Ali in his prime: 4 guys that SURELY would've beaten him

[Collins2000]

It was lost with all my other scorecards in the great flood of '89.

It was in all the papers.

I do distinctly recall watching Norton beat the snot out of Holmes and then saying afterwards,"Gee. That Holmes guy sure got a gift decision over Norton."

Cap

No way was that a gift decision for Holmes.

He earned it.

I was rooting for Kenny who had his moments but to me he was clearly beaten.

Good fight though.



I

[raylawpc]

Watching it on TV, I had it for Norton by one point. I didn't think then, and I do not think now, that it was a decisive win for Norton. And I have no argument with anyone who had it close for Holmes the other way.

[Robinson]

Bowe is about as good as a hung over George Godfrey ...

Ok... Can I have a link or a place where I can get some access to some of Godfrey's fights. I am assuming you have a few good bouts of him at various stages of his career.

DF,
Maybe Bowe should of had 3 years off to lengthen his title reign. Thats the best way of going about it eh. I mentioned Fergusson because YOU mentioned him.

Fergusson was not the best opponent I agree...BUT the argument was that he won the shot by beating Mercer who was a capable guy. Who did Jimmy Darcy earn his shot against when he got to fight dempsey for the title ?
Billy Miske got a shot against Dempsey because of his draws and win over Frank Moran ?

What big wins did Bill Brenan have before he challenged Dempsey ?

Im not a Bowe appologist and I dont think his career was as good as it perhaps could have been and it seems that he did have an old school approach to his defences (journeymen, over the hill ex champs) however his rein was short lived.

Historically Dempsey is most definetly a greater icon. This to me does not mean that I think he would beat Bowe however.

Just because he toppled a Willard does not mean he has the blue print to be beat every 'big' HW.

Kym

[yancey]

"...What small quality fighter did Bowe ever beat besides Holyfield?? And Holyfield bested him in the rematch and should have beat him in the rubber match to make it 2 out of 3..." - Dempsey

That could quite easily be turned on it's head, though. You can make the case Bowe won their second fight (myself, I cannot get away from a 114-113 scoreline in Bowe's favour), so it could quite readily have been 3/3 for Bowe against Holyfield.

I do think Frazier struggles with a peak Bowe. He's not Foreman in terms of raw power, but he's a better technical fighter, & can certainly hit hard enough to hurt Frazier, at any rate. It'd be an awful tough few early rounds for Joe (where most of Riddick's KO's occurred), in which I would not be terribly surprised if he got to Frazier. I think, all things considered, I would favour Frazier to weather an early storm & stop Bowe late, but I wouldn't put money down on it.

Dempsey would blow Bowe away early, IMO. Bowe's defense was awful, & he'd be hurt badly. Dempsey would stop him, in my book.

Frazier will probably lose the first two rounds, but I can't see any way in which Bowe manages to put Frazier away, whose chin was excellent. I don't understand why the Foreman fight suddenly makes Frazier vulnerable against anyone with a punch early. I actually see the younger Foreman as being quicker than Bowe. Bowe had ok handspeed for a big guy but I see Frazier easily rolling/slipping the wide majority his shots.

Frazier was hittable vs the likes of Ali, Mathis Sr. and Ellis, extremely quick and sharp punchers. Even Bugner had much quicker hands than Riddick. Vs Bowe I think Frazier would find the difference in handspeed extremely favorable and that Bowe would be extremely easy to counter with his two handed attack to the body and the left hook to the chin.

[Robinson]

DF and Yancey do you feel the Frazier vs Bugner fight was over whelmingly dominant one for Frazier ?

Bugner may have had faster hands than Bowe, but how was his power and chin compared to Bowe. Would you say that he was more skilled than a peak Bowe ?

Mathis sr, as awkward and suprisingly fast as this big man was, Frazier rightly did have trouble with him. Do you think that perhaps Bowe was a little better than Mathis sr ? Maybe not as smooth with his shots, but once again he had a better beard and power and would do a better job at working in where mathis was not as effective.

Using these two examples is a bit silly to me because in a way they kinda prove that some one like Bowe would have the ability to beat Frazier. Thats just how I see it...I am not trying to be argumentative.

I personally rate Frazier alot higher than Bowe and love to watch him fight more than most other fighters. BUT....I still think he has ALOT of trouble vs Riddick/

[Goodnight, Irene]

Holyfield's left hook (just one shot) had Bowe flopping about on the canvas, & then covering up for dear life, Robinson. I don't think his chin was that great. Another single shot shook Bowe in the closing seconds of round ten in their first encounter.

To be fair, he did take a lot of shots from Golota, especially in their second bout, & even though he was down twice, he stood up to many hard shots.

(Will get to your question when time permits, Ray )

[raylawpc]

Robinson, I would suggest that the Jimmy Darcy "fight" was a title defense in name only:

"Jack Dempsey successfully defended his heavy weight championship last night for the first time since he won from Georges Carpentier at Jersey City, more than a year ago. Jimmy Darcy, a 'stable mate' of Dempsey’s was the opponent, and the champion received the decision after four rounds of boxing. Such is the information that reached here today from Buffalo, to find confirmation at the office of the New York Boxing Commission. Dempsey, originally carded to box an exhibition with three opponents at Buffalo last night, was confronted, just before entering the ring, with a telegram from the local office of the New York Boxing Commission, advising that he would be permitted to meet only one opponent, and that the bout must go to a decision. Jimmy Darcy, light heavy weight, who has been on tour with Dempsey for the last several days, was selected as the opponent. The champion took no chances on any adverse decision being given, the advices from Buffalo state, and boxed in a masterly fashion for the four rounds. At the conclusion the decision was his by a wide margin. At the office of the New York commission today, Secretary Harry Burchell said: 'Of course the bout had to be a decision. We had to see that the law was upheld. We make no distinction between exhibitions and regulation contests, according to law.' So Darcy has the distinction of having lasted longer with the champion than Georges Carpentier, Jess Willard, Ed (Gunboat) Smith or Carl Morris. Had Darcy landed a 'lucky' punch he would be the world’s heavy weight champion today." San Francisco Chronicle

In 1920, who would you have suggested that Dempsey fight instead of Miske and Brennan?

(I admit Harry Wills might be a fair answer, except that Tex Rickard - the top promoter at that time - had stated he would never again promote a "mixed race" heavyweight title fight in light of the race riots that followed Jeffries-Johnson in 1910.)

[Robinson]

Ray

Thanks for that mate. In 1920 who should he have defended against...that was white. Tough call but one thing for certain is that, that period was certainly a rich and jam packed filled one in history.

[Cap]

In early 1920 one name springs to mind. Harry Greb. By March of that year he had wins over numerous name opponents, including heavyweights Bartley Madden, Willie Meehan, Bill Brennan, Capt Bob Roper and lightheavy Battling Levinsky. Now that would've been a battle!

Cap

[dempseyfire]

DF and Yancey do you feel the Frazier vs Bugner fight was over whelmingly dominant one for Frazier ?

Bugner may have had faster hands than Bowe, but how was his power and chin compared to Bowe. Would you say that he was more skilled than a peak Bowe ?

Mathis sr, as awkward and suprisingly fast as this big man was, Frazier rightly did have trouble with him. Do you think that perhaps Bowe was a little better than Mathis sr ? Maybe not as smooth with his shots, but once again he had a better beard and power and would do a better job at working in where mathis was not as effective.

Using these two examples is a bit silly to me because in a way they kinda prove that some one like Bowe would have the ability to beat Frazier. Thats just how I see it...I am not trying to be argumentative.

I personally rate Frazier alot higher than Bowe and love to watch him fight more than most other fighters. BUT....I still think he has ALOT of trouble vs Riddick/

To answer your questions:

1) Firstly, Dempsey's opponents. Who had Miske beaten? Well, he had drawn with Dempsey himself, along with Fulton and beaten contenders Gunboat Smith, Charley Weinert, Bill Brennan, Carl Morris, and Battling Levinsky. Brennan's record wasn't as impressive but he'd beaten a slew of fringe contenders along with beating top contenders Madden and Levinsky. They were much more qualified and better challenges to the title than a shot fat Dokes, Ferguson, Hide, and Gonzales.

2) Bugner didn't have the power of Bowe, but had much quicker feet and hands, and was a much better defensive fighter than Bowe (which is how he survived till the end) Bugner's chin was just as solid as Bowes as well. I can't remember Bugner (in his prime) ever getting put on queer street like Bowe was in Holyfield III, and Bugner faced some bangers.
I think Mathis Sr (extremely under-rated IMO), who I see as a superior version of Tony Tubbs, would outbox Bowe to a decision win, as Tubbs nearly did.

[raylawpc]

In early 1920 one name springs to mind. Harry Greb. By March of that year he had wins over numerous name opponents, including heavyweights Bartley Madden, Willie Meehan, Bill Brennan, Capt Bob Roper and lightheavy Battling Levinsky. Now that would've been a battle!

Cap

Was anyone calling for Dempsey to fight Greb in 1920?

[Robinson]

I meant leading up to that fight, in order to get his title shot.

In regards to Mathis Sr, I think too that he is under rated and while they can be compared, Mathis to me seems more like a little man in a big ones body. He always seemed to try and fight 'small.

I think that Bowe is far superior to Bugner in a great many ways.

Which would be worse do you think ...

Bowe refusing to fight Lewis by dumping the WBC belt in the bin...

Or Dempsey been stripped by the NYAC title and blatantly refusing to face Harry Wills. Its not as though good money and serious attempts had not been made at the time.

ATLEAST Bowe had faced Lewis in the amateurs.

Or would you say that Bowe's poor title reign and being droped by Holyfield is as bad as say spending a whole year not defending your title only to face a mate in Jimmy Darcy and then to go 3 whole years without a defence only to fight LHW and MW Tunney ?

Thanks again

Kym

[dempseyfire]

I meant leading up to that fight, in order to get his title shot.

In regards to Mathis Sr, I think too that he is under rated and while they can be compared, Mathis to me seems more like a little man in a big ones body. He always seemed to try and fight 'small.

I think that Bowe is far superior to Bugner in a great many ways.

Which would be worse do you think ...

Bowe refusing to fight Lewis by dumping the WBC belt in the bin...

Or Dempsey been stripped by the NYAC title and blatantly refusing to face Harry Wills. Its not as though good money and serious attempts had not been made at the time.

ATLEAST Bowe had faced Lewis in the amateurs.

Or would you say that Bowe's poor title reign and being droped by Holyfield is as bad as say spending a whole year not defending your title only to face a mate in Jimmy Darcy and then to go 3 whole years without a defence only to fight LHW and MW Tunney ?

Thanks again

Kym

To the contrary, Dempsey's entire pre-Willard resume is more impressive than Bowe's entire career.

The reasons Dempsey didn't fight Willis have been discussed numerous times, there are many reasons, I have no doubts that him 'ducking Willis' was not one of them.

[Goodnight, Irene]

"In what aspects of the game do you find Bowe better technically than Foreman?" - Ray

Leading upto (including during, & immediately thereafter) his title shot in 1992, Bowe was a pretty proficient big man. I thought his punch technique was superior to Foreman's (Bowe had power, but he didn't absolutely swing for the fences the way Foreman started doing around 1970-71 --- though, I grant you, Bowe was as sloppy in his punch technique by the time he faced Golota as Foreman ever was), & that goes for inside & outside on opposition. Foreman had a very good jab, but, under Saddler's guidance, he began to neglect it, & I still don't think in the first part of his career it was as good a straight left hand as Bowe's, the jab being the under-pinning to get inside (where Bowe was a lot better than Foreman), or to keep opposition at range, something a tall man like Bowe could do.

Bowe (until the latter stages of his career) was the more technically-proficient puncher.

[Robinson]

I think that Foreman was alot more raw and violent inside the ropes than Bowe. I have to agree with GI...Bowe did appear more adept technically than Foreman.

I am talking about Dempsey's title reign. And in any case, Bowe had some good scalps on his record too. Here is the thing with guys like Dempsey you get to see some key fights how many of his pre Willard bouts have you seen ? The Jim Flynn match ??

How many matches of his talented foes have you seen ?

One advantage of assessing more modern fighters is we do get to see nearly entire careers of them and there opponents, which often does not show them in a stellar light.

The golden oldies stand tall as men of talent, and in many a fans eyes are un blemished because those few bouts we do get to see are all we go by so there fore we never get a complete picture.

In any case, I think Ali beats Dempsey in a decision, much the same way as Tunney did, but with better size and pop behind his game. Ali should look to flurry and smother, pop and run, jab and grab and all those things a smaller mauler hates to deal with. For Dempsey I think he should drill that body, try to trap Ali, get his head into his chest and blast around and up. The trouble is, getting Ali in such a place.

Ali I shall say also beats Bowe, by decision, but boy does Bowe make it hard for him. The key to such a match up is the jab. Does Bowe throw it enough and stick with it. For Ali its that movement...stay of the ropes and keep Bowe chasing...make him lunge keep him off balance.


Kym

[Robinson]

I dont give a shit for what ever reasons one can list.

Dempsey ducked Wills. On numerous occasions. The money was put up. Even Wills was given what a $50k gurantee by one promoter ?

Burns for all his faults atleast ducked no one. He made conditions got paid for and and bam lost to a better man.

Bowe ducked Lewis..for whatever reason.

Kym

[yancey]

DF and Yancey do you feel the Frazier vs Bugner fight was over whelmingly dominant one for Frazier ?

Bugner may have had faster hands than Bowe, but how was his power and chin compared to Bowe. Would you say that he was more skilled than a peak Bowe ?

Mathis sr, as awkward and suprisingly fast as this big man was, Frazier rightly did have trouble with him. Do you think that perhaps Bowe was a little better than Mathis sr ? Maybe not as smooth with his shots, but once again he had a better beard and power and would do a better job at working in where mathis was not as effective.

Using these two examples is a bit silly to me because in a way they kinda prove that some one like Bowe would have the ability to beat Frazier. Thats just how I see it...I am not trying to be argumentative.

I personally rate Frazier alot higher than Bowe and love to watch him fight more than most other fighters. BUT....I still think he has ALOT of trouble vs Riddick/

Kym,

I lost real avid interest in boxing from around 1975 up until recently, so I can't really say that I know that much about Bowe. The impression of Bowe that I got from afar was that he was physically talented, but mentally weak and coasted sometimes in his fights. That tendency would have got him in trouble with Frazier.

As far as Bugner-Frazier goes, yes, Joe did not overwhelm him, but I never felt Joe was in danger of losing the fight and this was also Frazier three years removed from his real prime. A swarmer like Frazier is also apt to have a very short prime. Anyway, Frazier did knock Bugner down in the 10th, and the old Joe most likely would have finished him before there was ever a 10th round. If you remember that knockdown, Bugner was actually out on his feet, hands down, Joe held up instead of finishing him (can you imagine Foreman or Ali holding up in that situation?) and finally Bugner fell to the canvas.

BTW, Dempsey, if you read this, was Bugner not on "queer street" in that situation?

With Mathis Sr, I guess you can say Joe took a while to finally put Buster away, but was Joe ever in trouble in the fight? If so, I sure don't recall it.

My impression was that maybe Mathis had a small lead through maybe 5 rounds, but Frazier pretty well bossed him around the ring after that and the eventual outcome was pretty evident to observers. I think that fight would be a blueprint for how a Bowe-Frazier fight would go. Bowe starts out well, is winning after 4 rounds, but Frazier is a relentless machine and breaks down Bowe bit by bit.

p.s. You never come across as argumentative to me. I have absolutely no problem with people having different opinions, there is always a small chance I could be wrong.

[raylawpc]

"In what aspects of the game do you find Bowe better technically than Foreman?" - Ray

Leading upto (including during, & immediately thereafter) his title shot in 1992, Bowe was a pretty proficient big man. I thought his punch technique was superior to Foreman's (Bowe had power, but he didn't absolutely swing for the fences the way Foreman started doing around 1970-71 --- though, I grant you, Bowe was as sloppy in his punch technique by the time he faced Golota as Foreman ever was), & that goes for inside & outside on opposition. Foreman had a very good jab, but, under Saddler's guidance, he began to neglect it, & I still don't think in the first part of his career it was as good a straight left hand as Bowe's, the jab being the under-pinning to get inside (where Bowe was a lot better than Foreman), or to keep opposition at range, something a tall man like Bowe could do.

Bowe (until the latter stages of his career) was the more technically-proficient puncher.

Fair enough. Thanks for your comments.

[raylawpc]

Dempsey ducked Wills. On numerous occasions. The money was put up. Even Wills was given what a $50k gurantee by one promoter ?

It wasn't all that simple. You might want to read Randy Roberts, Jack Dempsey: The Manassa Mauler (University of Illinois Press 1979), in which he documents the whole Dempsey-Wills situation at pages 141-148 and 213-219.

[Robinson]

I shall have a look at that, thanks for that.

I realise it is never that simple. Not much in life is.

Thanks again

[Robinson]

Yancey
What made you lose interest mate?

[yancey]

Yancey
What made you lose interest mate?

I started losing real interest when there started to be multiple champions in the same weight class, too many weight classes, and too many alphabet organizations making a mockery of a grand sport like boxing.

It seems to me a lot of this garbage started happening in the the '70s. Looking back, I remember being disappointed around the start of the Holmes era when it seems like he had a piece of the title, whilst someone else of lower quality had another piece. My real interest starting waning maybe a little later than 1975, maybe more like 1978.

I got a little excited again when Tyson came on the scene, but was disappointed when he dumped Rooney and regressed as a fighter.

Is is too much to ask to have one champion per division, maybe 8 total divisions, one universally recognized ranking list, and one governing body?

Dreaming, aren't I?

My primary interest in boxing still lies in the old days, and less on what is currently happening, though it will be rekindled once the next exciting heavyweight enters the scene.

[Robinson]

I grew up with a grandfather that loved the sport and after he died I discovered his old beta cassetes of fights and grew to love them. Was excited by the 1990s when I was teen, but in the last few years maybe 2003 I have spent most of my time in the past.

Too many good fights of yesteryear to catch up on before I can under stand or appreciate the confusion of todays world of boxing.

I can see how you got dis illusioned...but yet here you are :) still keeping the sport alive for guys like me.

[zslayton]

I don't see Norton beating a prime Ali. He gave an older Ali that was past his prime a fit, but a young, motivated, Ali with lots to prove would box Nortons ears off.

Holyfield is my favorite fighter ever, but I don't see him beatin Ali on any night. Movers give Holyfield problems, as do slicksters, and guys that have a great jab and show angles. Ali would cut him to pieces or at least swell those eyes closed and bust him up, but I don't think he could stop a prime Holyfied and I don't see a prime Holyfield giving up. I think he comes to fight but gets outclassed.

Bowe is huge, no doubt about it, but he would only have a punchers chance I think no matter how skilled a big man he is/was. Ali was hit by bigger punchers who coulding put him out so Bowes power wouldn't be a factor. What would be is his conditioning. Ali would use movement and that jab followed with just enough sting behind it to frustrate Bowe and make him do something dirty or just look for a way out. Bowe left all his heart in the ring with Evander on those 3 nights they fought.

Frazier........well...........he did beat the closest thing to a prime Ali that we got to see. Could he do it prime for prime. I think so, but not more than 50% of the time.

I actually think if you are going pick fighters from history that would have the best shot at beating Ali your best bets are Larry Holmes, Joe Frazier, Mike Tyson, and Joe Louis. I think Holmes is bigger with a better jab and would be able to win that fight on most nights. I think Frazier is just a bull dog and he and Ali brought out the best in each other so any time they would meet it would be a war and it would be anyones fight. I think Tyson would either knock Ali out in the first 4 rounds or he'd get slapped around from round 5-12 and lose a decision. Before the haters come out, and blast that theory apart, I am not a big Tyson fan, I just think Tyson with Rooney in his corner and at the beginning of his reign was one of the top guys in the history of the division and would have done well against any heavy (for 4 rounds). Then we have Joe Louis. I think Joe could get knocked out but could also knock out Ali. I don't think he could box with Ali for 12 rounds though as I think Ali was to swift and slick for Joe. Joe, like Tyson would have to catch Ali with something.

[Cap]

Holmes beat a good Ali? Not a chance. The big goof made his name beating that other big goof Rosemary Clooney. Looked bad against the few decent fighters he faced. Lost to Ken Norton.

Gene Tunney would have a better chance than Holmes.

Cap