BoxRec

There is no way in hell that Mercante would do something like that.
First of all, look at the obvious. He is going to intentionally stick his finger in the eye of a fighter (twice) in one of the biggest fights in history with everyone watching?

Why has no one been talking about this until now?

If Mercante was crooked he wouldn't have scored the fight in Frazier's favor.

The whole idea that Mercante was crooked if just ridiculaus. He was considered the best referee in the sport for many years. If you watch old fights you will see him frequently. He was competent and fair.

That's not the question I was asked. Anyone would do anything if the price was right.

I didn't even realize that you asked a question. What was your question?

Is it something like "Everyone can be bribed "?
The answer to that is no.

No, I was asked the question.

I think you've got the wrong end of it.

I mentioned the fingers in the eye becuase it seemed a bit outrageous. I threw the comment in as a throw-away line. I really don't spend my life replaying clinches to see if someone is getting poked in the eye (but maybe I should).

Collins obviously thinks it's ridiculous. I love a good conspiracy, I'm the sort of guy who makes them up when there isn't one. So I played along with the alien love child of Elvis and Princess Di put a voodoo hex on Mercante forcing him to gouge out Frazier's eye...

Then again, wasn't Joe almost blind in one eye by the third fight? Maybe Ali's people really did have Mercante working on it from as far back as the 1st fight just to make sure Ali would win the series.

I wouldn't put it past them.

In my opinion the Frazier that beat Ali would have beaten any post-layoff version of Ali (Zaire, MSG, Manilla, etc). The 60s version of Ali is a different matter. Few HW fighters ever faced a mover like that who had stamina, endurance and an iron chin (and despite disparaging comments about his punch power he seemed to find the big shots whenever he needed them,). Even so I think Frazier would stand a great chance but that’s something different…

As for the 2nd encounter, I don’t see much difference in Ali’s performance at all. The big difference is Joe. He’s not the same fighter any morel. He’s lost a beat in all departments and to beat a guy like Ali you need to be all over them for three quarters of the fight (because Ali was very, very difficult to stop).

My point on ‘swept under the carpet’ is simply that if saying that Ali or Louis lose to anyone is such a big deal that everyone starts slinging mud around and posting pictures then how comes both men did lose fights. Shouldn’t that put some perspective on things rather than being demoted as accidents of history (which if you read some of these posts both fights were)?

I Feel Fine wrote:Few people would even know who Max Schmeling was if it wasn't for that first Louis fight.

I disagree. Max Schmeling was a former undisputed World Heavyweight Champion before he fought Joe Louis.

Friedie wrote:

I Feel Fine wrote:Few people would even know who Max Schmeling was if it wasn't for that first Louis fight.

I disagree. Max Schmeling was a former undisputed World Heavyweight Champion before he fought Joe Louis.

That's right, just proves the point.

Despite the best or second best (depends on who your number 1 is) win in the division Schmeling is seen to be anonymous.

Ezzard wrote: I'm not sure about fingers in eyes but I never studied the film to that extent.

That is pathetic. A sad indication of the level of competence on display here.

In the tenth round, in attempting to break a (Ali instigated) clinch,

incompetent "referee" Merchante drove his right arm upward from underneath the fighter's arms.

He missed the arms, and drove his bunched fingers into Frazier's eye.

What he did in driving his fingers into Frazier's eye is called a "knife hand" in certain types of martial arts.

Merchante drove his hand upward with all the strength of his arm.

Frazier jumped back. He motioned to his corner (Yank Durham) with his right arm.

Then he turned and motioned at the referee with his left arm.
Ali stood back and watched.

Then after a bit, the fight resumed.

If someone is unable to see that, then their "study" of the same fight probably would not tell them that Frazier knocked Ali flat on his back in the 15th round.

After Merchante's stab to Frazier's eye, the 10th round continued.

Apparently Frazier didn't care for having a second opponent in the ring with him in the form of the 'referee.'
Toward the end of the round Frazier caught Ali on the ropes and gave Ali a tremendous beating, landing his heaviest left hooks repeatedly.

The one minute's rest was not long enough for Ali to recover (perhaps he needed extra time between rounds like in his first fight with Cooper).

Shortly after the next round (the 11th) started, Frazier hit Ali on the chin with his left hook and Ali went down on both knees.
"Referee" Merchante ran in and called it a "slip."

From the neutral corner he had gone to, Frazier stared on in open-mouthed astonishment at the referee's calling the knockdown a "slip."

When Ali got up from his 'slip', Frazier came after him, and for the last minute of the round Ali staggered around so badly that it looked like he was auditioning for a part as a drunk in a 5th rate silent movie.

Ferdie Pacheco, a flaming shill for Ali if there ever was one, called that round "the terrible 11th."

Posters here can "study" films to the end of time and they will never see what is obvious to a 2-year-old.

CAN YOU IMAGINE how Angelo Dundee and all the members of The Religion of Ali would have howled if the refree had stuck his fingers in Ali's eye? We would never hear the end of it.

But the referee sticking his fingers in Frazier's eye in the middle of a heavyweight championship fight is just fine.

That is the only fight I know of in the entire history of boxing where a refreee stuck his fingers in a fighter's eye.

.

[quote="Ezzard"]As for the 2nd encounter, I don’t see much difference in Ali’s performance at all.

He had a lot more energy, so he didn't have to stand still as much and be hit as much by Frazier. His timing was also better in the 2nd fight.

As for Schmeling, he wouldn't be annoymous if he hadn't beaten Louis, but he wouldn't get near the attention that he does since he did beat Louis. Which is the way it should be.
If you take out his win over Louis, he would be thought of about as much as Jack Sharkey or Max Baer, and he wouldn't be rated above them.

However, he did beat Louis, and deserves credit for it and he gets it. He is thought of atleast as much as the typical mid-level heavyweight champion and is generally given the benefit of the doubt when people rate him.

I don't see how Schmeling can be see as underrated. If anything he gets a free pass for the 2nd Louis fight. Everyone just talks about Louis' great perfromance. What gets overlooked is Schmeling's pathetic performance.

Ezzard - As for Mercante, I guess I was a little confused. I thought you were actually saying you thought that Mercante really did try to poke a finger in Frazier eye. I see know that you are joking about it.
In the future, make sure we know that you are joking!

Friedie wrote:

I Feel Fine wrote:Few people would even know who Max Schmeling was if it wasn't for that first Louis fight.

I disagree. Max Schmeling was a former undisputed World Heavyweight Champion before he fought Joe Louis.

Boxing fans would know who he is, I'm talking about people in general or even typical everyday sports fans. I doubt many of them know who Jack Sharkey is. If you were to ask some guy off the street, there's a pretty decent possibility that he might know who Max Schmeling was. If he does, its because of Joe Louis, not because of Young Stribbling.

Someone shows a lack of knowledge of boxing history if they suggest that Max Schmeling was swept under the carpet after the first Louis fight. The first Louis fight made his career and ensured that he would be a vividly remembered figure in boxing history. Like I said in the another thread, Max Schmeling would think you were a lunatic if you were to have asked him "were you swept under the carpet after you beat Louis?" It's simply a stupid thing to say.

Mercante accidentally poking Frazier in the eye isn't as bad as a referee sending Ali and Frazier to their corners thinking the round is over, as Ali has Frazier hurt. Mills Lane pushed Bernard Hopkins out of the freaking ring; accidents happen. It could have been worse, it could have been Frazier's third fight in five months, after coming off a 43 month layoff...

If Frazier had hurt Ali, and the ref had broken them up, granberry would go wall to wall with that story.

Ezzard wrote:In my opinion the Frazier that beat Ali would have beaten any post-layoff version of Ali (Zaire, MSG, Manilla, etc). The 60s version of Ali is a different matter. Few HW fighters ever faced a mover like that who had stamina, endurance and an iron chin (and despite disparaging comments about his punch power he seemed to find the big shots whenever he needed them,). Even so I think Frazier would stand a great chance but that’s something different…

As for the 2nd encounter, I don’t see much difference in Ali’s performance at all. The big difference is Joe. He’s not the same fighter any morel. He’s lost a beat in all departments and to beat a guy like Ali you need to be all over them for three quarters of the fight (because Ali was very, very difficult to stop).

My point on ‘swept under the carpet’ is simply that if saying that Ali or Louis lose to anyone is such a big deal that everyone starts slinging mud around and posting pictures then how comes both men did lose fights. Shouldn’t that put some perspective on things rather than being demoted as accidents of history (which if you read some of these posts both fights were)?

I want to focus in one some of these points.

I think you're making excuses for Frazier. Some of you seem to believe that its wrong to make "excuses" about Ali in the first fight, and yet that's exactly what you're doing for Frazier in regards to the rematches. And, based on your comments, it seems that the reason is because you're holding Ali to a much higher standard than Frazier, that you feel that Ali gets "too much credit" while Frazier is "swept under the carpet", and so you're using that as an excuse to play up the first fight and play down the rematches. It is true that Frazier was not in his prime in the rematches, but neither was Ali, and Frazier was by no means a shot fighter. The real difference, in my opinion, between the first fight and the rematches is that in the rematches they were on a level playing field, and that's why the rematches, particularly the second fight, are more important.

The issue of age is a red herring. No one needs to explain to me that Ali in 1971 was younger than Ali in 1974; I sort of figured that out on my own. Age was not Ali's problem in the first fight.

As for the question of how Ali fought; Ali clearly fought a different fight the second time. Rather than try to out do Frazier in offense, he fought more defensively and tried to shut off Frazier's offense. I do not think Frazier was as good in the second fight as he was in the first fight, but the difference to me is how Ali fought, and more importantly that Ali had been active going into the fight. Its easy for you to sit around and pretend like you know that one or two tune ups changes everything, but you're not the one in the ring. Ali looked terrible against Bonavena, and while he was much better against Frazier he was not ready for that kind of 15 rounder and struggled in the championship rounds, while Ali was normally very strong at that stage of his fights. If he had been more active, I believe he does better in those rounds and wins the decision.

I already used the example of Sugar Ray Robinson, but there are many examples of fighters having difficulty after long stretches of inactivity, even with a couple of tune ups. And the tune ups issue is not the point either, because I personally have acknowledged that the tune ups DID help Ali, my point however is that he was not all the way back, and that when you have two evenly matched fighters, even a small advantage can make the difference; and I think its clear that Frazier had more than a small advantage by fighting Ali at that time. If Ali had been able to have waited a little longer, and if he had maybe had one more tune up, I think its a different fight.

No one has claimed that Ali or Louis were unbeatable. I'm tired of hearing that, whether its here or in homicidehenry's thread. No serious boxing fan would say that Ali or Louis could not be beaten. But, with that said, yes, these fights, in my opinion, were accidents of history. Louis was young and inexperienced and did not take Schmeling seriously. I do not believe that the Louis of the second fight loses to the Schmeling of the first fight. And I've already stated why Ali-Frazier I is a tainted fight. No one is saying that Schmeling and Frazier didn't fight great fights or that they weren't great fighters, and I believe that Frazier would give any version of Ali problems. I tend to think Louis knocks Schmeling out on most nights, but I do think Schmeling exposed real flaws in Louis' style.

Frazier lost in a Fair fight. End of Discussion..

granberry wrote:

Ezzard wrote: I'm not sure about fingers in eyes but I never studied the film to that extent.

That is pathetic. A sad indication of the level of competence on display here.

In the tenth round, in attempting to break a (Ali instigated) clinch,

incompetent "referee" Merchante drove his right arm upward from underneath the fighter's arms.

He missed the arms, and drove his bunched fingers into Frazier's eye.

What he did in driving his fingers into Frazier's eye is called a "knife hand" in certain types of martial arts.

Merchante drove his hand upward with all the strength of his arm.

Frazier jumped back. He motioned to his corner (Yank Durham) with his right arm.

Then he turned and motioned at the referee with his left arm.
Ali stood back and watched.

Then after a bit, the fight resumed.

If someone is unable to see that, then their "study" of the same fight probably would not tell them that Frazier knocked Ali flat on his back in the 15th round.

After Merchante's stab to Frazier's eye, the 10th round continued.

Apparently Frazier didn't care for having a second opponent in the ring with him in the form of the 'referee.'
Toward the end of the round Frazier caught Ali on the ropes and gave Ali a tremendous beating, landing his heaviest left hooks repeatedly.

The one minute's rest was not long enough for Ali to recover (perhaps he needed extra time between rounds like in his first fight with Cooper).

Shortly after the next round (the 11th) started, Frazier hit Ali on the chin with his left hook and Ali went down on both knees.
"Referee" Merchante ran in and called it a "slip."

From the neutral corner he had gone to, Frazier stared on in open-mouthed astonishment at the referee's calling the knockdown a "slip."

When Ali got up from his 'slip', Frazier came after him, and for the last minute of the round Ali staggered around so badly that it looked like he was auditioning for a part as a drunk in a 5th rate silent movie.

Ferdie Pacheco, a flaming shill for Ali if there ever was one, called that round "the terrible 11th."

Posters here can "study" films to the end of time and they will never see what is obvious to a 2-year-old.

CAN YOU IMAGINE how Angelo Dundee and all the members of The Religion of Ali would have howled if the refree had stuck his fingers in Ali's eye? We would never hear the end of it.

But the referee sticking his fingers in Frazier's eye in the middle of a heavyweight championship fight is just fine.

That is the only fight I know of in the entire history of boxing where a refreee stuck his fingers in a fighter's eye.

.

Great Story Gran! I laughed I cried, I was moved!

You have all the makings of a great fiction writer! Now let's see how you do with Non-Fiction.....Please tell us the REAL story of Ali Frazier II where just as things were heating up in the second round and the bad guy was puttin an unfair whuppin on uno who, who comes to the rescue but Tony P. and saves Joey from what looked to be dire straights indeed! What a great idea Tony had to end the round about 30 seconds early to give a man a little extra needed rest when things got too hot! I mean what was Ali thinking staggering Joe and then walking him down puttin heavy leather to him like that? Fortunately Joe had his partner call a time out to give Joe a bit of time to pull himself together from what that bully was up to. I think Tony did a good job of saving us from having to see Joe forced to the canvas by those ineffectual arm punches of Ali's. It would have been a real shame to have an entire evenings planned entertainment spoiled by a second round KO.

What was Joe doing right before Ali staggered Smokey with that right?

Now that's a story worth tellin'!

BoxBuzz wrote:

ebeneezer wrote:Calling someone a feminine snake isn't an opinion,surely

true, however can't we make room for an eccentric curmudgeon who really does no harm other than to roar and bark a bit? His opinions are so strong he can't help his reactions. And honestly we often provoke his responses.

He's obviously had some honest ring experience which he likes to point out is more than I've had. On a few things he gets it quite right. The fact that he embellishes or that he is gruff is irrelevant I.M.H.O.

In many cases he has taken ribbings with some humor, and the fact that he won't budge an inch regarding his opinions or accept even a light jab without throwing a verbal counter punch shows a granite like quality.

Are you serious Buzz? Granberry has sabotaged more interesting post with his nonsense than any other poster I've ever read. It seems his sole intent in 90% of the stuff he writes is to piss people off. He is such a troll of the highest order he makes Decagon look like...well, you.
The fact that he doesn't budge from his asinine opinions doesn't demonstrate some granite like quality; it demonstrates his stupidity.
And with all due respect buzz, they way you constantly defend him is starting to resemble a battered house wife defending her husband every time he smacks the sh*t out of her.

F*ck Granberry.

theone wrote: F*ck Granberry.

The One is a class act.

Can't handle the truth,so he(she?) resorts to the only defense he (she?) knows.

granberry wrote:

theone wrote: F*ck Granberry.

The One is a class act.

Can't handle the truth,so he(she?) resorts to the only defense he (she?) knows.

Its he, Granberry. And f*ck you again.

"BJer...you can kiss my *ss." - Granberry

Hypocrite.

I Feel Fine wrote:

Mercante accidentally poking Frazier in the eye isn't as bad as a referee sending Ali and Frazier to their corners thinking the round is over.

DO the following, ifeelfine:

Take your right arm

Hold it out two feet from your head--with your fingers straight and bunched together

Now drive it, HARD, right into your open eye

Then (if you can) post back here and

tell all of us how it feels.

The total lack of reality the members of The Religion of Ali have is illustrated perfectly by ifeelfine's complete lack of reality on what it means for a fighter to have someone drive their fingers, hard, into his open eye

in the middle of a championship fight.

Of course, in the world of unreality ifeelfine dwells in,

Frazier's eye didn't feel it, because it was 'accidental',

theone wrote:

granberry wrote:

theone wrote: F*ck Granberry.

The One is a class act.

Can't handle the truth,so he(she?) resorts to the only defense he (she?) knows.

Its he, Granberry. And f*ck you again.

I have the distinct impression it's SHE, one.

You have SO MUCH to offer this site.

Fraudulent Granberry has a response for everyone...except Buzz on his points regarding the second stanza of Ali-Frazier II

You're such a whiner.

I didn't say that it didn't hurt Frazier, assuming it happened at all, I said if it did happen it was likely an accident.

What happened to Mercante that night, anyway? He was clearly an Ali industry shill, and yet he scored the fight for Frazier. Did his Ali industry check bounce that week?

If a referee pulled Frazier off a hurt Ali when a round wasn't over, you would scream fix to high heaven. The reality is that goofy things happen in every fight, and all you do is pick out the little instances where those might have favored Ali, trying to create a perception that everything favored Ali, which is obviously not true.

Bundini telling Ali that famous boxing personality 'granberry' is picking Foreman to win by 1st round KO.

Ali to the rescue after hearing that famous boxing personality 'granberry' is lying in the road blind drunk again.

Collins2000 wrote:

Ali to the rescue after hearing that famous boxing personality 'granberry' is lying in the road blind drunk again.