BoxRec

Not a bad a selection. Thompson is out of his depth though he'll struggle. And I really dont think Robinson is up to it at the moment in all honesty, other than those two a good side.

Lewis Moody? A little shocked about that one, he won't last the match.

stujones wrote:Lewis Moody? A little shocked about that one, he won't last the match.

Eh? You'll have to expand on that one.

I'll look forward to seeing him sprinting off fromt he kick-offs and winning the ball straight back for the Lions (something nobody can do)

He hasn't had much game time this tour due to injuries, the All Blacks will exploit it and make sure he won't last.

Are you really suggesting the ABs would set out to injure someone...


Moody will be on with order to bust his nuts for 50 minutes before Williams comes on.


I would love to spend Saturday morning watching Henson score the winner on telly while I'm nuts deep in Charlotte Church.

Would have added Cussiter, Hodgeson and Ollie Smith to the bench instead of Dawson, Jones and Horgan. Lewis Moody is a good choice only reservation is that he concedes a lot of penaltys, but he is always harrassing opposing players and he may get at Daniel Carter. Again the big problem will be weather we can retain possesion with the line outs, don't think that is Thompsons strong area, although he does add a lot in open play. Henson and Thomas add balance to the team at center and am glad that wilko is back at fly half. Not to many complaints about this team, hope they perform.

its the selcetion that should have happend for the first test.

if its dry blacks by 30 though.

just cant see us living with them though ill be cheering the boys on bloody mary in hand.


off to a chArity cricket day 2m. Should be fun, last time i went i got on it with tuffers and quaffed a few with goughie.

its butch's testimonial so am sure he is there, Gatting/Wasim and most the middlesex players usually play as well.


my claim to fame spanking guss fraser for 18 off one over.

it is six a side though

Hats off to the All Blacks. As a rugby fan awesome, as a lions fan, gutted. Definate improvement from last saturday, but i think if the lions also included the Aussies, Springboks and the French, we still would have struggled to beat them on that performance. Oh well 4 more years.

Agreed that was boys against men, that Dan Carter is something special

We should have put the pressure on soon after scoring that 1st try.

Oh, and its 12 years till next NZ tour :(

Carter is the best (or 2nd best) outside half I have ever seen without the use of video's.

Only Jonathon Davies compares from my life time.

Lions were improved, but simply not good enough as I predicted from start. Here is how I would rate the Lions.

1 - Jenkins - 7 - Solid Game, played well throughout the tour
2 - Thompson - 8 - Excellent game, my Lions man of the match - very very good.
3 - White - 6 - Solid in the Scrums
4 - O Connell - 5 - Solid in Lineout a little over enthusiastic
5 - O Callaghan - 5- Solid but a little quiet
6 - Easterby - 7 - Very good, shown he is world class this tour
7 - Moody - 8- Big game from Moody, didn't think he would last the match but did very well.
8 - Ryan Jones - 6 - Always sharp but more subdued than last week.
9 - Dwayne Peel - 7- Overshadowed by Kellegher but a strong game nevertheless.
10 - Johnny Wilkinson - 4 - Didn't get the backline moving.
11 - Shane Williams - 3 - Very poor in defence, almost to embarrising Wales will have learned something the next time we play the blacks.
12 - Gavin Henson - 4- Overated player, very quite, little ball but didn't look for it either.
13 - Gareth Thomas - 6 - Great start - played okay but looked a little sluggish at time.
14 - Robinson - 7- Very solid game, a return to some decent form.
15 - Lewsey - 8- Best back, him and Peel have been fighting for that award since the start of the tour.

Agree with most of them but Robinson, dont see how you could say he had a very solid game, he never managed to get his hands on the ball in attack and I'd give him a 5.

We got beaten by an awesome side on Saturday. Mate of mine spoke to his dad, Welsh feller who knows his rugby, and he said he doesn't think any side he'd ever seen could have beaten the ABs on that performance.

I'd like to hear Woodward admit that. Either way, he's not pocketing quite as much on the after-dinner circuit now...

There were bright spots. Thought the back row played well, Thompson had his best game for years, Jenkins was a force, Peel and Thomas were the backs who stood out for me, but realistically we didn't look comfortable as a back unit and didn't have the imagination and understanding.

What was most pleasing though was the evdient passion they played with, especially after a slightly underrcooked showing last week.

Ah well, here's hoping the Kiwis stick 60 points on the Aussies and Saffers.

Shane Williams was the worst player on the pitch. Absolutely woeful.

Just goes to show, scoring 5 tires against part-timers Manawatu is one thing... but Test team selection requires something else. Henson hid from the game out on the wing for the most part after allowing the first NZ try.

Easterby, Thompson, Lewsey, & Moody did well. The rest weren't up to it.

That said, the selection didn't really matter. Something I have already said before the game! The All Blacks are too good a side.

stujones wrote:Carter is the best (or 2nd best) outside half I have ever seen without the use of video's.

Only Jonathon Davies compares from my life time.

Lions were improved, but simply not good enough as I predicted from start. Here is how I would rate the Lions.

1 - Jenkins - 7 - Solid Game, played well throughout the tour
2 - Thompson - 8 - Excellent game, my Lions man of the match - very very good.
3 - White - 6 - Solid in the Scrums
4 - O Connell - 5 - Solid in Lineout a little over enthusiastic
5 - O Callaghan - 5- Solid but a little quiet
6 - Easterby - 7 - Very good, shown he is world class this tour
7 - Moody - 8- Big game from Moody, didn't think he would last the match but did very well.
8 - Ryan Jones - 6 - Always sharp but more subdued than last week.
9 - Dwayne Peel - 7- Overshadowed by Kellegher but a strong game nevertheless.
10 - Johnny Wilkinson - 4 - Didn't get the backline moving.
11 - Shane Williams - 3 - Very poor in defence, almost to embarrising Wales will have learned something the next time we play the blacks.
12 - Gavin Henson - 4- Overated player, very quite, little ball but didn't look for it either.
13 - Gareth Thomas - 6 - Great start - played okay but looked a little sluggish at time.
14 - Robinson - 7- Very solid game, a return to some decent form.
15 - Lewsey - 8- Best back, him and Peel have been fighting for that award since the start of the tour.

I'd say both Andrew Merthans and Michael Lynah were as good as Jonathan Davies ever was.

Agree with your player assessment almost entirely.

quite Michael lynagh is the most all rounded fly half ever.

not much more to add really, other than williams lack of physicality really embarrassed him at that level.

Carter was awesome but lets not get carried away here, its all too often said "great" players, but great players go on to do it for year after year .

Look what has a happened to Johnny now. Albeit it through injury but it still will affect the way he is viewed in future years.

At least we gave it a go this week which wa spleasing but you just had that feeling "its a matter of time" b4 the AB's cut loose.

Taking nothing away fomr the Welsh grandslam achievments but it does reflect the six nations was wofeully weak this year.

Folk do like to jump the gun a bit, NZ sure look an awesome force but the words "best team ever" are bieng bandied around by the press and some folk i speak to.

Ill reserve judgment until we see how they go in Stadium Australia, and at altitude vs the Boks that is a better yardstick than agiainst the lions.

its also about time the won the world cup, it will be 20 years since they won, a poor return for a side that dominates so often in "friendlies"

Again im not taking anything away form the kiwis., they have bene outstanding but dont they do this every 4 years, look awesome going into the world cup, then bang, they meet the aussies or the french and its game over.

I wouldnt get too carried away, at the end of the day they have been better than i thought they would be, but again great teams dominate for couple of years, not two games.

Wasnt the side that lomu played in supposed to be the best ever, just someone forgot to tell Francois Pienarr, James Small and co......to say the blacks have such a great international record they win tournaments very scarcely.

Faves last year for the tri nations last year, faves for the world cup in 2003.

didnt win either. Great perfromance but lets just hold back the superlatives for a year or two.

Back to wilko i hope he retires, if he was a boxer we would be saying he has taken too many for his own good.

I also think England needs to move on and wilko being around may well have a detrimental effect, not through his own doing, but just his presence.

Johnny is an accident waiting to happen imo and the repetetive injries must be taking their toll.
Go commentate Johnny, you still have been a fine player but listen to your body.

J wrote: Wasnt the side that lomu played in supposed to be the best ever, just someone forgot to tell Francois Pienarr, James Small and co......to say the blacks have such a great international record they win tournaments very scarcely.

I know what your saying here, but the All Blacks were incredibly unlucky not to win that game. Remember how Mehrtens kick just drifted agonizingly wide in the final moments of the game, before it went to overtime and Stransky did the business. It was a close close game.

Furthermore, to this day sections of New Zealand rugby claim some of their players suffered "mysterious" food poisoning just before the final. Allegedly half that side were playing with the shits (and therefore dehydration). Not saying that MUST be true... but it was talked about a lot afterwards.

Couple all the above with home advantage, and the South Africans were a tad jammy (in my opinion)

Loftgroov wrote:

J wrote: Wasnt the side that lomu played in supposed to be the best ever, just someone forgot to tell Francois Pienarr, James Small and co......to say the blacks have such a great international record they win tournaments very scarcely.

Furthermore, to this day sections of New Zealand rugby claim some of their players suffered "mysterious" food poisoning just before the final. Allegedly half that side were playing with the shits (and therefore dehydration). Not saying that MUST be true... but it was talked about a lot afterwards.

Couple all the above with home advantage, and the South Africans were a tad jammy (in my opinion).

Yep, not everything entirely above board there. I know a couple of ex-All Blacks and they did all get food poisoning, except for a few guys who missed a particular meal in the hotel. Very, very dodgy.


J, I appreciate your point about the 'greatness' thing but the NZ side that played at the weekend has to be up there in the pantheon - I'm sure they can repeat it but even if they don't then by that show alone they're up there. That second try still makes me shake my head. I have the same issue with Tua and Ibeabuchi - I think they met on a night when either of them could have given Ali, Louis, Tyson, Lewis, etc a great match. Unfortunately, the match ruined Tua and Ibeabuchi wasn't far behind.

Plenty to work on for the British Isles - not least the fact that we're playing twice as many games as the NZers, that tired and over-played players revert to formula, that playing to forumla is much easier to defend against, alongside the many, many practical lessons to be learned from this trip.

agreed mate, but fact is the history books dont show that. they show ZA won. and thats all that matters.

This i remember was suppsed to be the best team ever assembled, if that was the case the game shouldnt have even been close, if you see what i mean. The fact was they had one tactic get the ball to Lomu, and when the saffies put 2 men on him and snaffled him out the game they had become so reliant on the big man, there was no plan B. They lost the game due to their own lack of adaptabilty. This side seem to have strengths all ove the place, but the words "great" should be reserved for sides that string together more than two class performances.

they may well go on and win everything and beocme a great side, and then i'll be advocating it as well, i just think its a bit knee jerk to be waxing lyrical about this team being a "great team".

"great" is an overused word, like for example "cool".

Steve McQueen was cool. Your new mobile phone is not "cool", its a f*cking mobile phone. But one says so anyway.

This NZ team isn't great, yet. They have the potential to be great primarily because 1 through 15 they look absiolutely solid, and the replacements available on the bench are invariably just as good.

Mils Muliiena or Leon McDonald at full-back? What a headache to have...

I could have coached the All Blacks to beat the Lions this test series, and that's not me being a knob. The assets that would be at my disposal are simply awesome and far better than the opposition.

I feel quite sorry for Woodward. Being an English coach he was always going to kop a load of flak, primarily from the celtic nations, and I think in the back of his mind he knew after the first test the Lions were bollocksed against this lot. Must be a harsh position to be in. What can you do?

Must be like being Henman's coach and trying to get him to beat Federer. You're fu*ked before you even start.

Can we settle on 'great performance', and by great I do mean one of the all-time best.

For one match.

Please.

I won money on SA winning the 95 final. Not trying to brag but the 'give it the big lad' tactic was obvious and it was a. hundreds of miles away from the way NZers would normally want to play and b. playing right into the hands of the Saffers, who like a bit of rough and tumble. Teichmann, Venter and Andrews were just licensed to run out to the wing and stuff him as soon as the set piece was over.


I'd love to coach Tim Henman. I'd get him straight down a boxing gym, give him a sense of what hard work is, and it'd teach him not to bend his puffy little wrists. I was so pleased when he got knocked out of Wimbledon. Much as I think his fans are idiots for putting so much faith in a shy, camp 7-year-old, I dislike him for winding the nation up every year.

just because you are a fellow Henman hater, YEAH IT WAS A GREAT PERFORMANCE

Jonathon Davies, IMO (and the opinion of many people I know) is simply the GREATEST outside half we (Wales) have ever produced. He went to league at I think 26 years of age (if not younger). If you read his autobiography it is clear that he was practically forced into the decision. He personally had a great tour of New Zealand in 1988 but the triple crown winning side had a disaster - the press went ballistic and the coach changed the side practically completely in 1989. Jonathon was so chopped around so much from dropped to captain backed to dropped when really we should have kept the whole team together.

He was much better attacking force than Lynagh and Merhtins (I do rate both very highly). He was also a damn fine place kicker but we had possibly the best place kicker of all time at the same time (Paul Thorburn).

He will never get rated ahead of Bennett and Barry John cause he played his prime years in the 13 man code and never was a lion but even when he returned to the fold in 1997 he was still class, had a tremendous performance vs England that year and was again shafted by his ommision behind Arwel Thomas. He only game back to play for Wales and when he realised that he wasn't going to be a regular he retired. He said when he returned he wanted to be involved in the 1999 World cup, such a shame he wasn't.

Michael Lynagh and Andrew Merthins were both fine players and offered more in terms of creativity than the likes of Jenkins, Fox and Johnny Wilkinson - but the only other player I have seen with that good old fashioned flair apart from Davies, Carter and Carlos Spencer (who is a little bit hot and cold) was Mark Ella the outside half before Lynagh.

If Ella hadn't have retired in 1984 (at the age of 25) I don't know how many caps Lynagh would have had.

I WAS LUCKY ENOUGH TO SEE THE GREAT MARK ELLA ON TOUR BEFORE HE RETIRED VS BRISTOL WHEN I WAS A YOUNG LAD.


lynagh if you cast your mind back was being selected but as a centre and was very young at this age. Bit like they play Giteau outside Larkham.

I dont disagree there Stu, but Lynagh is the best all round fly half ive ever seen. As in you way up the place kicking, punting, vision, attacking and defensive ability as well as all round generalship. All of these things together, he wasnyt the best at any one of them but he wasnt far off at all of them if you see where Im coming from.

Ella was probably the best attacking fly half ive ever seen up there would be Jon D no doubt. he was electric.

Im not old enough to remember the likes of John and Bennett Im afraid.
and im english so im pleased about that

What about Thomas Castanaige for flair?

Remember what he did during the game that was France 50 - 0 Wales?

Hmmm… I wouldn’t personally talk about Wilkinson and Jenkins in the same breath. Jenkins was a brilliant goal-kicker (one of the best ever) but was often only in the Wales (and indeed 97’ Lions team – playing at 15) for that reason. He comes nowhere near the likes of Wilkinson for skill, vision, leadership, tackling and distribution.

Davies was top quality, no question. He was a star. Your post reads almost in defence of him, but I don’t think anyone is questioning how good he was. Personally though to be regarded a great player I think you also have to have done it at the VERY highest level, and I appreciate it’s not Davies fault he never got the chance to do so.

Lynah, Wilkinson, and Mehrtens have played in world cup finals. The former two being instrumental in winning them. That’s what people remember.

Ella was a top quality player, no question.

Back in that era, imagine if Mal Meninga had switched codes and played for the Wallabies!

Possibly the best player of all time, from either code. Well him or Michael Jones the Kiwi flanker anyway.