Thoughts now on size of HWs compared to other eras?

[Ambling Alp II]

Fury threw over 600 punches against Wallin I believe.

Where is this notion Ali throws 3x the punches that Fury does coming from besides nostalgia?
There seems to be multiple fights where Fury threw more than 60 punches per round. All I can guess is onetimeonly is focusing on the Wilder trilogy and ignoring Fury's other fights.

OK, lets play the punch stat game.

Oh wow, 60 punches a round. Against a guy standing right in front of him. He landed just 179 for the fight. About 15 a round.

In the last Wilder fight, he threw less than 400. In the first wilder fight, he threw less than 400. In the Klitschko fight, he threw less than 400.
He landed less than 100 against Wilder in the first fight and Klitschko in the second.
It averages out to about 7 landed punches a round.

How punches a round is Fury going to be landing against a fast, moving target? Three, four?

[Bodyshot3]

The one thing about Fury is that he does not tie-up like the huge lumps before him or get befuddled.
Admittedly, he does not look honed-athletic (never has) but he's rarely gassed/static and still moving and throwing.

I actually think he'd be fine with some skillful and quick like Chis Byrd or even Haye who tended to be more agressive in bursts and had more pop on his punches. Fury also looks okay with Holyfield for my money.

He can also self-evidently handle other huge guys by simply being the better technical boxer. I think Fury makes a total mess of a Valuev or Shannon Briggs.

Where I think Fury runs into trouble is someone like Vitali or Lennox.
Massive men themselves, not prone to gassing, accurate punchers and (usually) able to defend themselves.

He's kind of their successor anyway and I like the idea of Fury in with Vitali or Lennox.

[gregregegg]

If we use are eyes and our brain, it's a pretty easy conclusion to come to.

I dont see how you can conclude that when nearly Alis entire resume would of been cruisers or even light heavys in this era. Ali is a great, no doubt, mabey the greatest...

But what has Ali done to prove he could beat fury. How do you think he beats fury? whats his stratergy. Not saying Fury is the best ever. I just can not see how Ali is favourite in that matchup, If you can, How?, whats his path to certain victory?

No, his entire career was not against fighters who would be cruisers or light heavyweights today. That simply isn't true. At all.

What has Ali done to prove he could beat Fury? Well he beat great fighters. Fury didn't.
His path to victory? He would move around. With fury's punch rate and Ali's defense, he would seldom hit Ali.
With Ali's speed, accuracy, combinations, a he would have little trouble hitting Fury.

By the mid rounds Fury would be dead tired.

Current cruisers are about 210-215lbs and currrnt light heavies are nearly 190. Look at Ali’s resume… not many over 215. even big George was a tiny heavyweight by today’s standards.,


Also boxing on the outside is very ambitious vs a guy 5 inches taller and long as fornicate. Ali was long for his era, so outside worked well. Does he have any examples of boxing someone longer than him from the outside?

[Controversial]

The one thing about Fury is that he does not tie-up like the huge lumps before him or get befuddled.
Admittedly, he does not look honed-athletic (never has) but he's rarely gassed/static and still moving and throwing.

Exactly, he doesn't freeze, he knows how to tie someone up plus he can take a helluva punch. He can also change styles from offensive to defensive effortlessly, something not many HWs can do.

[Ambling Alp II]

I dont see how you can conclude that when nearly Alis entire resume would of been cruisers or even light heavys in this era. Ali is a great, no doubt, mabey the greatest...

But what has Ali done to prove he could beat fury. How do you think he beats fury? whats his stratergy. Not saying Fury is the best ever. I just can not see how Ali is favourite in that matchup, If you can, How?, whats his path to certain victory?

No, his entire career was not against fighters who would be cruisers or light heavyweights today. That simply isn't true. At all.

What has Ali done to prove he could beat Fury? Well he beat great fighters. Fury didn't.
His path to victory? He would move around. With fury's punch rate and Ali's defense, he would seldom hit Ali.
With Ali's speed, accuracy, combinations, a he would have little trouble hitting Fury.

By the mid rounds Fury would be dead tired.

Current cruisers are about 210-215lbs and currrnt light heavies are nearly 190. Look at Ali’s resume… not many over 215. even big George was a tiny heavyweight by today’s standards.,

This thread is about size of heavyweights Also boxing on the outside is very ambitious vs a guy 5 inches taller and long as fornicate. Ali was long for his era, so outside worked well. Does he have any examples of boxing someone longer than him from the outside?

Not many over 215. Yes Foreman would have been small had he fought today. That is sort of the point. Many of Todays heavyweights are too big.


The thread is about small to medium heavyweights vs large heavyweights of today. To say that it an advantage to be bigger because they are bigger really isn't an argument.

Earnie Shavers weighed around 210. There is no way in the world he would be fighting at cruiserweight. Or Lyle. Or Liston. Or Norton. Or Foreman. Or Bugner. Or Frazier. Or Terrell. etc. etc. etc.

Terrell was taller than Ali. So was Joe Bugner. Bob Foster. Since ability doesn't matter, so was Chuck Wepner. Several were about the same.

How many fighters has Fury fought that are remotely as hard to hit as a prime Ali? How many had remotely as close to Ali's hand speed? None. Nobody. Ali would have no trouble landing a quick combination against Fury before Fury could respond. Over and over and over.

How is Fury going to win when he doesn't land nearly enough?

[Ambling Alp II]

The one thing about Fury is that he does not tie-up like the huge lumps before him or get befuddled.
Admittedly, he does not look honed-athletic (never has) but he's rarely gassed/static and still moving and throwing.

Exactly, he doesn't freeze, he knows how to tie someone up plus he can take a helluva punch. He can also change styles from offensive to defensive effortlessly, something not many HWs can do.

Fury knows how to tie someone up? That isn't going to win the fight for him.
Takes a helluva a punch. Well the only fighter he has fought that can punch dropped him, what four times?
Fury would be hit more more often than he ever he did in his career. He going to land less than he ever has in his career. He can't win by knockout. He can't win a decision.

[DrDuke]

How many fighters has Fury fought that are remotely as hard to hit as a prime Ali? How many had remotely as close to Ali's hand speed? None. Nobody. Ali would have no trouble landing a quick combination against Fury before Fury could respond. Over and over and over.

How is Fury going to win when he doesn't land nearly enough?

Better go to school instead of watching Muhammad Ali Amazing Speed Highlights from youtube all day long, boi.

[Controversial]

There is a guy currently fighting at cruiserweight called Okolie who is as big as Riddick Bowe.

Okolie has already said he will move to HW as he struggles dieting to make the CW limit, he's 6'5" so could easily pack on weight.

[Controversial]

The one thing about Fury is that he does not tie-up like the huge lumps before him or get befuddled.
Admittedly, he does not look honed-athletic (never has) but he's rarely gassed/static and still moving and throwing.

Exactly, he doesn't freeze, he knows how to tie someone up plus he can take a helluva punch. He can also change styles from offensive to defensive effortlessly, something not many HWs can do.

Fury knows how to tie someone up? That isn't going to win the fight for him.
Takes a helluva a punch. Well the only fighter he has fought that can punch dropped him, what four times?
Fury would be hit more more often than he ever he did in his career. He going to land less than he ever has in his career. He can't win by knockout. He can't win a decision.

A very simplistic way of viewing it. Ali was sent flying by Cooper who said he was closer to the LHW limit when they fought. Wilder punches harder than Cooper. Ali was the larger or heavier man in most of the fights from 1964-67, that makes a difference.

[Ambling Alp II]

Yes that is simplistic.

A young Ali got caught with a good shot and was down for three seconds. He got up immediately and stopped his opponent in the next round.
Toyed with him in the rematch when he had more experience.
Ali fought many bigger and harder hitting fighters like Liston, Lyle, Foreman etc. who were unable to hurt him or knock him down.

Tyson Fury got knocked down by a guy weighing 210 pounds who couldn't fight his way out of a paper bag.

[Controversial]

Ali wasn't in his prime yet. He was down for three seconds. got up and stopped his opponent in the next round.
Destroyed him in the rematch when he had more experience.
Ali fought bigger and harder hitting fighters like Liston, Lyle, Foreman etc who never knocked him down.

So Ali hit his prime in his very next fight after Cooper? Had that punch landed 60 seconds earlier I wouldn't be surprised if Cooper stopped him. Plus Ali couldn't drop Cooper either, it was a cut eye ending. However Ali wouldn't be stopping Fury and Fury wouldn't be stopping Ali, it's a moot point. One thing is for sure Fury wouldn't follow Ali around like Liston did, or punch himself out like Foreman did.

[Ambling Alp II]

He got up immediately from the knockdown. He was fine, and was not going to be stopped. He completely dominated the fight before that point and the next round. He completely dominated Cooper in the rematch three years later.
It was only his 19th fight and he was only 21 years old. He learned from the experience.

And Fury's getting knockdown by the great Steve Cunningham?

Ali certainly could have stopped Fury. He would have hit him over and over. More than Fury would have been hit much more than any fight of his career. Maybe it goes the distance, maybe not. But he would have won and it would have been convincingly.

[Controversial]

He got up immediately from the knockdown. He was fine, and was not going to be stopped. He completely dominated the fight before that point and the next round. He completely dominated Cooper in the rematch three years later.
It was only his 19th fight and he was only 21 years old. He learned from the experience.

And Fury's getting knockdown by the great Steve Cunningham?

Ali certainly could have stopped Fury. He would have hit him over and over. More than Fury would have been hit much more than any fight of his career. Maybe it goes the distance, maybe not. But he would have won and it would have been convincingly.

He was not fine, they used smelling salts to bring him around and had to push him back down on the stool as he tried to stand as he didn't know where he was. Ali had a great chin, no one is arguing he doesn't. A sign of a good chin is getting up again.

[Ambling Alp II]

Not exactly what happened, but whatever.
If you agree that Ali had a great chin, and think getting up from a knockdown is a sign of a good chin, then why are we talking about this?

Ali would have little trouble hitting Fury.
Fury isn't going to win landing just a few punches a round.

Fury can't stop Ali. Fury can't win a decision. He would lose a one-sided fight. Best case scenario is he somehow lasts the distance. Hard to believe that would happened in a fast paced 15 round fight where he is eating leather. Maybe he could last 12. This is not a hard fight to predict a winner.

[Cojimar 1946]

Realistically I think Tyson Fury's best wins are probably at least on par with the best guys Tyson and Lewis beat though he obviously lacks their resume depth. Lewis's best wins are probably a badly faded Holyfield and Vitali Klitschko for example.
So it seems a tad odd to dismiss Tyson Fury's chances against Ali given Lewis is often picked to beat Ali these days.

Moreover, the focus on work rate seems odd given Fury shows comparable work rate to Lewis in some of his fights. I think he has actually thrown more punches in a 12 round fight than Lewis or Tyson ever did like vs Kevin Johnson where I counted him throwing over 700 punches.

[Cojimar 1946]

As far as Liston, Lyle, Norton, Foreman making cruiserweight I don't see why they couldn't. Fighters in lower weight divisions frequently enter the ring 15-20 pounds heavier than what they weighed in at so someone who fights at 215-220 shouldn't have any trouble fighting at cruiserweight. I doubt they entered the ring any heavier than some of todays cruiserweights given the fight-time weight gains we see in lower divisions.

[margaret thatcher]

norton for sure could've made cruiser, he was 205 for one of the ali fights without having to make a weight limit. usyk at the same height was about 210 in the ring vs gassiev at cruiser

cutting 5 pounds at 205 is nothing at all

though, whether a guy who could make cruiser would actually choose to fight there rather than heavy is another issue

[oogiebe]

He got up immediately from the knockdown. He was fine, and was not going to be stopped. He completely dominated the fight before that point and the next round. He completely dominated Cooper in the rematch three years later.
It was only his 19th fight and he was only 21 years old. He learned from the experience.

And Fury's getting knockdown by the great Steve Cunningham?

Ali certainly could have stopped Fury. He would have hit him over and over. More than Fury would have been hit much more than any fight of his career. Maybe it goes the distance, maybe not. But he would have won and it would have been convincingly.

He was not fine, they used smelling salts to bring him around and had to push him back down on the stool as he tried to stand as he didn't know where he was. Ali had a great chin, no one is arguing he doesn't. A sign of a good chin is getting up again.

He was absolutely NOT fine. You can see him in the corner when he comes to mouthing "is it over?"

[DrDuke]

And Fury's getting knockdown by the great Steve Cunningham?

This clown tries to make Ali's prime shorter time after time, but uses an argument against Fury with a fight, when Fury definitely wasn't fully developed.

[margaret thatcher]

alp uses whatever criteria suits him at that minute, remember that toney ranks above usyk as a cruiser, because toney-jirov (the only top 20 cruiser james ever beat) was a rocking fun fight! ya arturo gatt atg

[oogiebe]

alp uses whatever criteria suits him at that minute, remember that toney ranks above usyk as a cruiser, because toney-jirov (the only top 20 cruiser james ever beat) was a rocking fun fight! ya arturo gatt atg

WHat??!!

[margaret thatcher]

ya, he ranks toney 'a little higher' as a cruiser than usyk, because damn jirov-toney was sockem bop em fun! hell james only beat 1 top 20 cruiser in his life, but f@cking hell that fight rocked!

he'll bend the criteria to be whatever fits his preference. he's all over the place

as above, he has constantly gone on about cunningham dropping fury, in this and many other threads, but then is quick to discount anything that happened outside of the oldies primes, which he conveniently seems to make shorter and shorter. just like none of slick clevland williams 25 knockdowns count

and hell, i said i'd go with ali over fury, but lol at some of this stuff

[DrDuke]

alp uses whatever criteria suits him at that minute, remember that toney ranks above usyk as a cruiser, because toney-jirov (the only top 20 cruiser james ever beat) was a rocking fun fight! ya arturo gatt atg

Yeah. Here again, he tells how Ali was great against Cooper except a one round of a knockdown, while he always points at 4 KDs of Fury vs Wilder in the trilogy, where Fury won about 25 rounds of 30. A great joke.

[Controversial]

Not exactly what happened, but whatever.
If you agree that Ali had a great chin, and think getting up from a knockdown is a sign of a good chin, then why are we talking about this?

Ali would have little trouble hitting Fury.
Fury isn't going to win landing just a few punches a round.

Fury can't stop Ali. Fury can't win a decision. He would lose a one-sided fight. Best case scenario is he somehow lasts the distance. Hard to believe that would happened in a fast paced 15 round fight where he is eating leather. Maybe he could last 12. This is not a hard fight to predict a winner.

That is what happened with Ali, watch his corner using smelling salts on him and watch him try to stand up and be pushed down again.

I was responding to your post that said Fury was dropped 4 times by the one big puncher he fought. Yes he was but he got up and beat Wilder. All I said in response was Ali was flattened and badly hurt by a 180lb fighter and Wilder punched a lot harder than Cooper. Any fighter can be dropped, especially if standing square on but that's a bad balance issue. You rate Lennox as a better HW, he was knocked out twice, in his prime. It can happen.

You also deleted the part where you said Ali wasn't in his prime, he fought Cooper and then Liston next. Punch stats are irrelevant, Fury fought a chess match against Klitschko. How many punches did Ali throw against Foreman, same argument.

[evrenb]

Wasn't Fury dropped by the hard punching 16-0 - 5kos Neven Pajkic?