How would Frazier do in this era?

[Trainer Monkey]

My point is,is elusivness and his work rate would make the difference.The only two guys who could really time him out in his prime were Ali and Foreman,two all time greats. Todays heavys are way more plodding and methodical then the guys from the 60's and 70's,a guy like Frazier would give them fits

[John Galt]

More plodding than George Foreman?

[Goodnight, Irene]

More plodding than George Foreman?

Foreman was excellent at cutting off the ring. You're a fool

[John Galt]

GI, I don't want to embarrass you by asking things that you probably don't understand but have heard, but when did Foreman impress you with his ability to "cut off the ring?" Did he cut if off on Frazier? What exactly is meant by cutting off the ring? Did Foreman impress you with his ability to catch up with Jimmy Young?

[Trainer Monkey]

More plodding than George Foreman?

Foreman was excellent at cutting off the ring. You're a fool

Actually it was one of the things he did best,he'd take the center of the ring and fiigure out not where you were,but were you were going,and George would be waiting for you when you got there.
And no,a Prime Foreman does not define plodder as much as half of the current heavy weights,who throw nothing but BS jabs while they sit down on a big punch,at least Foreman threw a legit jab

[John Galt]

trainer monkey, when did Foreman impress you with his jab? Was Foreman effective when he "figured out" where Ali was going? How about with Jimmy Young? Do you think Foreman needed to "figure out" where Norton, Frazier, Chuvalo, and Lyle would be?

[Trainer Monkey]

trainer monkey, when did Foreman impress you with his jab? Was Foreman effective when he "figured out" where Ali was going? How about with Jimmy Young? Do you think Foreman needed to "figure out" where Norton, Frazier, Chuvalo, and Lyle would be?

Ron Lyle was a very good fighter,and Foremans jab was better then eithe Klitschko,and dont even get me started on Valuev,all of them only throw the jab as a distraction so they can time out a big punch,they dont put an ounce of power behind it

[John Galt]

What does any of that have to do with what I asked you? I believe you might be surprised how much power is behind the jabs of the Klitschkos and Valueev when they want to throw a hard jab. Jabs are thrown at different times for different reasons. Sometimes the jab is used to distract or blind an opponent so the the following right can land. Jabs are not always thrown hard.

Can you give the examples of Foreman cutting off the ring effectively? Do you think he had to look for and cut off the ring to get to Chuvalo, Lyle, Frazier, Norton?

Are you just quoting something you read in a Hauser book or heard Merchant say?

[Collins2000]

What does any of that have to do with what I asked you? I believe you might be surprised how much power is behind the jabs of the Klitschkos and Valueev when they want to throw a hard jab. Jabs are thrown at different times for different reasons. Sometimes the jab is used to distract or blind an opponent so the the following right can land. Jabs are not always thrown hard.

Can you give the examples of Foreman cutting off the ring effectively? Do you think he had to look for and cut off the ring to get to Chuvalo, Lyle, Frazier, Norton?

Are you just quoting something you read in a Hauser book or heard Merchant say?

Galt, old buddy.

What is it about Valuev that has got you so excited?

Is it his awesome combination punching?

Maybe his speed of foot?

His amazing defensive wizardy, perhaps?

His skill at "milling on the retreat", as the old timers called it?

Or is it his hirsute qualities that have caught your eye as a connoisseur?

[Robinson]

I dont think Foreman's ability to cut of the ring was the
best ever. He seemed to be able to do it at tmes, while
other times he would follow the opponent. He did this
against Peralta, Ali, Young, Ledoux. He would cut well
and then follow.

The better fighters managed to keep moving and win,
while those not so good ones were prey to his raw power.

Foreman had a good and hard jab, but I think it is a diffferent
one to a Klitschko. Vitali is some what consistent with it,
Foreman was more menacing with it against smaller prey.

Valuev through sheer size and mass makes for an interesting
opponent. For a truely big man he has good skills, almost
a one armed fighter as he seems to struggle to bring that
right hand to bear.

Really Really big guys like Valuev have their own sets of problems
as do really really smaller guys. Each has qualities and weaknesses,
but even an average skilled guy who is that size is hard to face
in the boxing ring.

I personally feel that Foreman left himself open to a great degree
as a young man. Ali saw this, and with his sharp shots he managed
to over come the mythic and very real dangers of Foreman.
The cross defence and punching variations Foreman would display
as an older man suited him a great deal.

[Trainer Monkey]

What does any of that have to do with what I asked you? I believe you might be surprised how much power is behind the jabs of the Klitschkos and Valueev when they want to throw a hard jab. Jabs are thrown at different times for different reasons. Sometimes the jab is used to distract or blind an opponent so the the following right can land. Jabs are not always thrown hard.

Can you give the examples of Foreman cutting off the ring effectively? Do you think he had to look for and cut off the ring to get to Chuvalo, Lyle, Frazier, Norton?

Are you just quoting something you read in a Hauser book or heard Merchant say?

No I wouldnt be,all three throw their jabs going away,the jab barely even gets there,its a time buyer,Foreman threw his coming forward,it meant buisness

[John Galt]

Galt, old buddy.

What is it about Valuev that has got you so excited?

Is it his awesome combination punching?

Maybe his speed of foot?

His amazing defensive wizardy, perhaps?

His skill at "milling on the retreat", as the old timers called it?

Or is it his hirsute qualities that have caught your eye as a connoisseur?

Collins, I never noticed Valueev's hirsute qualities. Apparently you have. As a connoisseur of men do you prefer that or do you like the smooth, shaved look?

If Foreman had been 6-0, 195, do you think he would have beaten Frazier, Norton, Lyle, etc.?

Foreman was a big plodding guy who over powered smaller men. If Foreman had been the size of Jerry Quarry, he would have been a club fighter at best.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Foreman, apparently, couldn't jab, either. Galt is comedy central, currently

I wonder how he scored Ali-Norton II.

[John Galt]

GI, I don't want to embarrass you by asking things that you probably don't understand but have heard, but when did Foreman impress you with his ability to "cut off the ring?" Did he cut if off on Frazier? Did he have to cut the ring against Norton, Chuvalo, Lyle? What exactly is meant by cutting off the ring? Did Foreman impress you with his ability to catch up with Jimmy Young?

GI, while you are showing your knowledge of boxing, why don't you explain what makes a good jab? Give the mechanics of the jab and tell us how Foreman used or didn't use them. If you can't do that, you probably have no idea whether a boxer had a good jab or not. You probably are regurgitating something you read in a book by Sugar, or Hauser or some other know nothing.

[Goodnight, Irene]

GI, I don't want to embarrass you by asking things that you probably don't understand but have heard, but when did Foreman impress you with his ability to "cut off the ring?" Did he cut if off on Frazier? Did he have to cut the ring against Norton, Chuvalo, Lyle? What exactly is meant by cutting off the ring? Did Foreman impress you with his ability to catch up with Jimmy Young?

GI, while you are showing your knowledge of boxing, why don't you explain what makes a good jab? Give the mechanics of the jab and tell us how Foreman used or didn't use them. If you can't do that, you probably have no idea whether a boxer had a good jab or not. You probably are regurgitating something you read in a book by Sugar, or Hauser or some other know nothing.

Why would I waste my timer engaging in an attempt at meaningful discussion on the subject of Boxing with you?

You're in the wrong sport. Try your hand at something you can begin to comprehend

[John Galt]

GI, I knew you couldn't and I knew that you had no knowledge of boxing fundamentals/basics. I wanted to make sure that you were as clueless as I thought. You confirmed it, thanks.

GI, you need to confine your discussions of boxing to other Hauser, Mailer, Sugar readers. That way you won't get challenged on your knowlege of boxing fundamentals. You can just breathlessly discuss the greatness of certain old timers with other breathless, unquestioning, hero worshippers.

Sorry that I offend you, but I don't read that crap so I don't know all of the correct assumptions that I am supposed to make about old timers. When I look at the 70s Foreman on video, his speed, and ring generalship escape me. If I read more of the books you read maybe I would stop believing what I see and start believing what Hauser, Sugar and others tell me to see?

[Goodnight, Irene]

Simply beautiful, John. For mine, yours is a much more amusing game than Broughton's. Your sincerity in the face of your own absurdities is living proof unintentional comedy is still the best brand of knee-slapper. I always get the feeling Broughton is enjoying ruffling feathers, but you, you're a different kettle of fish, aren't you?

The importance of being earnest, as written by John Galt

[dempseyfire]

JG is making himself look worse here than I ever could. Did Foreman cut off the ring vs Norton? If you can't see the answer is 'yes', your ignorance of boxing is worse than previously imagined . And yes Foreman did impress me vs Young by doing what the likes of Norton,Lyle,Shavers in the rematch couldn't do and that's have Young extremely close to a KO loss in the 7th round. Foreman-Young was also a very close fight despite a dehyrated George peteringout badly in the late rounds, only the 12th round KD gave Young a one pt victory on my scorecard.

Foreman had one of the best jabs ever. He threw it with full force and snap, from the shoulder and coming foreward unlike Lewis and Wlad who often threw(throw) their jabs while their lefts are already well extended, negating its power, as well as not stepping into their jabs (although when Wlad does step in it's a great weapon for him) Foreman also had a beautiful hard uppercut with either hand, which is the punch he beat Frazier with, and a punch both Klitschkos don't even have in their arsenal (Vitali at times throws a quasi hook/uppercut that really lacks the torque George had).

And hell, you want to make the extremely durable Foreman into a club fighter if he's 6 ft . . .what would glass-chinned, left hand extended, backing straight up with his chin in the air Wladimir be at 6 ft? Jack Dempsey??

[hhaehre]

GI, When I look at the 70s Foreman on video, his speed, and ring generalship escape me. If I read more of the books you read maybe I would stop believing what I see and start believing what Hauser, Sugar and others tell me to see?

I don't think anyone ever said that Foreman was fast. As far as ring generalship goes I'd say he was effective. He was able to get to everyone he fought including Ali and Young. He did not always look pretty like Joe Louis but can you argue with the results ?
As for his jab, you have to concede that it was a very effective weapon for him throughout his long career. Again it was not pretty like the Louis jab or snappy like the Holmes jab but imo it was just as good. Was the Foreman jab technically sound ? Who cares, it got the job done, isn't that what matters ?

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

I don't think anyone ever said that Foreman was fast. As far as ring generalship goes I'd say he was effective. He was able to get to everyone he fought including Ali and Young. He did not always look pretty like Joe Louis but can you argue with the results ?
As for his jab, you have to concede that it was a very effective weapon for him throughout his long career. Again it was not pretty like the Louis jab or snappy like the Holmes jab but imo it was just as good. Was the Foreman jab technically sound ? Who cares, it got the job done, isn't that what matters ?

- Now we're back to some valid points. Foreman was very effective in both careers. Every fighter has weaknesses just like every fighter has strengths, so careers are based on a blend of attributes against another blend of attributes they come up against in the ring.

Foreman was not a slow man either of foot or of hand. He was about average speed, but fast for a big man. The ugly little truth of boxing is it ain't never been about speed, it's been about timing, and George had timing oozing out of his every pore. Whenever he lacked timing in the beginning of a bout, he adjusted and found his timing.

However, like Wlad, he had some unusual stamina issues, perhaps related to his trainers drying him out before a bout. Hard to say absent authenticated training regimens, but something is off when you're almost capped by little Jimmy Young. He was ready to do the Wlad keel-over before the KD even happened.

His jab and overall boxing skills demonstrated were inconsistent because there was no need to use the jab if you can walk out and bomb out a Frazier or Norton or most everyone else with long arcing hooks. That's what his trainers and managers wanted, and we are all creatures of comfort who generally repeat what works and pays us best. It's silly to challenge that rain slicked curve at 40 just to show you have the car and skills to manage it absent any compelling threat that would force you into it at speed and boxing is a dangerous sport.

Getting back to the thread header that everyone ignores, Frazier does fine as a heavy today, at least as good as Mr. E. H. Field whom I would pick a natural 205 Frazier to KO. After all, Joe did have a much better "cruiser" record than Mr. Field, and Joe on Mr. Field's vitamins would be a scary fright to behold.

[Trainer Monkey]

Galt, old buddy.

What is it about Valuev that has got you so excited?

Is it his awesome combination punching?

Maybe his speed of foot?

His amazing defensive wizardy, perhaps?

His skill at "milling on the retreat", as the old timers called it?

Or is it his hirsute qualities that have caught your eye as a connoisseur?

Collins, I never noticed Valueev's hirsute qualities. Apparently you have. As a connoisseur of men do you prefer that or do you like the smooth, shaved look?

If Foreman had been 6-0, 195, do you think he would have beaten Frazier, Norton, Lyle, etc.?

Foreman was a big plodding guy who over powered smaller men. If Foreman had been the size of Jerry Quarry, he would have been a club fighter at best.

That may the stupidest thing ever posted,ever
If Foreman was 6'0" 195 he would have been faster naturally
If wishes were horses,beggars would ride

[Collins2000]

Galt, old buddy.

What is it about Valuev that has got you so excited?

Is it his awesome combination punching?

Maybe his speed of foot?

His amazing defensive wizardy, perhaps?

His skill at "milling on the retreat", as the old timers called it?

Or is it his hirsute qualities that have caught your eye as a connoisseur?

Collins, I never noticed Valueev's hirsute qualities. Apparently you have. As a connoisseur of men do you prefer that or do you like the smooth, shaved look?

If Foreman had been 6-0, 195, do you think he would have beaten Frazier, Norton, Lyle, etc.?

Foreman was a big plodding guy who over powered smaller men. If Foreman had been the size of Jerry Quarry, he would have been a club fighter at best.

Galt, old buddy.

Tell me again what aspiring boxers can learn from watching Valuev in action.

You believe him to be a far more formidable fighter than Foreman.

What is it that he does so much better?

[John Galt]

DF, was Norton moving around the ring against Foreman so that his movement had to be cut off? Are we talking about the "fleet footed" Norton who always dragged his right leg and got bombed whenever he backed up? That is like saying that Holmes effectively cut off the ring on Tex Cobb. Do you even know what cutting off the ring means.

[Trainer Monkey]

DF, was Norton moving around the ring against Foreman so that his movement had to be cut off? Are we talking about the "fleet footed" Norton who always dragged his right leg and got bombed whenever he backed up? That is like saying that Holmes effectively cut off the ring on Tex Cobb. Do you even know what cutting off the ring means.

Cooney tried to run for it,worked out real well for him

[dempseyfire]

DF, was Norton moving around the ring against Foreman so that his movement had to be cut off? Are we talking about the "fleet footed" Norton who always dragged his right leg and got bombed whenever he backed up? That is like saying that Holmes effectively cut off the ring on Tex Cobb. Do you even know what cutting off the ring means.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=At8h-yqUPWU