BoxRec

Shortly after Joe Frazier's victory over Muhammed Ali,

Bryant Gumbel, the editor of the Black Sports magazine,

wrote an article titled "Is Joe Frazier a White Champion in Black Skin?"

Pretty vile stuff from Bryant Gumbel.

Oh please. Gumbel was one guy, and most people think he's an idiot anyway. Gumbel himself said later that his article was wrong. Joe Frazier was not hated by the media at that time; how about you post some articles media people wrote about Ali in the 60s; now that's hatred. Floyd Patterson, after he lost to Ali, wrote an article about how the media and the fans were too hard on Ali, and Ali was probably nastier to Patterson than he was to Frazier.

I know I said I would ignore granberry, but this is bullshit. There may have been many fans at the time who disliked Joe Frazier because they liked Ali better, but Frazier had a lot of fans himself and was by no means derided by the general media at that time.

It is ironic the comments of Bryant Gumbel to call or question the great Joe Frazier as a white champion when Gumbel is not accepted in the Black Community as a real brother. Ain't his mama white or something? What an hypocrite

Bryant Gunbel's vile article is one example of the media's inability to accept the fact that Joe Frazier beat Ali.

What Gumbel did was wrong but he has apologized and moved on... But one needs to understand the politics of the time...Muhammad Ali was seen as the embodiment of a nascent black nationalism...Joe Frazier and George Foreman were seen as embodiments of the establishment which was white...That Frazier and Foreman didn't ask for these roles didn't matter to those who were criticizing them but it should...

I didn't know this was an American History , Sociology, or Political Science board...There are sites for that...

granberry wrote:Bryant Gunbel's vile article is one example of the media's inability to accept the fact that Joe Frazier beat Ali.

He asked you to post some more examples not to repeat what you already said many times already.

Frazier beat Ali. No one is disputing it.

Ali beat Frazier. No one is disputing it except you and Elmo.

Collins2000 wrote:

granberry wrote:Bryant Gunbel's vile article is one example of the media's inability to accept the fact that Joe Frazier beat Ali.

He asked you to post some more examples not to repeat what you already said many times already.

Frazier beat Ali. No one is disputing it.

Ali beat Frazier. No one is disputing it except you and Elmo.

This Elmo:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Tickle_me_elmo.jpg

I Feel Fine wrote:Oh please. Gumbel was one guy, and most people think he's an idiot anyway. Gumbel himself said later that his article was wrong. Joe Frazier was not hated by the media at that time; how about you post some articles media people wrote about Ali in the 60s; now that's hatred. Floyd Patterson, after he lost to Ali, wrote an article about how the media and the fans were too hard on Ali, and Ali was probably nastier to Patterson than he was to Frazier.

I know I said I would ignore granberry, but this is bullshit. There may have been many fans at the time who disliked Joe Frazier because they liked Ali better, but Frazier had a lot of fans himself and was by no means derided by the general media at that time.

As somebody who lived in that era , albeit I was very young, I can attest that Joe Frazier had plenty of fans as did Foreman...It wasn't until later in his career that Ali's appeal widened...Granny is a hard case...Most folks who opposed Ali's black nationalist stance in the 60's , his braggadocio, and his opposition to the war in Viet Nam have softened their stance...Because they saw the man's positive qualities; the way he handled adversity, the absence of fear in the face of great odds, and the dignified way in which he copes with a crippling disease....

Right.

Ali began to portray Frazier as an Uncle Tom, a pawn of the white establishment. . .

"I know what's going to happen the night before the fight," Ali said (New York Post, Jan. 15, 1971.). "That Joe Frazier, he's gonna get telephone calls from folks in Georgia and Alabama and Mississippi saying, 'Joe Frazier, you be a white man tonight and stop that draft-dodging n-----.' "

Ali delivered the line with a laugh and rolled his eyes, but, by attacking Frazier's legitimacy as an advocate for his own race, he demeaned his opponent, and he did it over and over again, like a candidate who found his stump speech.
. . .
Pacheco urged Ali to let the issue go. "You do not need to do this," Pacheco told him. "He's a black man like you are." Ali understood, but told Pacheco: "I like to get under his skin." Writer Dave Kindred believes that Ali's fears prompted the Uncle Tom references. "I think Frazier scared Ali more than anybody ever," Kindred said, "and that was why he was so mean, so contemptible in the things he said about him. Ali's moments of panic came out as mean-spirited stuff always when he was most afraid." Veteran columnists such as Dick Young and Jimmy Cannon, always wary of Ali, criticized his treatment of Frazier while the younger members of the pack gave him a pass. "He was such good entertainment and gave them such good quotes," explained Thomas Hauser.

Joe Frazier did not give Ali a pass, then or ever. He rightly pointed out the hypocrisy of being labeled an Uncle Tom by a black man whose trainer was white. In his autobiography, Frazier called it a "cynical attempt by Clay to make me feel isolated from my own people. He thought that would weaken me when it came time to face him in that ring. Well, he was wrong. It didn't weaken me, it awakened me to what a cheap-shot son of a bitch he was."

http://sports.yahoo.com/box/news?slug=m ... &type=lgns

granberry, just give it a rest.

Ali sold his fights, at the same time it was his tactic to annoy the opponent, make him angry and try to ruin his game plan and mind-set before the fight.

He did the same with Foreman, Liston, Patterson etc. Everyone did everything

observer1 wrote:granberry, just give it a rest.

Ali sold his fights, at the same time it was his tactic to annoy the opponent, make him angry and try to ruin his game plan and mind-set before the fight.

He did the same with Foreman, Liston, Patterson etc. Everyone did everything

Observor, give the Ali shilling a rest.

Frazier had to pull his kids out of the public schools, and his family had 24-hour security protection as a result of Ali's vile propaganda campaign against him.

granberry wrote:

observer1 wrote:granberry, just give it a rest.

Ali sold his fights, at the same time it was his tactic to annoy the opponent, make him angry and try to ruin his game plan and mind-set before the fight.

He did the same with Foreman, Liston, Patterson etc. Everyone did everything

Observor, give the Ali shilling a rest.

Frazier had to pull his kids out of the public schools, and his family had 24-hour security protection as a result of Ali's vile propaganda campaign against him.

Here we go again...


On the recent anniversary of Frazier's victory over Ali, Frazier said, "Hey man, just come on and give me a hug and let's get on with our lives."

Ali was recently in New York to accept the Humanitarian Award of United Cerebral Palsy of New York City and he told the New York Times he agrees with Frazier.

"In a way, Joe's right. I said a lot of things in the heat of the moment that I shouldn't have said. Called him names I shouldn't have called him. I apologize for that. I'm sorry. It was all meant to promote the fight."

Frazier embraced the apology. "I accept that," he said in a telephone interview with the Times from Wildwood, NJ. "I'll accept it, shake his hand and hug him when I see him. This has been going on too long.... Life's too short."


http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... i_72960912


I know it's frustrating to be on the losing side of history, ergo:

http://www.eclectictimes.com/mt-images/ ... -thumb.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seF7noys9QQ

You lost...

Suck it up....

The vileness of their hero has to be denied by the Grovelers for Ali.

Frazier had to pull his kids out of the public schools, and his family had to have 24-hour security protection as a result of Ali's vile propaganda campaign against him.

granberry wrote:The vileness of their hero has to be denied by the Grovelers for Ali.

Frazier had to pull his kids out of the public schools, and his family had to have 24-hour security protection as a result of Ali's vile propaganda campaign against him.

What part of "Ali apologized" do you not understand?

Boxers have done worse and not apologized...Mike Tyson still hasn't apologized for separating Desiree Washington from her hymen...A few taunts pale in comparison...

Granny, just say uncle and I'll leave you alone...

granberry wrote:The vileness of their hero has to be denied by the Grovelers for Ali.

Frazier had to pull his kids out of the public schools, and his family had to have 24-hour security protection as a result of Ali's vile propaganda campaign against him.

Someone just PM'd me and asked if I thought granberry was insane. I replied "Does a bear shit in the woods?".

What Ali did was fucking bullshit. A simple apology doesn't erase it. I hate to agree with Granberry, but that's that. At the same time, let's not forget that Muhammad Ali was the victim of an even more heinous smear campaign, by the United States government. It doesn't excuse his actions, but he was probably pretty angry about that to start with.

I didn't think the media paid much attention to Joe Frazier.

Ali losing by decision to Frazier seems far less embarressing than losses suffered by other champions such as Joe Louis getting brutally knocked out by Schmelling, Dempsey losing to Willie Meehan, Tyson getting thrashed by Buster Douglas and Holyfield losing to Golota victim Bowe.

If Ali had been kayoed by Richard Dunn than that would be embarressing.

The media on the whole did not "hate" Frazier back in his own day. The media was far more critical of Ali, ever since he converted to Islam. The people who hated Frazier were the young generation, the anti-war, anti-establishment protestors/demonstrators/activists, as they associated Frazier with the establishment.

Now, those demonstrators are all grown up, and most of the country sees the way they did back then, and the media does too.

However, I still don't agree that the media hates Frazier, but rather they now revere Ali. But in their effort to glorify Ali, they often distort facts, downplay some of the more vile things Ali has said and done, and (perhaps unintentionally) villify Frazier.

While Ali deserves all the credit in the world as a fighter, the effort to build him up as a person is absolute bullsh*t.

For example, in TV programs discussing Ali, he is often depicted as just a harmless jokester, when in fact much of what he's said about other fighters (particularly in regards to Frazier) was vile and despicable, and had quite serious consequences. I think what gets me most of all is when Ali's buddies, like Angelo Dundee and Dick Schaap, would come on TV time and again and say things like, "Ali never hated Frazier, all the hatred came from Frazier", as if Ali only ever made a few light-hearted jokes about Frazier, and Frazier is just some d*ck who can't take a joke.

Frazier also doesn't get celebrated by today's media for winning that first fight the way that he should, given all that was considered on the line for that fight. From the current media's perspective, the wrong guy won that fight. Celebrating it would mean celebrating a win for the '60s/70s establishment (symbolically speaking), which no one wants to do. Do you ever hear anyone say, "Man, Frazier really whupped that darn counterculture that night!" It would be the same as hailing a win for Schmeling, if he had won the rematch with Jou Louis. But things would be much different if Ali had won. Everytime the fight would get brought up, people would be hailing it as an inspirational victory for the counterculture over the evil establishment.

Big Bad John wrote:What Ali did was fucking bullshit. A simple apology doesn't erase it.

I agree.

And whenever the matter is discussed in today's media, Frazier is generally depicted as some kind of "bad guy" for his unwillingness to make up with Ali. But at the same time, the media persists in downplaying what Ali said to cause that friction, and the real impact of it. Why should Frazier pander to anyone that is actively supressing or distorting his side of the story?

My2Sense wrote:Frazier also doesn't get celebrated by today's media for winning that first fight the way that he should, given all that was considered on the line for that fight. From the current media's perspective, the wrong guy won that fight. Celebrating it would mean celebrating a win for the '60s/70s establishment (symbolically speaking), which no one wants to do. Do you ever hear anyone say, "Man, Frazier really whupped that darn counterculture that night!" It would be the same as hailing a win for Schmeling, if he had won the rematch with Jou Louis. But things would be much different if Ali had won. Everytime the fight would get brought up, people would be hailing it as an inspirational victory for the counterculture over the evil establishment.

And whenever the matter is discussed in today's media, Frazier is generally depicted as some kind of "bad guy" for his unwillingness to make up with Ali. But at the same time, the media persists in downplaying what Ali said to cause that friction, and the real impact of it. Why should Frazier pander to anyone that is actively supressing or distorting his side of the story?

Simple fiction.

Ali-Frazier I is the most celebrated fight in history and the notion that Frazier does not get credit for that win is a bit laughable. Also a bit hypocritical, as Frazier's fans rarely acknowledge the significance of the rematches; as if DeJesus should get more credit than Duran or Marquez more credit than Vazquez. And the media today hardly paints Frazier as the bad guy.

Ali was certainly wrong to call Frazier an "Uncle Tom" but it wasn't all one way, either. Frazier wasn't exactly polite to Ali on the Mike Douglas show in '69, while Ali didn't have anything particularly bad to say to Frazier then. It was mostly later, in the build up to the first fight, that he really started up with Frazier. The idea that a fighter shouldn't look for a psycholocial advantage over an opponent, or that Ali is the only boxer in history to look for a psychological advantage, is only something that a novice to boxing would say.

And I can't think of many "vile" things that Ali said to his opponents. Patterson, Terrell, Frazier; that's about it. And the Terrell and especially the Patterson incidents were not unprovoked. Ali went on to be friends with Patterson, as well as other opponents like Norton, who he visited in the hospital when Norton was injured in a career ending car accident, as well as Foreman, Holmes, Shavers etc. Quarry and Wepner and some others seemed to like him.

He shouldn't have called him an Uncle Tom. He apologized for it. It's not even in the top thirty of the worst things I've heard fighters say to other fighters, and the people who generally bring this topic up all the time are the kind of people who didn't/wouldn't have liked Ali anyway; which is fine. And that's about all that there is to say about it. I'm sure I would find myself a bit annoyed at someone too if they were given what I had for the mere fact that I had a differing political belief. And I'm sure I wouldn't dwell on something that was said to me during the Nixon administration, especially when I was being paid 2.5 million dollars in an era where an athlete was lucky to make 100 grand a year. In all, Smokin' Joe made 10.1 million dollars for his three combined fights with Ali; the idea that Frazier is a victim whom we should all feel sorry for is laughable; even if Ali was wrong, which he was. And I can't say that I'm a big fan of Frazier asking God to help him kill Ali in his pre-fight prayers; I don't care if its Ali or some unknown fighter from Latin America, I can't say that I'm a big fan of fighters dying in the ring, or of people who want fighters to die in the ring. Just goes to show that we can all be a bit petty.

I Feel Fine wrote:Simple fiction.

As opposed to simple facts, like Frazier edging a split decision? :P

Ali-Frazier I is the most celebrated fight in history and the notion that Frazier does not get credit for that win is a bit laughable.

Then I'll repeat the question that I asked in my post, do you see people on TV saying things like, "Man, Frazier sure taught that anti-establishment a lesson!" Do you see Frazier regularly being trumpeted as a hero to all those who wanted him to win (which was probably about half the country at the time)? Because if you don't, then he isn't currently being given the credit he deserves. Ali gets trumpeted for what he symbolized in that fight, so why shouldn't Frazier? Especially since he's the one who won the fight when all that was considered on the line.

And the media today hardly paints Frazier as the bad guy.

So you're saying you haven't seen all the times Ali's personal friends in the media have been on TV downplaying his actions, and the times when other members of the media have been critical of Frazier for not making up with him?

So according to your "Logic" granberry. Anyone who agrees with Ali is an Ali Fan, or as you call it, a "Shill" ?

What Ali said was mean , hateful, and ignorant....He has made a fulsome and public apology...There is nothing more he can do. But is it worse than celebrating the fact that your opponent in the ring is suffering from a debilitating disease and the announcer who commented on those fights died from it?

"...How many guys have you known within your time of being a sportswriter , how many athletes or announcers have the Parkinson's? You give me one guy. Now that there are two guys that drank out of the same glass together-him and Howard Cosell [who also suffered from Parkinson's Disease] I don't know what they were drinking . They might have had champagne. They might have had a little water. They might have had wine. I don't know. But I don't feel like its really the fight game that done this to him. I think the Almighty Lord shut him down."

I thought Frazier said he beat up Ali so bad that he gave him "the Parkinsons"...Does he think he's the Almighty Lord? ... I digress...

Muhammad Ali, Michael J. Fox, and the Reverend Billy Graham have "the Parkinsons"....Did the Alimighty Lord see the need to "shut them down"

Let's test everybody moral calculus...
Which is worse?

Saying derogatory things in the heat of battle and apologizing for it ?

or

Celebrating, nearly thirty five years later, that your opponet in that battle is suffering from a debilitating disease and the man who talked about it died from it?

Granberry is just sore that despite his best efforts and the efforts of a small, dwindling, minority Muhammad Ali is a beloved figure and cultural icon to many...I'll paraphrase Lonnie Ali:

"Ali would be the first to tell you that he never wanted to be deified, to be a god," "A person's perception is their reality. Whatever granberry perceives, or thinks he perceives, that's his reality. If the rest of society perceives Muhammad as a cultural icon, so be it."

Well, Ms. Ali, President George W. Bush and the nation he leads thinks your husband is a cultural icon:


Only a few athletes are ever known as the greatest in their sport, or in their time. But when you say, "The Greatest of All Time" is in the room, everyone knows who you mean. It's quite a claim to make -- but as Muhammad Ali once said, "It's not bragging if you can back it up." And this man backed it up.

From the day he won the Gold Medal at the 1960 Olympic Games, we all knew there was something special about this young fighter from Louisville, Kentucky. And his record of 56 and 5, including 37 knockouts and 19 successful title defenses, hardly begins to get the story. Far into the future, fans and students of boxing will study the films, and some will even try to copy his style. But certain things defy imitation: the Ali shuffle, the lightning jabs, the total command of the ring and, above all, the sheer guts and determination he brought to every fight.

This is a man who once fought more than 10 rounds with a fractured jaw. And he fought to complete exhaustion -- and victory -- in that legendary clash of greats in Manila. The real mystery, I guess, is how he stayed so pretty. (Laughter.) It probably had to do with his beautiful soul. He was a fierce fighter and he's a man of peace, just like Odessa and Cassius Clay, Sr. believed their son could be.

Across the world, billions of people know Muhammad Ali as a brave, compassionate and charming man, and the American people are proud to call Muhammad Ali one of our own


-President George W. Bush

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases ... 109-2.html




http://www.eclectictimes.com/mt-images/ ... -thumb.jpg