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Carlos Palomino vs Mando Muniz

Harry "Kid" Matthews vs Rocky Marciano

kikibalt wrote:"Show me a fighter whose undefeated and I'll show you a fighter who hasn't fought anybody." --Whitey Bimstein, legendary boxing trainer.

Did Whitey forget a certain fellow named Rocky Marciano?

raylawpc wrote:

kikibalt wrote:"Show me a fighter whose undefeated and I'll show you a fighter who hasn't fought anybody." --Whitey Bimstein, legendary boxing trainer.

Did Whitey forget a certain fellow named Rocky Marciano?

Rocky Marciano: Is He a Top 5 All Time Heavyweight?

By Monte D. Cox

"Show me a fighter whose undefeated and I'll show you a fighter who hasn't fought anybody." --Whitey Bimstein, legendary boxing trainer.

In the 2005 IBRO (International Boxing Research Organization) polling of its members, most of who are authoritative historians with research backgrounds or boxing writers, Rocky Marciano was rated # 5 amongst the celebrated heavyweights of history. A couple of members remarked their surprise at Marciano’s high rating. Obviously a solid majority thought highly enough of Marciano for him to finish in the top five. How good was Rocky? Was he an all time great? Is he overrated as some contend or underrated by the majority of younger modern fights fans? Is he a deserving top 5 all time heavyweight champion?

Rocky Marciano is the only unbeaten and untied boxing champion in history. 49-0 is his legacy. Of his 49 wins 43 came by way of knockout. His knockout percentage of 87.75 is the highest among all heavyweight champions. He is 7-0 in title fights. On his accomplishments alone he deserves consideration for a spot among the ten best heavyweights ever. To determine whether he deserves a top 5 spot one needs to look closely at Rocky the fighter and his record.

One of the biggest knocks on Marciano is that he was small for a heavyweight when compared to more modern heavyweight punchers. Rocky’s physical stats were 5' 10 1/4" and 184-185 pounds in his prime, which is fairly small. His reach was 68” - 4 inches shorter than Floyd Mayweather, for example. Despite his lack of size Marciano was a great pound for pound puncher. He was physically strong with superb tendon strength and he never entered the ring in less than top condition.

Rocky brought punching power, a high work rate, endurance, durability, excellent conditioning and the will to win into every fight. He also carried his power into the late rounds, which is a short list of punchers of which only Joe Louis and Joe Frazier definitely belong with Marciano. Rocky came inside low in his crouch to get underneath his opponents and was not as easy a target to hit as some fans think. He was unceasing in his firing of his hammer blows at his opponent’s, although he lacked punching accuracy. Rocky was an “anywhere hitter” but anywhere he hit, he hurt. Rocky was known to bust the blood vessels in his opponent’s arms as they covered up trying to protect themselves from the onslaught. He nearly clubbed Carmine Vingo to death; he survived but was never able to fight again.

Ring Magazine founder Nat Fleischer wrote that in terms of boxing ability Marciano was "crude, wild swinging, awkward, and missed heavily. In his bout with light heavyweight champion Archie Moore, for example, he missed almost two-thirds of the fifty odd punches he tossed when he had Archie against the ropes, a perfect target for the kill." However, in fairness to Marciano, he was a stubby armed swarming style fighter, not a boxing master. He certainly wasn’t in there to outbox anyone. He had to get inside and let his hands go, and that is what he did. He got the results that were required of him as his high knockout percentage attests to.

Since Marciano’s claim to greatness is based largely on his unbeaten record one must put his quality of opponents under the microscope. It is true that most of Rocky’s best opponents were past their prime when he faced them. Jersey Joe Walcott was 38-39 years old, Ezzard Charles was 32-33 and was at his peak at light-heavyweight and 175 pound champion Archie Moore was 42. One of the best men Marciano defeated prior to winning the title was Rex Layne. Layne lost often when he stepped up in competition. Another of the top contenders Marciano faced was Lee Savold whose career record was 89-37-3, hardly inspiring. Rocky came up in one of the weakest periods in heavyweight history, in fact the only era that is weaker than the early mid 50's amongst heavyweights is the current crop.

Joe Louis was the biggest name on Marciano’s resume, but he was 37 years old and had lost much. By the time of their fight the once legendary Louis had “long since lost his once devastating punch” as Nat Fleischer wrote. This is true because Louis depended greatly on speed, timing and sense of distance for his hitting power. His lost reflexes robbed him of his explosiveness and therefore his punching power. Louis still was a solid fighter when Marciano beat him because he was fundamentally sound, but he lacked the speed and power that he once possessed.

In a comparison Joe Louis fought much better competition than did Rocky Marciano. Marciano never fought the big 200 pounds plus hitters and giants that Louis did. The only top notch heavyweights that Marciano defeated who weighed over 200 pounds were a fat Don Cockell who weighed 205, and Joe Louis in his last fight. Louis, on the other hand, defeated Primo Carnera who was 6’6” 260 pounds, Max Baer 6’ 3” 210 pounds, Buddy Baer 6’5” 237 pounds, and Abe Simon 6’4” 260 pounds. Louis was at his absolute best against the big men because of his speed and explosive power. Rocky’s chin was never tested against a really big first tier heavyweight puncher. The two best punchers that he did fight, Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore both put him on the canvas. Marciano would be favored over the giants that Louis defeated, but he simply never faced anyone of such size and strength in his career. Could Marciano make 25 successful title defenses against Louis competition? Possibly, but he would have struggled more doing so. He made only 6 title defenses and decided to rest on his laurels.

When looking at Marciano’s opponents one must ask the question “Is there one person that Marciano beat that Joe Frazier would not beat?” The answer is clearly no. Joe Frazier would have little trouble with Marciano’s opponents and would easily have gone 49-0 against them. Frazier’s only career defeats were to Muhammad Ali and George Foreman. How would Marciano have fared against Frazier’s opponents? Marciano would be an underdog to Ali and would likely lose a decision. Ali was more susceptible to a left hook, Frazier’s bread and butter punch, than he was to a right hand, which was Rocky’s best shot. Cus D’Amato once said that, “No swarming heavyweight who ever lived could beat George Foreman coming to him.” Marciano would have had the same trouble trying to get inside George’s long arms and massive uppercuts, as did the bobbing and weaving Frazier. It seems highly unlikely that Marciano could overcome the freakish power of the much larger Foreman in a slugfest. Frazier holds a win over Muhammad Ali and defeated other quality heavyweights such as Jerry Quarry who were superior to most of Marciano's competition. Had the two all time greats switched era's Frazier would have been 49-0 and Marciano would likely have had losses to Ali and Foreman on his record.

Who were the lineal champions since Jack Johnson who would not be favored over Marciano’s competition? Jess Willard, Jack Sharkey, Max Schmeling, Primo Carnera, Max Baer, Jim Braddock, Floyd Patterson, Leon Spinks, Mike Spinks, and Hasim Rahman is a short list in the nearly 100 years of boxing history since Johnson.

John Durant author of The Heavyweight Champions wrote in 1971 (pg 123,) “Critics do not rate Rocky with the great ones, like Jeffries, Johnson, Dempsey, Tunney, and Louis. He never faced topnotch fighters like they did. It was not Rocky’s fault, of course, that there was not much talent when he was fighting. He fought them all and that is what a champion is supposed to do.”

Rocky’s unbeaten record is certainly not without tarnish. Many believe that Marciano actually did lose to Roland LaStarza in their first fight but got a gift decision. Jesse Abramson, boxing writer for the New York Daily Herald called it a “paper thin and exceedingly odd decision.” And it was “universally condemned around ringside as a miscarriage of justice”, according to newspaper reports. Even a member of the New England Press Corp, who would be inclined to favor Marciano in the New York bout against LaStarza, said it was a “dubious decision.” More than 50 years later LaStarza was incredulous of the decision, “I won that fight,” he maintained. In the New York Herald Tribune, Mar 25, 1950, LaStarza said, “The fact is his manager Al Weill was matchmaker for the Garden. I would say that had a lot to do with the decision.”

After the LaStarza fight Marciano's handlers were afraid to put him in with anyone who could fight. His next opponent was Eldridge Eatman who had lost 8 of his last 9 fights. Tiger Ted Lowry who had a career record of 60-54-9, went the distance with Marciano. Others such as Harold (Kid) Mitchell, Art Henri, and Willis Red Applegate all had losing records. It is little wonder that Rex Layne was a 9-5 favorite over Marciano when Rocky finally stepped up in competition. It should be noted that Layne was no world beater, like most of Marciano's top opponents Layne weighed well under 200 pounds and he finished with a career record of 50-17-3.

Today it is common to see Marciano rated over Jack Dempsey on many all time lists, mostly because of his undefeated record. Such views are completely revisionist when compared to those who actually saw them both fight. Anything that Marciano could do Jack Dempsey could do better. Dempsey was nearly as strong a puncher with his right, stronger with his vaunted left hook, had much greater hand speed, was more maneuverable, a better boxer, had a better jab, was more cut resistant, was a faster starter and was just as tough and durable.

Consider that in the Dec. 1962 Ring magazine poll of 40 boxing experts it was Jack Dempsey that was rated the # 1 Heavyweight of all time with Joe Louis 2nd, Jack Johnson 3rd and Marciano finishing a distant 7th, way behind Dempsey. If he was considered 7th in 1962 how does he propel to the top 5, when since then we have had Muhammad Ali who faced much tougher competition, the big power hitting George Foreman, Larry Holmes who made 20 title defenses, the bigger, faster and more powerful Mike Tyson, and the giant Lennox Lewis who at 6’5” 245 pounds would enjoy a 60 pound weight advantage over Marciano? This is a key point. Nat Fleischer rated Marciano at # 10, Charley Rose rated him at # 8, McCallum's survey of old-timers had him at # 9. No major historian who saw Maricano in their lifetime thought he was a top 5 all time heavyweight and 50 years have passed since Rocky retired as champion.

The caliber of opponents is most important in evaluating greatness. Tommy Morrison and Roy Jones, for example, looked great against lesser opponents but pitted against the top men of their class, their shortcomings in other assets were exposed and their ability was offset by other attributes that better opponents of theirs possessed. Marciano was never so tested because his level of competition was so weak.

Rocky Marciano was a great, but limited slugger who is admired for his toughness, endurance, conditioning and punching power. When rated against the other all time greats he compares to them in punching power only. He lacked the fundamental skills of Joe Louis, the quickness on attack of Jack Dempsey, or the quality of opponents of Joe Frazier. Marciano’s place can be argued amongst the top 10, but top 5 seems too high due to his lack of competitors. If Rocky were 48-1, he likely would not make the cut at all.

There is a big difference between saying Rocky isn't a top five all-time heavyweight and saying he "hasn't fought anybody. . ."

Whitey must have said that before Rocky came along.

I wrote this a few years ago in a discuusion about Muhammed Ali and Rocky Marciano. It seems to fit with the article posted by Frank.........

On Rocky Marciano and Muhammad Ali....
It's probably not fair to rate one boxer against another boxer from another era, but it's something all fight fans do, and we almost always favor the fighter that was in their prime when we were reaching our prime, and we are all biased in one way or another, be it style, personality, weight class or race. I am admittedly, one of the guiltiest.

I think Rocky Marciano was a hell of a fighter and he dominated the heavies during his reign as champion, and retired as the only undefeated heavyweight champion in history. As far as heart goes there is no one in boxing history that has surpassed Marciano. That much is beyond dispute. What is in dispute is whether he was the best heavy ever. I don't think so. Was he better than Muhhammad Ali? In my opinion, no. Would he have given Ali problems, sure he would have, but in the end Ali would have been too much for him. Marciano was a plodder that averaged 189lbs, and would not have had the ability to hit Ali, who averaged 230 lbs, the way he did an old Joe Louis, or Jersey Joe Walcott, who were both years past their primes when he fought them, as were most of the more recognizable names that he fought. I'm not trying to take anything away from Rocky, but I am trying to compare what he did, versus what Ali accomplished. The fighters that Ali beat were in their primes when he did so. He beat Sonny Liston (twice), Joe Frazier (twice)and George Foreman when they were in their primes, both Liston and Foreman were champions when Ali beat them. He beat Ken Norton (twice), Ernie Shavers, Ron Lyle, tough as nails Jerry Quarry (there were none tougher), Light heavy champ Bob Foster, Cleveland Williams and several other good, if not great fighters. Look at the list of fighters on his record and tell me Ali could not take a punch. He did all this while not being allowed to fight during his prime years. Whether you like Ali or hate him, you have to give him his just due.

As for Ali being punch drunk. Not true. I have seen several punch drunk and near punch drunk fighters up close, including Jerry and Mike Quarry. Whatever else is wrong with Ali his mind is a sharp as a tack.

Private Richard Chinnen, Japanese-American boxing instructor
at Camp Shelby, says a ten round bout was nothing like this as
he arrives at the water sack after a forced march in the humid
Mississippi atmosphere. Chinnen was formerly AAU bantam weight
champion of Hawaii. He came to the United States in 1940 and
volunteered for duty with the combat team. The 442nd combat
team at Camp Shelby is composed entirely of Americans of Japanese
descent who volunteered for services in the armed forces. This unit
of approximately 8000 men is undergoing intensive training in all branches
of combat duty, and they are looking forward with eagerness to actual
services at the front. --
Photographer: Mace, Charles E. -- Camp Shelby, Mississippi. 7/?/43

kikibalt wrote:

Frank, what paper did that come from? Can you e-mail an electronic copy to me? Thanks.

(BTW, Jeff and Johnson were not sitting thst close to one another in the actual photo. They cropped out the three or four guys sitting between them.)

Henry Armstrong vs Jimmy Garrison

Randyman wrote:I wrote this a few years ago in a discuusion about Muhammed Ali and Rocky Marciano. It seems to fit with the article posted by Frank.........

On Rocky Marciano and Muhammad Ali....
It's probably not fair to rate one boxer against another boxer from another era, but it's something all fight fans do, and we almost always favor the fighter that was in their prime when we were reaching our prime, and we are all biased in one way or another, be it style, personality, weight class or race. I am admittedly, one of the guiltiest.

I think Rocky Marciano was a hell of a fighter and he dominated the heavies during his reign as champion, and retired as the only undefeated heavyweight champion in history. As far as heart goes there is no one in boxing history that has surpassed Marciano. That much is beyond dispute. What is in dispute is whether he was the best heavy ever. I don't think so. Was he better than Muhhammad Ali? In my opinion, no. Would he have given Ali problems, sure he would have, but in the end Ali would have been too much for him. Marciano was a plodder that averaged 189lbs, and would not have had the ability to hit Ali, who averaged 230 lbs, the way he did an old Joe Louis, or Jersey Joe Walcott, who were both years past their primes when he fought them, as were most of the more recognizable names that he fought. I'm not trying to take anything away from Rocky, but I am trying to compare what he did, versus what Ali accomplished. The fighters that Ali beat were in their primes when he did so. He beat Sonny Liston (twice), Joe Frazier (twice)and George Foreman when they were in their primes, both Liston and Foreman were champions when Ali beat them. He beat Ken Norton (twice), Ernie Shavers, Ron Lyle, tough as nails Jerry Quarry (there were none tougher), Light heavy champ Bob Foster, Cleveland Williams and several other good, if not great fighters. Look at the list of fighters on his record and tell me Ali could not take a punch. He did all this while not being allowed to fight during his prime years. Whether you like Ali or hate him, you have to give him his just due.

As for Ali being punch drunk. Not true. I have seen several punch drunk and near punch drunk fighters up close, including Jerry and Mike Quarry. Whatever else is wrong with Ali his mind is a sharp as a tack.

I don't necessarily disagree with anything you wrote, Randy, except I'm not so sure Rocky "would not have had the ability to hit Ali." If he could hit cuties like Charles and LaStarza - to name a few - I think he could have landed on Ali. If Chuvalo and Bonavena could land on Ali (and they did), so could Rocky. Whether he could land on him enough and with maximum effect - well, that's an entirely different question . . .

I have to believe Whitey Bimstein made his comment in the late 1940s before Marciano came on the scene. If so, Monte Cox took the remark completely out of context as applies to Marciano, and misused it.

raylawpc wrote:

Randyman wrote:I wrote this a few years ago in a discuusion about Muhammed Ali and Rocky Marciano. It seems to fit with the article posted by Frank.........

On Rocky Marciano and Muhammad Ali....
It's probably not fair to rate one boxer against another boxer from another era, but it's something all fight fans do, and we almost always favor the fighter that was in their prime when we were reaching our prime, and we are all biased in one way or another, be it style, personality, weight class or race. I am admittedly, one of the guiltiest.

I think Rocky Marciano was a hell of a fighter and he dominated the heavies during his reign as champion, and retired as the only undefeated heavyweight champion in history. As far as heart goes there is no one in boxing history that has surpassed Marciano. That much is beyond dispute. What is in dispute is whether he was the best heavy ever. I don't think so. Was he better than Muhhammad Ali? In my opinion, no. Would he have given Ali problems, sure he would have, but in the end Ali would have been too much for him. Marciano was a plodder that averaged 189lbs, and would not have had the ability to hit Ali, who averaged 230 lbs, the way he did an old Joe Louis, or Jersey Joe Walcott, who were both years past their primes when he fought them, as were most of the more recognizable names that he fought. I'm not trying to take anything away from Rocky, but I am trying to compare what he did, versus what Ali accomplished. The fighters that Ali beat were in their primes when he did so. He beat Sonny Liston (twice), Joe Frazier (twice)and George Foreman when they were in their primes, both Liston and Foreman were champions when Ali beat them. He beat Ken Norton (twice), Ernie Shavers, Ron Lyle, tough as nails Jerry Quarry (there were none tougher), Light heavy champ Bob Foster, Cleveland Williams and several other good, if not great fighters. Look at the list of fighters on his record and tell me Ali could not take a punch. He did all this while not being allowed to fight during his prime years. Whether you like Ali or hate him, you have to give him his just due.

As for Ali being punch drunk. Not true. I have seen several punch drunk and near punch drunk fighters up close, including Jerry and Mike Quarry. Whatever else is wrong with Ali his mind is a sharp as a tack.

I don't necessarily disagree with anything you wrote, Randy, except I'm not so sure Rocky "would not have had the ability to hit Ali." If he could hit cuties like Charles and LaStarza - to name a few - I think he could have landed on Ali. If Chuvalo and Bonavena could land on Ali (and they did), so could Rocky. Whether he could land on him enough and with maximum effect - well, that's an entirely different question . . .

I have to believe Whitey Bimstein made his comment in the late 1940s before Marciano came on the scene. If so, Monte Cox took the remark completely out of context as applies to Marciano, and misused it.

I was re reading what I wrote and I 100% agree with you. I believe that I meant to write "hurt". Marciano would have indeed been able to hit Ali. I just don't think he would have hurt him enough to do real damage and stop him. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. I am a firm believer in the "On any given night...." rule but Ali wins this.

Randy

FORMER MIDDLEWEIGHT CONTENDER TONY LICATA
By Jim Amato


He was one of the better middleweights of the 1970’s. The smooth boxing Licata turned professional in 1969 and was undefeated in his first 52 fights. ( 49-0-3 ). During that streak he defeated the likes of Mike Pusateri, Luis Vinales, Jose Chirino, Art Hernandez, Denny Moyer, Emile Griffith, Cubby ” Top Cat ” Jackson, Mike Baker and Vinnie Curto. He suffered his first loss in 1975 on an upset decision to Argentina’s Ramon Mendez. Tony came right back to outscore Mendez in a rematch. On June 30, 1975 Licata met another native of Argentina, the great Carlos Monzon. This was for the middleweight title and they fought at New York’s Madison Square Garden. It would be Monzon’s only appearance in the United States. Licata fought gamely but was overpowered by King Carlos in round ten.

Licata would go on to lose five more times in his career to Jean Mateo, Mike Colbert, Alan Minter, Fred Johnson and Tony Chiaverini. After the loss to Monzon he did defeat Mike Rossman, Mike Nixon and Mel Dennis. Tony retired in 1980 after 72 fights. His overall record was an outstanding 61-7-4 with 27 knockouts. He was halted on four occasions. He met four world champions. Not too long ago Tony Licata passed away. He was a world class contender in every sense of the word. May he rest in Peace.

Ring Magazine founder Nat Fleischer wrote that in terms of boxing ability Marciano was "crude, wild swinging, awkward, and missed heavily. In his bout with light heavyweight champion Archie Moore, for example, he missed almost two-thirds of the fifty odd punches he tossed when he had Archie against the ropes, a perfect target for the kill." However, in fairness to Marciano, he was a stubby armed swarming style fighter, not a boxing master. He certainly wasn’t in there to outbox anyone. He had to get inside and let his hands go, and that is what he did. He got the results that were required of him as his high knockout percentage attests to.

In all fairness, it was Nat Fleischer who also said Muhammad Ali wasn't a great fighter. Nat was one of those who believed that guys like Fitzsimmons were in the top five, and would have laid a whooping on most the contenders of the day. Not to say ol' Ruby Red couldnt handle himself against heavyweights, but he was far from being an ATG heavyweight.

Expug wrote:

Rick Farris wrote:

dagosd2000 wrote:CREEKY

The times I went to Archie Moore's ABC Boys to help around I would always look at the old guy's physical apperance. He was probably in his 70's by then.I guess I do that with all former athletes including myself. Don't get me wrong. No one's gonna put me in any Hall Of Fame,but to see the athlete grow old is the personification of the word"bittersweet."

A few years back when the Super Bowl was here in San Diego,I was invited to their party. There were a bunch of old time Hall Of Famers there. The guy that struck me was Ron Yary. Before the steroid thing ,Yary was a monster. Six foot six 270 pounds. He was the All America right tackle who busted open holes for O.J Simpson. Yary was at a table standing up signing autographs. Next to his side was a walker. After about 10 minutes he had to sit. All his strength trying to manuever his walker.

That meloncholy feeling hit me the same way when I'd look at Aechie Moore at his boys club. He looked creeky. Had a hitch in his walk. He looked shrunken a little. With the gray beard,you'd never figure him to be the KO champ of all time.

I should have known better,but I would sometimes get a little teary eyed looking at him trying to get around. Now I'm entering that time. The arthritis is sneaking in. The wear and tear of my football injuries are slowing me down and giving me pain. The bone on bone is all inside of me.

Like I said,no one is going to hang a banner with my name on it at San Diego Stadium. But when I'd look at the 'ol Mongoose,and this was 30 years ago,I wanted to protect him. I didn't want any wanna be gangster to try to lay a hand on him as he left the building walking to the parking lot.

You see, the young people don't know of these legends. Our heros. Whether it was Emile Griffith standing with his knotted up hand in front of the elevator at the Hall Of Fame Banquet saying he was lost and scared. Ron Yary bracing himself on his elbows trying to sign autographs at the Super Bowl Party. Or the 'ol Mongoose leaning on the ring ropes at his boys club mentioning that he was married five times staring out into the parking lot.

With time ,these memories will become sweeter.The bitterness dissolved away.

Roger, I know how you feel. I felt that way when I saw Raul Rojas in his wheel chair at the WBHOF banquet. I felt the same when I saw Emile Griffith, he was confused trying to locate his companion, his adopted son and caretaker. He just looked lost. Your story hits close to home. I understand what you mean when you say, "I want to protect them."

What was it that Don Fraser said to Frank Baltazar about "getting old"? By the way, good luck tomorrow.

-Rick

I know how you guys feel .Its very sad about the former great fighters physical condition.
Its tough gettin a little older and feelin the years.
The thing is though, guys this is the way of a warrior. You guys have also earned your scars and although you feel the pain on a daily basis, you will always be able to say you received them being a man.
A long time ago you guys decided to take a path that required that you step outside the comfort zone.
Here, we arent the type of people who are gonna be playing bridge at a country club in our later years.
Rog, you earned that creekiness kickin ass on a football field.Rick you had to get that nose fixed from slugging it out with great fighters.
Wear them wounds proudly my friends.
They are badges of honor.

Brian
You know they are warriors and I know also. We know that they wear their scars with honor. It's the puinks and ingrates that don't know and don't give a shit. Respect to these ass holes means nothing. Prey on my heros and you die.

BTW Thanks to all the guys that are thinking of me about my surgery tomorrow. Hope to be seeing you ,literally

HomicideHenry wrote:

Ring Magazine founder Nat Fleischer wrote that in terms of boxing ability Marciano was "crude, wild swinging, awkward, and missed heavily. In his bout with light heavyweight champion Archie Moore, for example, he missed almost two-thirds of the fifty odd punches he tossed when he had Archie against the ropes, a perfect target for the kill." However, in fairness to Marciano, he was a stubby armed swarming style fighter, not a boxing master. He certainly wasn’t in there to outbox anyone. He had to get inside and let his hands go, and that is what he did. He got the results that were required of him as his high knockout percentage attests to.

In all fairness, it was Nat Fleischer who also said Muhammad Ali wasn't a great fighter. Nat was one of those who believed that guys like Fitzsimmons were in the top five, and would have laid a whooping on most the contenders of the day. Not to say ol' Ruby Red couldnt handle himself against heavyweights, but he was far from being an ATG heavyweight.

Angelo Dundee said it best "Ali does everything wrong he just does it better than anyone else".

Randy

kikibalt wrote:FORMER MIDDLEWEIGHT CONTENDER TONY LICATA
By Jim Amato


He was one of the better middleweights of the 1970’s. The smooth boxing Licata turned professional in 1969 and was undefeated in his first 52 fights. ( 49-0-3 ). During that streak he defeated the likes of Mike Pusateri, Luis Vinales, Jose Chirino, Art Hernandez, Denny Moyer, Emile Griffith, Cubby ” Top Cat ” Jackson, Mike Baker and Vinnie Curto. He suffered his first loss in 1975 on an upset decision to Argentina’s Ramon Mendez. Tony came right back to outscore Mendez in a rematch. On June 30, 1975 Licata met another native of Argentina, the great Carlos Monzon. This was for the middleweight title and they fought at New York’s Madison Square Garden. It would be Monzon’s only appearance in the United States. Licata fought gamely but was overpowered by King Carlos in round ten.

Licata would go on to lose five more times in his career to Jean Mateo, Mike Colbert, Alan Minter, Fred Johnson and Tony Chiaverini. After the loss to Monzon he did defeat Mike Rossman, Mike Nixon and Mel Dennis. Tony retired in 1980 after 72 fights. His overall record was an outstanding 61-7-4 with 27 knockouts. He was halted on four occasions. He met four world champions. Not too long ago Tony Licata passed away. He was a world class contender in every sense of the word. May he rest in Peace.

I remember Tony Licata well. I ws sorry to hear he passed away. he had a respectable career in a tough business. Rest in peace Tony.

Randyman wrote:

While I love Marciano and Ali, that is one fight that completely boggles the mind for me. I have the SUPERFIGHT on dvd, and was amazed how well Marciano could move at 45. Every now and then, you saw glimpses of both men really trading with one another, testing eachother, but both had all the respect in the world for one another. At his best, Ali would have probably won on a TKO in the later rounds, but it would have been close as hell. I still think the Ali who fought Frazier in 1970 would lose to Marciano, but many argue against me on it. I guess that makes me an Ali hater, but truth is, I dont hate Ali, I just am a fond believer that there is truth in the middle of the two extremes: that he was impossible to defeat and won every second of his fights, or that he completely lacked the basics and outside of his speed he had nothing. Same goes for Marciano, I believe the truth is in the middle, he wasnt an unbeatable destroyer nor was he another run of the mill stumble bum without ability.

HomicideHenry wrote:

Randyman wrote:

While I love Marciano and Ali, that is one fight that completely boggles the mind for me. I have the SUPERFIGHT on dvd, and was amazed how well Marciano could move at 45. Every now and then, you saw glimpses of both men really trading with one another, testing eachother, but both had all the respect in the world for one another. At his best, Ali would have probably won on a TKO in the later rounds, but it would have been close as hell. I still think the Ali who fought Frazier in 1970 would lose to Marciano, but many argue against me on it. I guess that makes me an Ali hater, but truth is, I dont hate Ali, I just am a fond believer that there is truth in the middle of the two extremes: that he was impossible to defeat and won every second of his fights, or that he completely lacked the basics and outside of his speed he had nothing. Same goes for Marciano, I believe the truth is in the middle, he wasnt an unbeatable destroyer nor was he another run of the mill stumble bum without ability.

Henry, that is about as fair and unbiased opinion as one can make about these two.

Now here is a fight that never happened that would have been a classic (in my opinion), Roberto Duran vs Aaron Pryor.

Pryor-Duran would have made a fight. I can agree with that one.

It used to be that if you suffer a detach retina as Israel Vasquez did, even with surgery to correct it you wouldn't be allowd to fight in the state of California, Sugar Ray Leonard wasn't even allowed to spar in California after his surgery, anybody knows todays rules?

Israel Vasquez, Speaks on his Current Status, and his Future Plans With Dan Hernandez


Israel Vasquez Castaneda, born December 25, 1977 in Mexico City, Mexico, at 122 pounds, is the current Ring Magazine Super Bantamweight World Champion.. Known by the nickname of “Magnifico”, (Magnificent), Israel has lived up to his nickname with stirring battles inside the ring defeating such top-notch opponents as Oscar Larios, Jorge Eliecer Julio, and Jose Luis Valbuena. He then defeated WBO Bantamweight champion, Jjonny Gonzalez, coming back from two knockdowns in winning that title.

In his next fight, Vasquez lost WBC championship to the number one ranked bantamweight, Rafael Marquez, 37-5 (33 KO’s) when Israel was forced to forfeit the bout due to an injured nose. Vasquez regained the title via a sixth round knockout of Marquez on July 2007. This bout was named the Ring Magazine “Fight of the Year” for 2007! A third bout between these two staged in Los Angeles at the Home Depot Sports Center, ended with Vasquez overcoming a fourth round knockdown and eking out a split-decision victory. This trilogy was considered one of the best match-ups in recent years

“Magnifico” suffered a damaged eye in the last encounter with Marquez and was stripped of his WBC Junior Featherweight Championship (122 lbs.), on January 3, 2009 for nor defending his championship for a certain period of time. The WBC Interim title was promoted to actual championship status with Japanese fighter Toshiaki Nishioka, 33-4-3 (20 KO’s), being named the WBC champion when he defeated Genero Garcia, 36-7-4 (20 KO’s) on this date. Neither of these fighters has fought the caliber of fighters that Vasquez has met and defeated.

Trained by former coach of boxing legend, Marco Antonio Barrera, Rudy Perez, and trained by Hall of Fame manager Frank Espinoza, Vasquez is anxious to get back in the ring and prove that this has been a temporary setback and that he will be back stronger and sharper than ever.


DH: Have you scheduled your next fight?

Right now, we have no opponent; I’m still in the process of recovering from my injury. But I’m just trying to get better so I can get back in the ring and mix it up.

DH: When do you believe you’ll return?

We are hoping to return by June or July. I would like to fight at the Staples Center in Los Angeles, in front of my hometown fans. That would be a perfect place for my return.

DH: What does the future hold for Israel?

Right now, my main goal is to get better. But after boxing, I would love to get into broadcasting. I had a chance to do it over the summer for the Olympics and it’s something I can see myself doing in the future.

DH: You were very involved in the Fund Raiser for Genaro “Chicanito” Hernandez, to aid in his fight with cancer, are you friends?

Yes, I have known Chicanito for many years, long before I was a somebody in the sport of boxing, and along the way, he has always treated me very well. It’s truly unfortunate to see him in the shape that he is in, but I’m just trying to show my support for him and his family. I will continue to cheer him on in his fight against cancer.

DH: How do you feel about the recent events surrounding Antonio Margarito and the substance used on the gloves? Do you believe he could have that substance on his bandages and not know?

It’s unfortunate that something like that has to happen in the sport of boxing. As you know, the sport is already dangerous enough as it is. But anyone caught cheating should be punished. As far as Margarito not knowing, I’m not sure, that’s something Margarito would have to answer.

DH: How do you feel about your career and the recent stripping of your title?

I can’t complain about anything, I’m just appreciative of everything. From fans coming up to me, people wanting to do interviews, and seeing my name all over. It really humbles me and I enjoy every minute.

DH: You’ve had a long lay-off, do you feel your condition is up to par?

Yes, I do, I always come into shape, no matter what. The way that I got to the top was by fighting the best and I know no other way. As long as I’m a fighter, I will always want to fight the best. I understand that it’s been a long layoff, but others have done it. Vitali Klitschko and George Foreman are good examples.

DH: Have you added any new wrinkles to your boxing arsenal?

Well I can’t say that have added new wrinkles to my arsenal, since I have not trained as much. But what I can say is that with this long lay off it has made me hungrier than before. If people thought I was highly motivated before, they have no idea what type of motivation I have at this moment. Trust me, whomever I fight next is going to pay for this long lay off.

DH: How has your life changed by becoming a champion?

My life is pretty much the same, and I like it that way. I’m a simple guy, I may get recognized much more on the street, but to my family, I’m just dad.

DH: Who are your boxing heroes?

I admire a lot of people in the sport of boxing, but J. C. Chavez is number one to me. He was someone that I looked up to; I also admired Salvador Sanchez and Marco Antonio Barrera.

DH: Thank you for this interview, is there anything that you would like to add?

I would like to thank my fans for their support and their patience. Everywhere I go people ask me when I will make my return, and although I can’t give them an exact date yet, I can say this: When I do come back, I’m going to continue where I left off.