that. Weight is too important to overcome. When you point out the all the times that lighter guys beat heavier guys, then suddenly it becomes the bigger guys back then (whom they know little about) weren't good.
Without much thought they dismiss a guy because he was lighter. He can't be good because of that. Weight is too important to overcome. When you point out the all the times that lighter guys beat heavier guys, then suddenly it becomes the bigger guys back then (whom they know little about) weren't good.
Re: Sonny Liston (1963) vs. current HWs ?
Posted: 27 May 2020, 13:32
I'd argue that all of these guys weighed roughly 240lbs or more, with the vast majority being 6' 4" or more:oogiebe wrote: ↑27 May 2020, 13:13Enlightened-One wrote: ↑27 May 2020, 13:06
Why have you specified a criteria requiring at least ten champions weighing 240lbs or more?
Are you new to the sport of boxing?
Some of the really big men enjoyed lengthy title reigns.
How about I quantify things by amount of title fights and time periods?
You’d probably tell me not to bother, because the stats won’t support your argument.
Come on kid, be brave and change your criteria to take into consideration lengthy title reigns.
• Anthony Joshua
• Andy Ruiz Jr
• Charles Martin
• Tyson Fury
• Wladimir Klitschko
• Vitali Klitschko
• Lennox Lewis
• George Foreman
• Riddick Bowe
• Samuel Peter
• Oleg Maskaev
• Frank Bruno
• James Douglas
• Ruslan Chagaev
• Lucas Browne
• Nikolay Valuev
• John Ruiz
• Joseph Parker
• Shannon Briggs
Notable mentions: Bermane Stiverne & Hasim Rahman weighed roughly 240lbs (238lbs & 239lbs) for their title bouts.
For sure, one or two might be half an inch or so shorter than 6' 4", but ValMar's criteria was fabricated in his own mind and a centimetre discrepancy doesn't really endorse his argument.
If you review the amount of title bouts since 1993, I'd also argue that the vast majority of the world heavyweight champions and title defences were performed by really big men.
For the record, my point is perfectly valid, the heavyweight title scene has been dominated by tall heavy men since the mid-nineties (i.e. Riddick Bowe, Lennox Lewis, Vitali Klitschko, Wladimir Klitschko, Anthony Joshua, Tyson Fury etc.).
If I listed the amount of heavyweight title fights involving at least one fighter weighing 240lbs or more since 1993, the stats are staggering, because it's nearly all of them.
And I think you're smart enough to realise this.
Re: Sonny Liston (1963) vs. current HWs ?
Posted: 27 May 2020, 14:01
Re: Sonny Liston (1963) vs. current HWs ?
Posted: 27 May 2020, 14:07
I don't know anything about you, and I am not interested, but I suppose that I had been boxing fan before you were born.Enlightened-One wrote: ↑27 May 2020, 13:06Why have you specified a criteria requiring at least ten champions weighing 240lbs or more?
Are you new to the sport of boxing?
Some of the really big men enjoyed lengthy title reigns.
How about I quantify things by amount of title fights and time periods?
You’d probably tell me not to bother, because the stats won’t support your argument.
Come on kid, be brave and change your criteria to take into consideration lengthy title reigns.
I can remember Ali-Frazier 1, I was six. Tell me if I am wrong.
I made a mistake, I thought about the great/genuine HW champions. I apologised in the previous post.
Re: Sonny Liston (1963) vs. current HWs ?
Posted: 27 May 2020, 14:10
Muhammad AliEnlightened-One wrote: ↑27 May 2020, 13:06Why have you specified a criteria requiring at least ten champions weighing 240lbs or more?
Are you new to the sport of boxing?
Some of the really big men enjoyed lengthy title reigns.
How about I quantify things by amount of title fights and time periods?
You’d probably tell me not to bother, because the stats won’t support your argument.
Come on kid, be brave and change your criteria to take into consideration lengthy title reigns.
Larry Holmes
Evander Holyfield
Jack Dempsey
Rocky Marciano
Joe Louis
All easily All Time Top 10 Heavyweights or at least in the conversation, and they were all under 240 pounds. Some were under 200.
Re: Sonny Liston (1963) vs. current HWs ?
Posted: 27 May 2020, 14:21
Tyson, too............Maybe not top 10, but top 20, definitely.............gilgamesh wrote: ↑27 May 2020, 14:10Muhammad AliEnlightened-One wrote: ↑27 May 2020, 13:06
Why have you specified a criteria requiring at least ten champions weighing 240lbs or more?
Are you new to the sport of boxing?
Some of the really big men enjoyed lengthy title reigns.
How about I quantify things by amount of title fights and time periods?
You’d probably tell me not to bother, because the stats won’t support your argument.
Come on kid, be brave and change your criteria to take into consideration lengthy title reigns.
Larry Holmes
Evander Holyfield
Jack Dempsey
Rocky Marciano
Joe Louis
All easily All Time Top 10 Heavyweights or at least in the conversation, and they were all under 240 pounds. Some were under 200.
Re: Sonny Liston (1963) vs. current HWs ?
Posted: 27 May 2020, 14:21
ValMar’s original question related to world heavyweight champions weighing roughly 240lbs or more, whilst also being in the ballpark of 6’4” or more.gilgamesh wrote: ↑27 May 2020, 14:10Muhammad AliEnlightened-One wrote: ↑27 May 2020, 13:06
Why have you specified a criteria requiring at least ten champions weighing 240lbs or more?
Are you new to the sport of boxing?
Some of the really big men enjoyed lengthy title reigns.
How about I quantify things by amount of title fights and time periods?
You’d probably tell me not to bother, because the stats won’t support your argument.
Come on kid, be brave and change your criteria to take into consideration lengthy title reigns.
Larry Holmes
Evander Holyfield
Jack Dempsey
Rocky Marciano
Joe Louis
All easily All Time Top 10 Heavyweights or at least in the conversation, and they were all under 240 pounds. Some were under 200.
My list addressed this challenge, but he subsequently chose to move the goalposts after I detailed 21 fighters and argued that nearly all world heavyweight title fights since 1993 involved at least one fighter weighing 240lbs or more.
So your list doesn’t reflect the original challenge.
Re: Sonny Liston (1963) vs. current HWs ?
Posted: 27 May 2020, 14:24
You asked a question you didn’t think anyone could answer.ValMar wrote: ↑27 May 2020, 14:07I don't know anything about you, and I am not interested, but I suppose that I had been boxing fan before you were born.Enlightened-One wrote: ↑27 May 2020, 13:06
Why have you specified a criteria requiring at least ten champions weighing 240lbs or more?
Are you new to the sport of boxing?
Some of the really big men enjoyed lengthy title reigns.
How about I quantify things by amount of title fights and time periods?
You’d probably tell me not to bother, because the stats won’t support your argument.
Come on kid, be brave and change your criteria to take into consideration lengthy title reigns.
I can remember Ali-Frazier 1, I was six. Tell me if I am wrong.
I made a mistake, I thought about the great/genuine HW champions. I apologised in the previous post.
I answered it. And you realised my information was accurate.
So you moved the goalposts afterwards, because you couldn’t defend your original train of thought.
Am I correct or not? All I need is a “yes” or “no” answer.
Re: Sonny Liston (1963) vs. current HWs ?
Posted: 27 May 2020, 14:32
I wasn't referring to any challenge. Just making a general point.Enlightened-One wrote: ↑27 May 2020, 14:21ValMar’s original question related to world heavyweight champions weighing roughly 240lbs or more, whilst also being in the ballpark of 6’4” or more.
My list addressed this challenge, but he subsequently chose to move the goalposts after I detailed 21 fighters and argued that nearly all world heavyweight title fights since 1993 involved at least one fighter weighing 240lbs or more.
So your list doesn’t reflect the original challenge.
Re: Sonny Liston (1963) vs. current HWs ?
Posted: 27 May 2020, 14:37
You listed great fighters that competed 35 years ago or more.gilgamesh wrote: ↑27 May 2020, 14:32I wasn't referring to any challenge. Just making a general point.Enlightened-One wrote: ↑27 May 2020, 14:21
ValMar’s original question related to world heavyweight champions weighing roughly 240lbs or more, whilst also being in the ballpark of 6’4” or more.
My list addressed this challenge, but he subsequently chose to move the goalposts after I detailed 21 fighters and argued that nearly all world heavyweight title fights since 1993 involved at least one fighter weighing 240lbs or more.
So your list doesn’t reflect the original challenge.
In terms of modern-day size standards though, all of them were either rehydrated light heavyweights or rehydrated cruiserweights.
To be honest though, many fighters aren’t recognised as being “great” (not the same as being a Hall-of-Famer) by the masses until at least twenty five years after their retirement.
Re: Sonny Liston (1963) vs. current HWs ?
Posted: 27 May 2020, 14:43
Holyfield, Chris Byrd, David Haye, Roy Jones Jr., and Povetkin have all won titles in the last 20 or 25 years, and they're all under 240.Enlightened-One wrote: ↑27 May 2020, 14:37You listed great fighters that competed 35 years ago or more.
In terms of modern-day size standards though, all of them were either rehydrated light heavyweights or rehydrated cruiserweights.
To be honest though, many fighters aren’t recognised as being “great” (not the same as being a Hall-of-Famer) by the masses until at least twenty five years after their retirement.
Wilder weighed his heaviest in the 2nd Fury fight, and he got his ass handed to him.
Weighing in the 220's or less he made 10 title defenses. Now granted he's very tall and rangy, but still.
Re: Sonny Liston (1963) vs. current HWs ?
Posted: 27 May 2020, 14:44
Yes, you were correct.Enlightened-One wrote: ↑27 May 2020, 14:24You asked a question you didn’t think anyone could answer.ValMar wrote: ↑27 May 2020, 14:07
I don't know anything about you, and I am not interested, but I suppose that I had been boxing fan before you were born.
I can remember Ali-Frazier 1, I was six. Tell me if I am wrong.
I made a mistake, I thought about the great/genuine HW champions. I apologised in the previous post.
I answered it. And you realised my information was accurate.
So you moved the goalposts afterwards, because you couldn’t defend your original train of thought.
Am I correct or not? All I need is a “yes” or “no” answer.
I explained that I made a mistake missing a word "great", I suppose this was obvious.
Again, size is one of decisive factors for success in boxing, but not the only one. If you think the opposite, this is your problem.
As I said, I am not a new boxing fan. Born 1965, remembering 1971. Can you remember Ali-Frazier 1. All I need is a "yes" or "no" answer.
Re: Sonny Liston (1963) vs. current HWs ?
Posted: 27 May 2020, 14:47
There were plenty of big heavyweights in earlier eras but as I have pointed out previously they have been far more successful in recent years than they were in past eras. This could lead a reasonable person to conclude that they are more capable than past big men.
In the 1960s for example as best I can tell no heavyweight over 240 pounds cracked the top 10 and Ernie Terrell was the only heavyweight over 6'4 to enjoy any success at the top level.
In the 1960s for example as best I can tell no heavyweight over 240 pounds cracked the top 10 and Ernie Terrell was the only heavyweight over 6'4 to enjoy any success at the top level.
Re: Sonny Liston (1963) vs. current HWs ?
Posted: 27 May 2020, 14:47
Exactly, there are always exceptions to every rule.gilgamesh wrote: ↑27 May 2020, 14:43Holyfield, Chris Byrd, David Haye, Roy Jones Jr., and Povetkin have all won titles in the last 20 or 25 years, and they're all under 240.Enlightened-One wrote: ↑27 May 2020, 14:37
You listed great fighters that competed 35 years ago or more.
In terms of modern-day size standards though, all of them were either rehydrated light heavyweights or rehydrated cruiserweights.
To be honest though, many fighters aren’t recognised as being “great” (not the same as being a Hall-of-Famer) by the masses until at least twenty five years after their retirement.
Wilder weighed his heaviest in the 2nd Fury fight, and he got his ass handed to him.
Weighing in the 220's or less he made 10 title defenses. Now granted he's very tall and rangy, but still.
And I’m not going to disagree with those exceptions your listed.
But do you at least agree they’re exceptions, because statistically speaking, they are?
Out of curiosity, how familiar are you with Sonny Liston’s opposition, because they were all small guys compared to most of the “small” heavyweights you listed?
Re: Sonny Liston (1963) vs. current HWs ?
Posted: 27 May 2020, 14:50
Sure, but is that not what we're looking for in Boxing and Sports in General?
The Exceptional
The Ones that are capable of something extra
The Exceptional
The Ones that are capable of something extra
Re: Sonny Liston (1963) vs. current HWs ?
Posted: 27 May 2020, 14:51
I can understand your perspective here.
Out of curiosity, how familiar are you with Sonny Liston’s opposition (up to and including 1963), because they were all small guys compared to most of the “small” heavyweights you listed?
Assuming you agree, does that still not matter?
Re: Sonny Liston (1963) vs. current HWs ?
Posted: 27 May 2020, 14:53
Not as familiar with that particular era as others, but I know he fought several of the Top contenders of the time before ever winning the title.Enlightened-One wrote: ↑27 May 2020, 14:51Out of curiosity, how familiar are you with Sonny Liston’s opposition (up to and including 1963), because they were all small guys compared to most of the “small” heavyweights you listed?
Re: Sonny Liston (1963) vs. current HWs ?
Posted: 27 May 2020, 15:16
4 out of 21 on that list would stand a chance at beating Liston, and none of them is current. Fucken lol at Brown, Parker and Martin.Enlightened-One wrote: ↑27 May 2020, 13:32I'd argue that all of these guys weighed roughly 240lbs or more, with the vast majority being 6' 4" or more:
• Anthony Joshua
• Andy Ruiz Jr
• Charles Martin
• Tyson Fury
• Wladimir Klitschko
• Vitali Klitschko
• Lennox Lewis
• George Foreman
• Riddick Bowe
• Samuel Peter
• Oleg Maskaev
• Frank Bruno
• James Douglas
• Ruslan Chagaev
• Lucas Browne
• Nikolay Valuev
• John Ruiz
• Joseph Parker
• Shannon Briggs
Notable mentions: Bermane Stiverne & Hasim Rahman weighed roughly 240lbs (238lbs & 239lbs) for their title bouts.
For sure, one or two might be half an inch or so shorter than 6' 4", but ValMar's criteria was fabricated in his own mind and a centimetre discrepancy doesn't really endorse his argument.
If you review the amount of title bouts since 1993, I'd also argue that the vast majority of the world heavyweight champions and title defences were performed by really big men.
For the record, my point is perfectly valid, the heavyweight title scene has been dominated by tall heavy men since the mid-nineties (i.e. Riddick Bowe, Lennox Lewis, Vitali Klitschko, Wladimir Klitschko, Anthony Joshua, Tyson Fury etc.).
If I listed the amount of heavyweight title fights involving at least one fighter weighing 240lbs or more since 1993, the stats are staggering, because it's nearly all of them.
And I think you're smart enough to realise this.
Re: Sonny Liston (1963) vs. current HWs ?
Posted: 27 May 2020, 15:19
Lol what happened to Fury then bruh
Re: Sonny Liston (1963) vs. current HWs ?
Posted: 27 May 2020, 15:25