BoxRec

IrishRufusMurphy wrote:Pundit....is it just me or are you the biggest Marciano basher here?

No.

After I announced Marciano won over Louis you have made three different threads bashing Marciano...get a grip, it's all in fun.

If opened made ONE thread with an interesting Archie Moore quote that I stumbled over yesterday. Is this "bashing"?

On Marciano I've written repeatedly that I rank him around #10 all-time, which is certainly not bashing. I can see (although I disagree) why people who have him as high as #5, and with clutching teeth I can even digest a #3 rating.

But when someone writes Marciano was as good as or even better than Louis or Ali, I can only shake my head.

Cheers, P

Yes, u did make the Moore thread...but you also made Louis vs Ali...right after I said the computer chose Marciano over Louis (and mind you I said it wasn't an easy victory all three were close)...so just shows me you disagree, and that is ok---but just because my tournament just happened to end with Ali vs Marciano, doesn't mean you can just totally disregard Marciano and say "He has no chance against Louis", when guys like Tony Galento and Arturo Godoy gave Louis extreme difficulty.

IrishRufusMurphy wrote:Yes, u did make the Moore thread...but you also made Louis vs Ali...right after I said the computer chose Marciano over Louis (and mind you I said it wasn't an easy victory all three were close)...so just shows me you disagree, and that is ok---but just because my tournament just happened to end with Ali vs Marciano, doesn't mean you can just totally disregard Marciano and say "He has no chance against Louis", when guys like Tony Galento and Arturo Godoy gave Louis extreme difficulty.

I mean a prime, focused, well-prepared, in-shape Louis of course. I do indeed believe that few heavyweights in history would have stood a good chance agasint this fighter, and this includes Marciano.

So you're saying the Louis who fought Galento and Godoy wasn't in his prime? Considering those two men gave Louis great difficulty, it's absurd to say Marciano in his prime would have no chance of winning, like you're saying right now.

IrishRufusMurphy wrote:So you're saying the Louis who fought Galento and Godoy wasn't in his prime? Considering those two men gave Louis great difficulty, it's absurd to say Marciano in his prime would have no chance of winning, like you're saying right now.

He wasn't focused and well-prepared. Or do you want to say this was the same Louis who stepped in the ring 1938 with Max Schmeling?

Louis said he never hated a man more than Two Ton Tony...he was out to destroy Galento, so if you ever wanna see Louis pissed off, check the fight out, and as superb a fighting machine he was---I am sure it truly surprised alot of people that Galento hurt Louis.

The undeniable fact is Louis held his title for 11yrs (4yrs he was in the Army) and made 25 title defenses, I say everything before the Army was purely prime Joe Louis---though I will say the Schmeling fight was his greatest win.

But when someone writes Marciano was as good as or even better than Louis or Ali, I can only shake my head.

but once again pundit, NO ONE SAYS THIS.

i rank marciano # 5

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:

But when someone writes Marciano was as good as or even better than Louis or Ali, I can only shake my head.

but once again pundit, NO ONE SAYS THIS.

i rank marciano # 5

For once I didn't mean you... But Crease ranks Marciano #1, and in Murphy's computer prime Marciano just beat prime Louis. There are others.

Cheers, P

I personally rank Marciano inside the top 5...but I won't say he could beat anybody, cus Marciano's style was beatable, but his odd-style and deceptive defense and power made him an extremly tough opponent.

Louis had a few weaknesses but he never faced an opponent great enough whose strengths were Louis' weaknesses---Louis couldn't fight backing up, he had a questionable chin, but his defense and offense made up the difference.

All I am pointing out is if Tony Galento, who was a man who brought the fight to his opponents, with as little skill as he had, with his power that wasn't as great as Marciano's could hurt Joe Louis and drop him---and that Arturo Godoy fought from a crouch, though not as good as Marciano could, and gave Louis problems---and mind you, this was Louis in his prime years, it is absurd and very biased to say that Marciano, no matter how you rank him, would have no chance against Louis.

Even Louis said that he did not think even at his best he could have beaten Marciano, and though this can be argued, I'll take Louis' word for it, cus who would know better than Joe Louis?

I rank Joe Louis at #1, only for the fact he did more with the title than any other man, in any division---though myself his opposition was weak by and large, with exception to the former and future champions that he had fought.

Jack Dempsey I rank at #2, because even though there have been others with a similar style who have won titles, nobody was better as a swarmer than Dempsey; but even Dempsey himself said he believed Marciano was the hardest hitting HW champion.

#3 I have Muhammad Ali- was the fastest yes, but lacked HW power; proved he could take a punch when he came back in the 70's, the best era in Heavyweight history. Ali often said he could not imagine what Marciano in his prime must have been like.

#4 Rocky Marciano; 49-0 43 knockouts, beat the best available, over came a late start, short reach, crude skills, to defeat the best stylists of his era. What more could you ask from a fighter, and still 50yrs later nobody has still beaten his 49-0 record.

#5 Jack Johnson.

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So, the top three men I listed over Marciano all said in one way or another that Marciano was a very tough and great fighter; Dempsey said he punched the hardest, Louis said he never thought he could ever beat him, Ali said he couldn't imagine facing a prime Marciano.

I can't say that Marciano would have beaten any of these men, but it's a disgrace that people just wipe Marciano under the carpet like he was just some bum off the street. He would have given ANY champion a tough time, and would have beaten a majority of those men---myself the only man I can't forsee Marciano ever beating is George Foreman.

Alot of people point out that Ali would have beaten Marciano due to the Foreman fight, but I don't care what anyone says, Ali didn't beat Foreman, George Foreman beat George Foreman---Ali just managed to be tough enough until Foreman was completely tired and had nothing left.

Foreman fought angry...and I don't think Ali's tactics would have really bothered Marciano, Marciano never lost his cool, was always focused and never tired---Foreman's weaknesses were Marciano's strengths.

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SO far it's 1-1 on the Marciano vs Ali SUPERFIGHT 2

Note- In the original computer fight between the two men, up until the KO the bout was 114-114 dead even as judged by the computer---Marciano badly cut over his eyes and nose, Ali slowing down from the body shots and visibly weary from the earlier knockdown's he suffered---Marciano himself was knocked down once.

Even Louis said that he did not think even at his best he could have beaten Marciano, and though this can be argued, I'll take Louis' word for it, cus who would know better than Joe Louis?

So Louis is on record saying he himself, at his peak, couldn't have beaten Marciano?

Interesting. Do you have the source for that?

So Louis is on record saying he himself, at his peak, couldn't have beaten Marciano?

Interesting. Do you have the source for that?

In the May, 1990 issue of Boxing Illustrated, Joe Louis was quoted as saying, "very few people knew this, but I had a weakness, a bad weakness. I didn't like to be crowded. And that was Marciano's thing. He always crowded. I knew I could never beat Rocky."


here u go collins. i disagree with joe louis. i think louis at his peak would have knocked out rocky. louis early in his career had trouble with crowders like adolph wiater and others, but blackburn taught louis how to deal with crowders. blackburn told louis "you have to catch them under the arms, spin em around, and bang him on the jaw." by 1942 louis was great at dealing with them. louis rematch domination of the very good arturo godoy should go to you wut he could do to a crowder.




seamus, no one is a bigger fan of rocky than me. but there are incredibly bias rocky fans who rate him higher than i do and pick him over the likes of louis and ali.

btw, seamus. saying ali would beat marciano "13 rounds to 2" is far more ridiculous than saying marciano would beat ali. chuvalo was able to win 2 rounds vs ali for crying out loud!


it would be close competitive fight.


ali 15 unanimous 9 rounds to 6

2-1 Ali in the MARCIANO vs ALI SUPERFIGHT 2

IrishRufusMurphy wrote:Very interesting and very much heated discussions on Marciano's opponents, but this has always been a long running debate, even when Marciano was in his championship years....so we're going to put that behind for a quick second and focus on the tournament.

So far it has been 7-0 for Ali against Larry Holmes...

So far it has been 4-3 for Louis against Rocky Marciano...

Ali will move on into the final round...Marciano and Louis will be determined by the computer! 8) will give those results in a quick bit.

This is hilarious. Louis gets more votes than your guy Marciano, so you ignore the votes and go the computer, and surprise- Marciano wins!

irishmurhpy, if marciano lost the votes to louis, then LOUIS IS THE WINNER!


why are u trying to cheat my man joe louis out of victory?

I said in the beginning of this tournament that if the votes are too close, then I will have the computer help in determine the winner---I find it surprising that nobody has complained of my methods up until now. As far as I am concerned, 4-3 is rather close to call, so with a best two out of three on the computer simulation (and all three fights were close and very hard) Marciano won barely two out of the three times---thus this was my deciding factor to place him into the finals, but if you wanted to go strictly by outcomes and votes, Marciano vs Louis, with Marciano winning two out of the three, would still make the fight 5-5 (draw) on the votes.

I'll tell you all what...since this has been such a big issue here, there will be two main events, Ali vs Marciano & Louis vs Ali, to appease both sides of the boxing spectrum---even though I do think I made the right decision to begin with, to have Marciano move on.

So I hope this makes the forum happy. The scores are still 2-1 in favor of Ali over Marciano. Keep voting.

Can you explain the 'computer' bit? The program you are using etc.

I've been a programmer for 25 years and have yet to see any signs of a 'program' that can analyse and predict the outcome of a fight with any degree of certainty. Surely if such a beast existed we'd be aware of it by now...

All I can imagine is someone coming up with a number crunching program that takes in a set of variables which the programmer gives various scores to. 99% of the outcome would be determined by what weighting the programmer had given to the dozens of intangibles that make up a fight. The human mind can already do that a million times better.

Basically, in a nutshell, and without swearing, at this point in time the idea of a computer being able to analyse a proposed fight is a fekkin myth.

Let's cease and desist with this idea of using a computer and submit the list to Monte Cox who will then give us the results correctly.

Thank you and good night.

It isn't so much a computer program, it's a game that uses statistics and rankings and records of the fighters to give a round by round description of the fights (TITLE BOUT CHAMPIONSHIP BOXING). I would say it isn't as accurate as an NCR-315 computer, but considering my tournament was based on Woroner's, I figured using a computer simulator of some sort would be better than nothing.

Actually what you propose is a rather grand idea indeed. I have an idea, why don't we let this tournament finish---and then we will send each fight, as this tournament has it as being, for that computer expert (yourself & Monte Cox) to determine who would win in each of those bouts.

I will give you the list after the tournament is completed. Until then, we still have Marciano vs Ali and Ali vs Louis to concern ourselves with.

2-1 Ali (Marciano vs Ali)

0-0 (Ali vs Louis)

IrishRufusMurphy wrote:I find it surprising that nobody has complained of my methods up until now.

You're right. I think up to this point you've had several others lose that were actually ahead in the balloting and nobody complained about those.

IrishRufusMurphy wrote:I said in the beginning of this tournament that if the votes are too close, then I will have the computer help in determine the winner

Crap computer, crap tournament.

Pundit.....sincerly hush the fawk up.

I think it's hilarious actually that right when it comes down to the Ali, Marciano, Louis that everybody gets pissed off and denies that Marciano would have no chance whatsoever against the likes of Louis or Ali.

Ali had hell with Frazier, who was like Marciano. Louis never was any good with pressure fighters. We could argue this over and over, but still in the end film and records don't lie---Ali's toughest opponent was Frazier, who is ranked less than Marciano over all by most real boxing authorities.

Louis by his own admission said he never felt he could beat Marciano, and less gifted fighters with a pressure/brawling style gave Louis problems, plus Joe actually fought the man, though not in his prime the man should know best than any other phuckin source whether or not he could have beaten Marciano in his prime---his answer was NO.

I can't say for sure that Ali could beat Marciano, or vice versa. Same as with Louis and Marciano prime for prime---or Louis vs Ali, I can't say for sure who would win. I can only go by what the real experts (Louis) says when it comes to prime vs prime.

I say this is biasm by most people here in the forums...Marciano manages to get in the semi-finals, beats Louis and everybody goes insane.

It's one thing to say I am wrong, but nobody bitched and complained when Tyson beat Frazier in this tournament or other fights that were close in the votes---and NOBODY complained when I said that in the beginning, until Marciano beat Louis in this tournament. You can't make exceptions, just because one fight went your way in opinion, and another didn't.

As far as Marciano-Ali is concerned, after viewing the original superfight over and over, all I can say is, if Marciano at 46 could hit Ali as good as he did, and this was Ali still in his prime---then I could only imagine Marciano at his prime going full-speed against Ali---and the computer was correct, that it would take a fighter with Marciano's style of cutting down the ring, infighting, pressuring, small and compact to beat Ali---and Joe Frazier proved that.

I can't say for sure Marciano would beat Ali, but in my opinion, it would be more heavily contested than the Ali-Frazier fights.

Now I suggest, if nobody thinks I did well in this tournament, I will just send a few e-mails around to real computer experts to see if they can or cannot make a better out-come than I can on the following fights:

Marciano vs Louis, Marciano vs Ali, Louis vs Ali.

Sound fair enough? If I can I will try to send an e-mail to Cyber Boxing Zone research specialist Tracy Callist, who also, at one time, set up a computer tournament with 2,000 Heavyweights from the 1880's to the present day.

But can we all just be civil and have fun with this? Keep voting, I'll try my best to get replies to my e-mails.

IrishRufusMurphy wrote:It isn't so much a computer program, it's a game that uses statistics and rankings and records of the fighters to give a round by round description of the fights (TITLE BOUT CHAMPIONSHIP BOXING). I would say it isn't as accurate as an NCR-315 computer, but considering my tournament was based on Woroner's, I figured using a computer simulator of some sort would be better than nothing.

Actually what you propose is a rather grand idea indeed. I have an idea, why don't we let this tournament finish---and then we will send each fight, as this tournament has it as being, for that computer expert (yourself & Monte Cox) to determine who would win in each of those bouts.

I will give you the list after the tournament is completed. Until then, we still have Marciano vs Ali and Ali vs Louis to concern ourselves with.

2-1 Ali (Marciano vs Ali)

0-0 (Ali vs Louis)

I have a better idea, mate. Why don't you have your computer program predict the results of some upcoming bouts. Then we will see how good it is.

You also seem confused about exactly who Monte Cox is.

Monte Cox is from the Cyber Boxing Zone as a member of it's research staff.

Atm I am sending e-mails to the CBZ and see if they can help in any way in this tournament; mainly Marciano, Louis and Ali squaring off with eachother.

Now, as far as Tracy Callist is concerned, when he ran his own tournament, his final top four HW's were Dempsey, Louis, Johnson and Jefferies, out of the 2,000 fighters at HW from 1880's to the present day, stating that Marciano and Ali barely missed the top four---he explained how he set up his tournament on the SUPERIGHT dvd; one deciding factor he created was that more modern fighters had better advantages in quickness and movement, while older fighters had greater durability and stamina---thus decreasing the stamina/endurance in the more recent fighters and etc.

This simply is more advanced than the computer program I have myself, so hopefully I will get some kind of assistance in this. But I will quote Tracy Callist when he was asked whom he thought he would win between Marciano and Ali: "Too close to call."

IrishRufusMurphy wrote:Monte Cox is from the Cyber Boxing Zone as a member of it's research staff.

Atm I am sending e-mails to the CBZ and see if they can help in any way in this tournament; mainly Marciano, Louis and Ali squaring off with eachother.

Now, as far as Tracy Callist is concerned, when he ran his own tournament, his final top four HW's were Dempsey, Louis, Johnson and Jefferies, out of the 2,000 fighters at HW from 1880's to the present day, stating that Marciano and Ali barely missed the top four---he explained how he set up his tournament on the SUPERIGHT dvd; one deciding factor he created was that more modern fighters had better advantages in quickness and movement, while older fighters had greater durability and stamina---thus decreasing the stamina/endurance in the more recent fighters and etc.

This simply is more advanced than the computer program I have myself, so hopefully I will get some kind of assistance in this. But I will quote Tracy Callist when he was asked whom he thought he would win between Marciano and Ali: "Too close to call."

Jeffries in the top 4?????

No Ali in the top 4???

'Nuf said.

Beam me up, Monte.

louis knocks marciano out after being down twice in the early rounds

ali wins a close unanimous decision over marciano in a thrilling fight where both take a lot of punishment



*frazier matches up better vs ali than marciano does IMO. not to mention frazier never fought a peak 64-67 ali

who was that poster that used to be on here claiming marciano was really 50-0 and had some mytsterious 50th bout after he retired?

he then said he was making a book about it