BoxRec

Leagues above Carl Froch

Coco wrote: ↑25 Jun 2020, 13:34

Onamastus wrote: ↑25 Jun 2020, 13:17

If you were following boxing at the time you know for a fact it was the Brits who avoided the yanks. It is cast iron and unequivocal.

Hopkins had agreed to fight JC the first time then doubled his demands the day before.
Also Ward, Toney and Jones never left the states during their prime.

I agree Hopkins was erratic. He also ducked rematches with Roy Jones. I'm talking Benn, Eubank and Collins wanting nothing to do with Jones and Toney, and Calzaghe wanting nothing to do with prime Jones even when RJ was willing to come down to 168 and fight in Wales.

If you want to argue any of this, good luck.

PS. Toney did have a world title fight abroad in his prime, not that it matters, he beat tons of top fighters in the US, where the top fighters were in those days.

Eubank did famously announce he wanted both Nunn and Toney both in 1993, saying he wanted to discover who was the very best and considered himself and those two all as equal best(ahead of Benn)..but Bob Arum struck it down suggesting Eubank had too much of an awkward style that would make them look bad on PPV (tvko)-ITV prefight Eubank V L.Holmes

Coco wrote: ↑25 Jun 2020, 13:34

Onamastus wrote: ↑25 Jun 2020, 13:17

If you were following boxing at the time you know for a fact it was the Brits who avoided the yanks. It is cast iron and unequivocal.

Hopkins had agreed to fight JC the first time then doubled his demands the day before.
Also Ward, Toney and Jones never left the states during their prime.

Benn and eubank have both admitted they were happy making big bucks being the big fish in a small pond. A case could easily made that neither was the best in the UK again stage of their careers (both admit to avoiding Graham early on, Watson could stake a claim to being superior in their pomp, Collins towards the end). They we both world class, but basically big domestic draws.

Steveh583 wrote: ↑25 Jun 2020, 17:33

Coco wrote: ↑25 Jun 2020, 13:34

Hopkins had agreed to fight JC the first time then doubled his demands the day before.
Also Ward, Toney and Jones never left the states during their prime.

Benn and eubank have both admitted they were happy making big bucks being the big fish in a small pond. A case could easily made that neither was the best in the UK again stage of their careers (both admit to avoiding Graham early on, Watson could stake a claim to being superior in their pomp, Collins towards the end). They we both world class, but basically big domestic draws.

But then of course Benn did fight Mcllenan, I never saw the other yanks wanting to come over, and they would have made more money in England compared to the states

Coco wrote: ↑25 Jun 2020, 17:43

Steveh583 wrote: ↑25 Jun 2020, 17:33
Benn and eubank have both admitted they were happy making big bucks being the big fish in a small pond. A case could easily made that neither was the best in the UK again stage of their careers (both admit to avoiding Graham early on, Watson could stake a claim to being superior in their pomp, Collins towards the end). They we both world class, but basically big domestic draws.

But then of course Benn did fight Mcllenan, I never saw the other yanks wanting to come over, and they would have made more money in England compared to the states

Nunn was the original opponent put forward for that fight but Nigel didn't want a lefty for less dough.

Benn offered Graham a career-high purse of £100,000 in summer 88. Bomber turned it down

No offence to Graham but he always found a way to lose his bigger fights

Not that it means much, but Collins was very public in saying he wanted Jones after his second Benn victory. Maybe it was all talk at that stage and he wanted to retire on a high, but I never doubted his bravery come fight night.

I'll never feel sure about where Ottke and Ward fit in. I didn't rate either as highly as their records suggest, but then they are unbeaten records with a spread of wins over top contemporaries. Eubank lost to Thompson on paper, though, when in reality their first fight was a serious credit to Eubank. Same as how McCallum was knocking on 40 and three weights above his best when he went the distance with prime Jones.

Remembering the Holyfield fight, it's hard to not imagine that Toney could've been the best. Are there any known reasons why the Jones rematch didn't happen?

Steve Little gotta be up there

Grilling Machine wrote: ↑25 Jun 2020, 19:33 Not that it means much, but Collins was very public in saying he wanted Jones after his second Benn victory. Maybe it was all talk at that stage and he wanted to retire on a high, but I never doubted his bravery come fight night.

I'll never feel sure about where Ottke and Ward fit in. I didn't rate either as highly as their records suggest, but then they are unbeaten records with a spread of wins over top contemporaries. Eubank lost to Thompson on paper, though, when in reality their first fight was a serious credit to Eubank. Same as how McCallum was knocking on 40 and three weights above his best when he went the distance with prime Jones.

Remembering the Holyfield fight, it's hard to not imagine that Toney could've been the best. Are there any known reasons why the Jones rematch didn't happen?

Jones didn't want it

Great post, they were different kettle of fish

Grilling Machine wrote: ↑25 Jun 2020, 19:33 Not that it means much, but Collins was very public in saying he wanted Jones after his second Benn victory. Maybe it was all talk at that stage and he wanted to retire on a high, but I never doubted his bravery come fight night.

I'll never feel sure about where Ottke and Ward fit in. I didn't rate either as highly as their records suggest, but then they are unbeaten records with a spread of wins over top contemporaries. Eubank lost to Thompson on paper, though, when in reality their first fight was a serious credit to Eubank. Same as how McCallum was knocking on 40 and three weights above his best when he went the distance with prime Jones.

Remembering the Holyfield fight, it's hard to not imagine that Toney could've been the best. Are there any known reasons why the Jones rematch didn't happen?

Collins didn't really want Jones. He said he wanted "20 million" (not kidding) to fight Jones. That's the equivalent of saying "I don't want Jones". Jones never made 20m, let alone an opponent of Jones. He got 10m versus John Ruiz.

Collins was ridiculous.

Collins asked for 3mill.

Quote from Roy Jones at a press conf in 1996 after Eubank announced he was out of retirement- 'Chris gets nothing from me. When I was coming up, trying to make a name for myself, he wouldn't give me a shot. Oh but now he's at the end of his career he thinks he can make some money off Roy? I don't think so.'

Eubank was calling for Jones & Toney to come to Abu Dhabi and fight him @ lightheavy

I thought it was Benn who asked for silly money to fight Jones, but then again he was well within his rights to demand big money, not his fault if the money men won't cough up.

Nope, King offered Benn and Jones 25mill apiece. Jones turned it down and HBO counter offered Benn and Jones 10mill apiece

King would've given it all the wrong publicity as a 'revenge mission' $$$

Nobody cared about Collins so much, a side show compared to Nigel Benn

Steveh583 wrote: ↑25 Jun 2020, 17:33

Coco wrote: ↑25 Jun 2020, 13:34

Hopkins had agreed to fight JC the first time then doubled his demands the day before.
Also Ward, Toney and Jones never left the states during their prime.

Benn and eubank have both admitted they were happy making big bucks being the big fish in a small pond. A case could easily made that neither was the best in the UK again stage of their careers (both admit to avoiding Graham early on, Watson could stake a claim to being superior in their pomp, Collins towards the end). They we both world class, but basically big domestic draws.

Funny that because Benn was offered much bigger money to fight Leonard in US than Eubank in UK, and close Eubank expecting to beat him

He also wanted RJJ is the US, whereas RJJ wanted Benn in London -that's what they couldn't agree!

Not sure where you get your quotes

jenko21 wrote: ↑25 Jun 2020, 15:09

Ruthless-RKO wrote: ↑25 Jun 2020, 10:21

How do you know the Yanks didn't avoid the Brits?

I would say it's easy to work out, look at the resumes of the fighters in question.

Uhh, eh? Benn fought DeWitt & Barkley in US, Collins fought Reggie Johnson in the US (while living in Belfast) and Calzaghe fought Hopkins over there

Isaax wrote: ↑26 Jun 2020, 06:44

jenko21 wrote: ↑25 Jun 2020, 15:09

I would say it's easy to work out, look at the resumes of the fighters in question.

Uhh, eh? Benn fought DeWitt & Barkley in US, Collins fought Reggie Johnson in the US (while living in Belfast) and Calzaghe fought Hopkins over there

So that must prove they wanted to fight the toneys, Jones's and hopkins of this world, those lot had bigger fish to fry then eubank, benn and Collins.

jenko21 wrote: ↑26 Jun 2020, 09:09

Isaax wrote: ↑26 Jun 2020, 06:44

Uhh, eh? Benn fought DeWitt & Barkley in US, Collins fought Reggie Johnson in the US (while living in Belfast) and Calzaghe fought Hopkins over there

So that must prove they wanted to fight the toneys, Jones's and hopkins of this world, those lot had bigger fish to fry then eubank, benn and Collins.

If they had bigger fish to fry (5ft5 Bryant Brannon, or Dave Allen for $27,000, or the WBU cruiser belt, etc) then what's your point? They wouldn't fight them you're saying, too much risk for little respect you're saying

Isaax wrote: ↑26 Jun 2020, 05:42Nobody cared about Collins so much, a side show compared to Nigel Benn

The widespread feeling seemed to be that Collins benefitted from lucky timing against Eubank and Benn (it's how I felt at the time), leaving him a lesser star despite his wins. Benn was a good way past his best for sure, but in hindsight we know Calzaghe was an ATG, and that makes those wins over Eubank much more impressive on reflection.

And like Benn, Collins had a US background. He might never have been the very best at his weight, but he mixed in stronger circles than most. Putting him above or below Froch is just preference I think.

Steve fought better fighters than Froch fought. Reggie Johnson, Kalambay and McCallum were as good as it gets in the early 90s

Reggie looked superb against a young menacing Toney, his KD of Toney trumps Roy's later KD of Toney -pure skill. He beat a 99.9% Toney and RJJ looked scared to try to stop a 30% Toney. This was not the slowed down watered version of Reggie Johnson in 1999, remember Johnson turned over in 84 so peaked around 91/92

Kalambay was the master. McCallum a legend who Steve got in with as a substitute after 16 fights and even had MM turning his back & running in the last rounds for the only time ever

I thought Steve beat Reggie AND Kalambay, 115-114 I score both. A true road warrior. He got 10 grand against Kalambay which wasn't even shown on TV, Benn in that same month in that same country of Italy had his much hyped WBC winning fight against a far inferior fighter leading to millions of pounds in no time....

Collins would've been a big star with social media today, but for whatever reason he didn't inspire much of a fanbase. He was treated as a bit of a usurper for beating the more popular Eubank and Benn. Holyfield's star didn't really rise when he beat Tyson, either. Tarver was another.

He was poorly managed in his career pre-FW. He took thousands of Boston/NY-based Irishmen to Vegas in 89 and never fought there again

Should've been marketed as a 'great white hope' figure and not thrown in with McCallum after 16 fights!