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Re: Boxrec Ratings - Read first before commenting on the ratings
Posted: 06 May 2009, 11:37
by conan_the_cribber
computerrank wrote:conan_the_cribber wrote:Is it possible to see the points for the p4p ratings in a nice list? I think it used to be possible from the ratings page, but it doesnt seem to possible any more. That might save some arguments when people see that the pts are so close.
cheers
conan
Conan,
... click at the weight division assigned and you will see the points ...
You know that is not what I was asking. Sure, I can navigate from Bernhard Hopkins on the p4p list, then navigate to the weight division and write down his points. Then I can go back and do that for Manny and JMM and whoever.
Or. Somewhere on the site, there is a place where I can click on p4p ratings and see the rating value for all the people on the list, so I can compare them. Shouldn't be too hard to organise, I think.
cheers
conan
Re: Boxrec Ratings - Read first before commenting on the ratings
Posted: 06 May 2009, 11:40
by JCS
DD
DD
I'm still stuck on the fact that unsanctioned bouts are at half weight.
Thailand has no commission, but only the bigger bouts get set to unsanctioned -- the rest are unknown, which gets full weight. IMO, they should just be set to full weight. Title bouts are held there, so it can't be that bad.
Re: Boxrec Ratings - Read first before commenting on the ratings
Posted: 06 May 2009, 11:55
by jujigatame
So essentially information on big fights in Thailand is considered to be less reliable than information on small fights in Thailand? Bizarre.
Re: Boxrec Ratings - Read first before commenting on the ratings
Posted: 06 May 2009, 12:07
by computerrank
might be - a better solution:
- full value: commission assigned
- half value: commission no assigned
verified - unverified - unsanctioned - doesn't seem to work
Re: Boxrec Ratings - Read first before commenting on the ratings
Posted: 06 May 2009, 12:11
by computerrank
conan_the_cribber wrote: ...
... p4p ratings and see the rating value ...
Shouldn't be too hard to organise, I think.
cheers
conan
conan,
the middle column of the top page is very small - so there is no place for the ratings points added.
Re: Boxrec Ratings - Read first before commenting on the ratings
Posted: 06 May 2009, 12:14
by JCS
computerrank wrote:might be - a better solution:
- full value: commission assigned
- half value: commission no assigned
verified - unverified - unsanctioned - doesn't seem to work
Maybe... but I am not sure there is a fair way to handle this unless all bouts are set properly.
I know title commissions often times seem corrupt, but I think most would agree that any fight involving a major belt (title fight, eliminator, etc) should always be given full weight in the ratings.
Re: Boxrec Ratings - Read first before commenting on the ratings
Posted: 06 May 2009, 12:46
by conan_the_cribber
computerrank wrote:conan_the_cribber wrote: ...
... p4p ratings and see the rating value ...
Shouldn't be too hard to organise, I think.
cheers
conan
conan,
the middle column of the top page is very small - so there is no place for the ratings points added.
It doesn't have to be on the middle column on the frontpage. I was actually thinking of the "ratings" tab and being able to see it from there. Alternatively a link under the list pointing me to a list of the top 100 or something, where I can browse to my hearts delight and there is enough screen real estate to present everything.
cheers
conan
Re: Boxrec Ratings - Read first before commenting on the ratings
Posted: 06 May 2009, 14:48
by computerrank
conan_the_cribber wrote:
p4p rating points
...
I was actually thinking of the "ratings" tab and being able to see it from there. Alternatively a link under the list pointing me to a list of the top 100 or something, where I can browse to my hearts delight and there is enough screen real estate to present everything.
cheers
conan
I fear this would be is a lot of work ... for JohnShep - as it is not to me.
Maybe you can encourage him by a PM ...
Re: Boxrec Ratings - Read first before commenting on the ratings
Posted: 06 May 2009, 18:59
by JCS
Conan, those lists are available now.
DLH is #11 :)
Venice Borkhorsor at #100
Re: Boxrec Ratings - Read first before commenting on the ratings
Posted: 07 May 2009, 01:01
by computerrank
JCS wrote:Conan, those lists are available now.
DLH is #11 :)
Venice Borkhorsor at #100
... great!
Re: Boxrec Ratings - Read first before commenting on the ratings
Posted: 07 May 2009, 06:31
by conan_the_cribber
JCS wrote:Conan, those lists are available now.
DLH is #11 :)
Venice Borkhorsor at #100
thx. STurm at 16. Yukk.
conan
Re: Boxrec Ratings - Read first before commenting on the ratings
Posted: 07 May 2009, 10:41
by computerrank
A new release is proposed to be launched:
All bouts have same weight now - independent of being verified, unverified or unsanctioned.
This is assumed to be the best way, as no minimum standard is available worldwide.
Re: Boxrec Ratings - Read first before commenting on the ratings
Posted: 07 May 2009, 12:37
by JCS
Cobwebcat wrote:
Computerrank: I don't get it Pacman is 2109 on the main rankings (way behind Hopkins) and yet your ratings here show only a slight difference. Is something not working?
CRank posted raw scores. They are then converted to divisional points in order to make the P4P list work.
Re: Boxrec Ratings - Read first before commenting on the ratings
Posted: 08 May 2009, 01:17
by computerrank
computerrank wrote:A new release is proposed to be launched:
All bouts have same weight now - independent of being verified, unverified or unsanctioned.
This is assumed to be the best way, as no minimum standard is available worldwide.
... launched
Re: Boxrec Ratings - Read first before commenting on the ratings
Posted: 08 May 2009, 13:37
by computerrank
Cobwebcat wrote:Computerrank: What would Pacman's, Mayweather's and Marquez's all time P4P ranking value be if each of them beat the other two convincingly and then retired?
I see that Mayweather is ranked 23rd at 1142 at the moment.
Are there any other fighters that, if they retired today would get into the P4P top 100?
Here are the current all time ratings for all boxers - active or inactive.
A boxer can get 200 additional points per year at maximum - so for Pacman, Mayweather and Marquez - and Roy Jones Jr ...
Code: Select all
+-------------------+---------------+--------+-----+---------------------+
| first_name | last_name | rating | act | division |
+-------------------+---------------+--------+-----+---------------------+
| Archie | Moore | 2,312 | | Light Heavyweight |
| Muhammad | Ali | 2,110 | | Heavyweight |
| Roy | Jones Jr | 1,779 | * | Light Heavyweight |
| Sugar Ray | Robinson | 1,728 | | Middleweight |
| Jose | Napoles | 1,624 | | Welterweight |
| Bernard | Hopkins | 1,594 | * | Light Heavyweight |
| Marvin | Hagler | 1,577 | | Middleweight |
| Joe | Louis | 1,566 | | Heavyweight |
| Harry | Greb | 1,516 | | Middleweight |
| Benny | Leonard | 1,499 | | Lightweight |
| Tommy | Gibbons | 1,492 | | Light Heavyweight |
| Carlos | Monzon | 1,451 | | Middleweight |
| Oscar | De La Hoya | 1,420 | | Welterweight |
| Roberto | Duran | 1,383 | | Lightweight |
| Jack | Johnson | 1,366 | | Heavyweight |
| Floyd | Patterson | 1,300 | | Heavyweight |
| Evander | Holyfield | 1,283 | * | Heavyweight |
| Thomas | Hearns | 1,273 | | Welterweight |
| Willie | Pep | 1,265 | | Featherweight |
| Philadelphia Jack | O'Brien | 1,249 | | Light Heavyweight |
| Carlos | Ortiz | 1,236 | | Lightweight |
| Wilfredo | Gomez | 1,229 | | Super Bantamweight |
| Julio Cesar | Chavez | 1,211 | | Light Welterweight |
| Dick | Tiger | 1,183 | | Middleweight |
| Nicolino | Locche | 1,151 | | Light Welterweight |
| Floyd | Mayweather Jr | 1,143 | | Super Featherweight |
| Harry | Wills | 1,142 | | Heavyweight |
| Gene | Tunney | 1,131 | | Light Heavyweight |
| Sandro | Mazzinghi | 1,130 | | Light Middleweight |
| Joe | Gans | 1,115 | | Lightweight |
| Tommy | Ryan | 1,100 | | Middleweight |
| Ray | Leonard | 1,092 | | Welterweight |
| Ezzard | Charles | 1,079 | | Heavyweight |
| Bob | Foster | 1,047 | | Light Heavyweight |
| Vicente | Saldivar | 1,028 | | Featherweight |
| Emile | Griffith | 1,027 | | Welterweight |
| Ricardo | Lopez | 1,026 | | Minimumweight |
| Larry | Holmes | 1,022 | | Heavyweight |
| Jack | Root | 1,020 | | Light Heavyweight |
| Tommy | Loughran | 995 | | Light Heavyweight |
| Sam | Langford | 991 | | Heavyweight |
| Pernell | Whitaker | 944 | | Welterweight |
| Mickey | Walker | 918 | | Welterweight |
| Bruno | Arcari | 917 | | Light Welterweight |
| Abe | Attell | 911 | | Featherweight |
| Felix | Trinidad | 902 | | Welterweight |
| Azumah | Nelson | 898 | * | Light Middleweight |
| Battling | Levinsky | 893 | | Light Heavyweight |
| Antonio | Cervantes | 865 | | Light Welterweight |
| Harold | Johnson | 863 | | Light Heavyweight |
| Jimmy | McLarnin | 860 | | Welterweight |
| Pascual | Perez | 851 | | Flyweight |
| Joe | Frazier | 835 | | Heavyweight |
| Joe | Calzaghe | 824 | | Super Middleweight |
| Dwight Muhammad | Qawi | 818 | | Light Heavyweight |
| Alexis | Arguello | 815 | | Super Featherweight |
| Manny | Pacquiao | 815 | * | Light Welterweight |
| Rocky | Marciano | 814 | | Heavyweight |
| Virgil | Hill | 813 | | Light Heavyweight |
| Naseem | Hamed | 812 | | Featherweight |
| Johnny | Kilbane | 791 | | Featherweight |
| Kostya | Tszyu | 786 | | Light Welterweight |
| Sonny | Liston | 786 | | Heavyweight |
| Terry | Norris | 785 | | Light Middleweight |
| Terry | McGovern | 781 | | Featherweight |
| Shane | Mosley | 779 | * | Welterweight |
| Charles Kid | McCoy | 758 | | Light Heavyweight |
| Lennox | Lewis | 752 | | Heavyweight |
| Mike | McCallum | 745 | | Middleweight |
| Luis Manuel | Rodriguez | 735 | | Welterweight |
| Michael | Spinks | 735 | | Light Heavyweight |
| Eder | Jofre | 735 | | Bantamweight |
| Young | Corbett III | 729 | | Welterweight |
| Marco Antonio | Barrera | 708 | * | Lightweight |
| Manuel | Ortiz | 706 | | Bantamweight |
| Efren | Torres | 705 | | Flyweight |
| Dariusz | Michalczewski | 703 | | Light Heavyweight |
| Ronald | Wright | 697 | * | Middleweight |
| Lew | Tendler | 695 | | Lightweight |
| Horacio | Accavallo | 695 | | Flyweight |
| Bob | Fitzsimmons | 692 | | Light Heavyweight |
| Tony | Canzoneri | 692 | | Lightweight |
| Mike | Tyson | 691 | | Heavyweight |
| Michael | Nunn | 691 | | Middleweight |
| Ted 'Kid' | Lewis | 683 | | Welterweight |
| Jackie | Paterson | 682 | | Flyweight |
| Max | Schmeling | 672 | | Heavyweight |
| Ike | Williams | 668 | | Lightweight |
| Erik | Morales | 657 | | Super Bantamweight |
| Davey | Moore | 653 | | Featherweight |
| Chartchai | Chionoi | 649 | | Flyweight |
| Jimmy | Wilde | 642 | | Flyweight |
| Joey | Maxim | 641 | | Light Heavyweight |
| Marvin | Hart | 639 | | Heavyweight |
| Rush | Dalma | 638 | | Bantamweight |
| Young | Corbett II | 632 | | Featherweight |
| Billy | Conn | 631 | | Light Heavyweight |
| Samuel | Serrano | 631 | | Super Featherweight |
| Jimmy | Bivins | 630 | | Heavyweight |
| Freddie | Little | 629 | | Light Middleweight |
+-------------------+---------------+--------+-----+---------------------+
Re: Boxrec Ratings - Read first before commenting on the ratings
Posted: 08 May 2009, 13:45
by JCS
Very interesting.. its not as bad as I thought it'd be, although there are a few interesting ones.. like Napoles so high, as well as Oscar.
Hopkins at 6 is pretty awesome.
Re: Boxrec Ratings - Read first before commenting on the ratings
Posted: 08 May 2009, 16:09
by JCS
Its a very difficult process cob. You have to draw the line somewhere on how big a peak can be.
Re: Boxrec Ratings - Read first before commenting on the ratings
Posted: 08 May 2009, 16:27
by JCS
Cobwebcat wrote:JCS wrote:
I would have thought an average of the fighter's best five year scores would be better? :
Then you'd have a guy like Salvador Sanchez in the top 10.
Re: Boxrec Ratings - Read first before commenting on the ratings
Posted: 09 May 2009, 08:59
by computerrank
@Cobwebcat
I tried a lot of different criteria in the past - some I remember in the list following:
(1.) average of best 10 / 14 performances
(2.) linear combination of (1.) and worst losses in this peak time (first to last top performance)
(3.) peak value of sliding average over performances of 10 / 14 bouts
(4.) peak value of modified current rating (relaxtion factor 0.07 , where current rating has 0.33)
(5.) average current rating of best 5 years
(6.) linear combinations of type peak modified current rating (3.) and average current rating for some years
For all these criteria there were more or less outliers from the perspectives of various serious members of the discussion forum - critical factors were:
- some very high performances had too much impact
- medium level performances over longer times had too much impact
Finally we are now at this all time rating ingredients:
- It is the sum of the weighed annual ratings. The longer lasting the performance level the better the all time rating.
- But the weight is heavily non-linear (squared) in order to focus on top annual ratings - and to separate sharply in the top region. You get 10 annual points for a current rating of 500 points, but 40 points for a rating of 1000 points and only 2.5 points for a rating of 250 points. So you cannot simply accumulate points at a medium level to get to the top.
- And the current ratings show very high sparks up to 5000 points sometimes. I had to introduce a cut at 200 points per year (equates 2300 points current rating) in order to control some outliers.
So these are the goals:
- reward performance level
- reward durability at top level
- discriminate medium level from top level performance
- discriminate sparks from durability
But all is some compromise ...
Re: Boxrec Ratings - Read first before commenting on the ratings
Posted: 20 May 2009, 10:45
by computerrank
Did you expect this? 1000 experts - 1000 opinions ...
Re: Boxrec Ratings - Read first before commenting on the ratings
Posted: 24 May 2009, 12:40
by jujigatame
Interesting phenomenon today, Rafael Marquez is listed as #1 at 122 on the front page, but when you click to look at the full list of 122 rankings, he's not there.
Re: Boxrec Ratings - Read first before commenting on the ratings
Posted: 24 May 2009, 13:20
by JCS
jujigatame wrote:Interesting phenomenon today, Rafael Marquez is listed as #1 at 122 on the front page, but when you click to look at the full list of 122 rankings, he's not there.
Marquez was likely moved to Feather after that front page list was built.
Re: Boxrec Ratings - Read first before commenting on the ratings
Posted: 26 May 2009, 00:06
by Blue
Marquez is @ 122 
Re: Boxrec Ratings - Read first before commenting on the ratings
Posted: 08 Jun 2009, 09:55
by JCS
Juan Carlos Reveco and Brahim Asloum both incurred a quality performance penalty today...
The interesting part is that their last quality performance was against one another. Do you think that's OK?
Re: Boxrec Ratings - Read first before commenting on the ratings
Posted: 15 Jun 2009, 03:15
by computerrank
JCS wrote:Juan Carlos Reveco and Brahim Asloum both incurred a quality performance penalty today...
The interesting part is that their last quality performance was against one another. Do you think that's OK?
Sorry, I don't get the point. Would you please explain?