Page 669 of 1796
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Posted: 23 Mar 2009, 13:39
by iskigoe
Hey guys,
If were talking horses here Id have more of an opinion. But in boxing Im
a green pea. It just seems if Gans was faking, it was the worst acting job
ever done. I am not alone in thinking this one of the top historians at Cbz argees
with my way of seeing it.
Tom good to hear from you.
KI
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Posted: 23 Mar 2009, 13:56
by raylawpc
iskigoe wrote:Hey guys,
If were talking horses here Id have more of an opinion. But in boxing Im
a green pea. It just seems if Gans was faking, it was the worst acting job
ever done. I am not alone in thinking this one of the top historians at Cbz argees
with my way of seeing it.
Tom good to hear from you.
KI
Good to see you with us too, Kevin.
I know that Barry Deskin sees things differently. He is quite adament in his belief that McGovern won by a legitimate KO. But Barry is an unabashed McGovern fan - a fact he freely admits.
BTW, I am not stating a conclusive opinion that Gans went in the tank. I don't know. But the whole things looks mighty fishy to me. And I put great weight in George Siler's opinion.
I hope Rick is able to get your granddad in the HOF. And, again, welcome to the board.
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Posted: 23 Mar 2009, 14:23
by iskigoe
My 20 Greatest * • •
By Hype Igoe
International NEws: Service Sports Writer
NEW YORK, Mar. 11.—It Isn'l always the giants of the ring who
make you swallow your Adam's apple or cause shivers to play
leap-frog up and down your spine !
As proof of that, I now take. you into old Madison Square Garden
to see Joe Lynch nnd Jack Sharkey make bantamwelght history,
the first of two fights which had the clients standing on their
chairs for 15 rounds.
They met in the first-bout of that distance on September 2nd,
1920. Long they had been rivals and each wanted to be champion.
Little did Lynch dream that he was only three months away from
it. Tex Rlckard was running the old Garden with the late Leo P.
Flynn acting as his matchmaker and a good one he was, too.
Both Lynch and Sharkcy were angling for a fight for the crown
against Pete Herman, the title holder. That's why their first
fight was such a desperate affair.
The bell rang sending them out on a lope. I've seen some hunies
in my time, but I can't remember any such sustained fury as they
piled into 15 rounds, and no racking of my brain can recall to memory
any great flght crowd remaining afoot throughout the- entire
progress of n ring fight.
That such tenable tenacity should have been lavished in a
physical struggle, bought and paid for, was somewhat confounding,
seeming so utterly wasted and useless.
When they had finished, with shrieking maniacs goading them
on to the last atom of stamina, of courage and the will to win they
called it a draw. That was the only fair thing to do since they
had been locked, like tiny stags of the forest, the entire rout*?.
Rickard wanted Joe and Jock back. He sent wily Leo P. Fiynn
out to "fish" for them. Tex knew that he .would have to pay a lot of
money.
The sports world stood openmouthed when it was learned
what actually he did pay Jack and Joe. It really amounted to fat
bonuses. Flynn, learning that Eddie Meade, Lynch's manager, was
In a 45th Street barber shop, between Eighth Avenue and Broadway,
went to look him up. It was rather an embarrassing moment
for both Leo and Mead because they hated the hide of each other
and would not have enterd into any conversation for a thousand
dollar bill.
Flynn met Murray Lewin, the boxing writer, in front of the
shop and asked him to go in and sound Mead out on n return bout
between Lynch and Sharkcy;
"I wouldn't let Lynch fight for Flynn again," growled Mead
through the lather on his face. "It will cost Rikard plenty if they
ever do get Lynch," said Mead.
"What do you consider plenty?" parried Lewin. "Flynn Is
outside waiting for your answer." "Tell that mugg that I want 10
grand for Lynch and when Flynn drops dead roll him into the gutler
for me."
Lewin went out and rcported.
"Swell—swell! No sooner said than done Murray! Here is the
contract all ready lor Mead's signature —10 thousand for Lynch!
You see I know that baby and I read his mind before he had it
made up."
Mead signed the article:! of agreement while stretched in the
barber's chair. When little Joe Wagner, Sharkey's
manager, heard of Joe's guarantee, he demanded the same
amount for Sharkcy, penny for penny. He got it! It was a staggoring
guarantee for little fellows, yet quite in keeping with Rickard's
way of doing things.
They met on December 2, of the same year and if the first was a
thriller this was an unbelievable hair raiser. As before, the crowd
went raving mad over the action. Lynch was Just a wee bit better
in the matter of condition this time and he wore Sharkcy dnwn,
second by second, inch by inch, though he waged the fight of his
whole career to get his man!
Sharkey left his corner for the 15th Just a bit groggy, so bitter
had been the previous round. Lynch brought him down with
a right cross to the jaw and Sharkey pitched flat on his face, like a
fellow felled with an elephant gun.
Hats were sailing through the air, canes, gloves and binoculars.
That wasn't all. A small army of human beings likewise hurled
them.selves over the ropes to get hugs and kisses from the hero
of the hour.
Twenty days later Lynch won the world title from Pete Herman.
In July of the following year, Herman regained It by outpointing
Lynch in 15 rounds. In September Johnny Buff defeated
Herman for the title and in another savage fight, Lynch again
became the champion by knockIng out Buff in 14! A magnificent
fighting Irish tyke!
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Posted: 23 Mar 2009, 14:24
by iskigoe
My 20 Greatest • • *
By Hype Igoe
International NewS Service SporTS Writer
NEW YORK, Mar. 14.— Bllly Petrolle, "The Fargo Express"
and, to Jack Hurley, his manager •The Old man," was a fighter for
the Greek gods. A magnificent warrior; With his old Navnjo
blanket wrapped around him, he was perhaps the most pitcuresque
ringman boxing ever has known. The pity of It all was that there
had to come a day when he set aside his Indian blank,".his courage
his, fighting heart, to go into the iron business. While he
fought, he didn't give the fans a run for their money; he gave them
a gallop !
Perhaps there was no fight in Billy's career which called for so
much ,courage., fighting savvy and the will to win as when BilIy met
Justo Suarez, the hard-hitting,, Argentine lightweight in Madison Square Garden
Justo had attracted promoters here when he knocked out Babe
Herman in Buenos Aires with a punch. He came on to New York
and in quick succession he defeated Joe glick, Herman Perlick
Bruce Flowers. Ray Miller and Louis Kid Kaplan. Flowers he
flattened In six. He returned to Buenos Aires and knocked out
Stanley Loynza and Juan Carlos Then a bid to fight the Fargo Express
brought him on the run from the Argentine. If this dark-eyed
stranger could stretch the "Old Man he would be a $200,000 open air
box office asset for t h e Garden for the world lightweight title
Came that night of nights. The Old Man," ,as was his custom '
came Into the ring wrapped ,„' his dingy Navajo blanket, As he
sat . on his chair. Hurley!, and the others fussing aroundd with the
gloves the "Old Man" looked like an Indian renegade. He neither
smiled nor did he even so much as glance in the direction of the
proud Argentine.
The bell rang and Suarez began lashlng at him like an octopus
With every punch , the "Old Man" seemed to grow a hundred years older. Hurley was as white as death itself. He tried to shout , encouragement to the old " Express " who was rapidly heading for an open switch and the ditch"
It maybe that Billy ncver remembered that first round No
man over was hit so hard or oflen-"in a given three minutes. Not
love taps or clouts calculated to command respect. Suarez one of
the best natural hitters I had ever seen w,th the possible exception
of, Aurello Herrern, the Mexican was trying to make every punch •!
knockout bang. Bill got buck tothe corner at the end of that first
and Hurley began to tommy-gun advice into his deadened eardrums.
Hurley Is no angel when his main is getting the worst of it
especially If Hurley happens to think that such punlshmient could
be avoided.
Billy went back Into the second round , his head ringing like the chimes !
of Normandy, what with the abuse of blows and bellowing. I
He didn't seemto be doing any better In this second chuhtker. !„
fact, he was getting „ drubbing now . Suarze with impending victory lighting uphis soul was jack-knifing the grand Old Duke of Duluth with every whizzing punch .
The bell ended Billy's nightmare. How sweet It must have
sounded to his ears if. indeed, hecould hear anything at all. it so
happened that old Will had to make the full trip from Justo's
corner to his own. He came back to Hurley, singing-
HAPPY- DAYS' ARE HERE AGAIN
This drove Hurley frantic. . Will you tell me what you're
singing about? You Just got murderd , yet here you comeback
wastIng precious breath, singing,,,,an idiotic ditty. What are you
chirping about?" roared Hurley
its okay now- Mister HURLEY iVE GOT HIM COMING TO ME
thats why Im so happy , puffed the old fargo express
Cunning old warrior that he was, Petrolle had delected something akint to careless ,,aggression
on thePart of the south American.
He had opened up and duckingg with one of Billy',,left
hooks, always deadly and unnervinging so long as he remained on his
The finale soon is told, BILLY IN deed, had him coming to ,,him'
, as he came, Billy butchered him. Billy got his Spaniard in
the ninth with „a clean knock out!
" It was an unforgettoble march back from the depths of bitter
defeat , though Billy told me , afterward that he "wasn't hurted"" at any stage of the duel Superb OLD MAN
would that there were more Fargo Express in duplicate .
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Posted: 23 Mar 2009, 14:25
by iskigoe
My 20 Greatest • • *
By Hype Igoe
International Newt Service Sports Writer
hurd
NEW YOKK, Mar. 18.—Juc
Walcott and Kid Lavigne' had fought their never-to-be-forgotton
15 round bout at Maspeth, L. I., which for downright savagery,
scarcely has been done In repeat in all the history of the
sport.
There Is a little cafe out in Maspeth and on the wall hangs
stained canvas which covered the ring on the night of the battle],
far back In 1895. Those who saw the fight .seemed always to recall
that one of Lavigne's ears was almost severed with one of Walcott's
wicked swipes and that It dangled as from a thread through
many of the rounds, This abysmal episode was repeated
in San Francisco two years later. I visited Lavigne's training
camp at Blanken's road House with Bill Naughton, famous
clout chronicler ot that period. We arrived In style, big Bill driving
a pair of bays which drew a nicely turned buggy with red
wheels
Wo brought the rain with us, too. As we stood on the -porch
talking to Billy Lavigne , the Kid's brother, down the road came
Lavigne splashing through the mud, his body entirely covered
with sailor's oilskin, a so'wester
on his head!
Naughton revealed to the Kid that there were ugly rumors about
his going to take a "dive" to W,olcott;that tho gamblers had the
coming battle "In the bag!" Never will I forget the look of
mingled horror and disgust which spread! across the llttln lightweight
champion's face. Then tears begun to stream from his
eyes, as he said: "How did anything like that ever .start, Bill? You must know
that of all men In the world I want to whip, It is Joe Walcott!"
Then, as if to make his word.more clear, he reached up and
pulled out a bridge ot four front teeth and placedd them in a little
tin box. "I'll give you my answer to these silly rumors, Bill,"
went on Lavigne. "You watch the fight and if you detect a single
move on my part which you think is off color, you have my permlssion
to turn my end of the purse over to any charity you may name. That's only part of my answer. The fight wall be my statement In full." We sat
down in lunch with the little warrior and one could see that
Nuughton's lip had lashed Lavigne' across the heart with the sting of
a bullwhip.
Mechanic's Pavilion was bulging with humanity when tho bell
sent the Kid and the Barbadous demon lunging from their chairs
Tom O'rourke had had a lot of worry bringing Walcott down to
the required weight.
On tac way across the bay from Oakland. O Rourke bundled the
Demon in heavy sweaters and had prevailed upon the captain of the
fcrryboat topermit Walcott to go into the engine room and shovel
coal into tho blistering hot boiler pots In order to keep within the
weight, for which they had posted a stiff forfeit
Lavigne was a true fighter that nlght. He was milling with all stamina intact
O'Rourke, guniuis that he was In the handling of Negro fighters, couldn't help
little Joe now. He would come back to his corner after every
round, moaning aloud with the pain which the Kid's black-jack
fists had inficted upon the "the giant killer "
In the soventh round, Walcott was all but done for. He hung on
for dear l i f e atthe snarling, infuriated Kid tried to disembowel
him with ripping fists. Once, as Joe clung lo Lavigne's neck In a
vain effort to save himself from utter destruction, the Kid spun
around, swinging Walcott through the air like a wrestler executing
flying mare. Then Lavlgnc swung In under Walcott's flying
body, caught him on his back and dumped the mortified Demon into
the resin as the great crowd, .standing on their chairs skrieked
and jabbered like ring-tailed monkeys.
In all that vast gathering I doubt that there was one heart
In Its proper berth. I know myself that I chawed my lead pencil
In twain without even knowing that my Jaws had been working
like the- blades of a tinsmith's clippers,
Walcott, a great fighter, mind you, wasn't a match for the little
Frenchman. The Kid was mowIng him down with the relentlessness
ofa scythe. They were drenched in crimson and Walcott
was pitifully weak and In distress.
Lavigne brought him down with one last grant effort. The
Demon still was crawling toward the ropes In an effort to regain
his feet when O'rouke mercifully came to his rescue by tossing
in a soggy sponge which exploded, not in Walcott''s but Lavigne's face
The case of Messrs. Lavgine and Walcolt was closed forever. The
Barbadoes Demon took to the other side of the boulevards when
he saw the Kid coming his way
one man on earth whom walcott feared as something supernaturall.
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Posted: 23 Mar 2009, 15:36
by raylawpc
iskigoe wrote:My 20 Greatest • • *
By Hype Igoe
International Newt Service Sports Writer
hurd
NEW YOKK, Mar. 18.—Juc
Walcott and Kid Lavigne' had fought their never-to-be-forgotton
15 round bout at Maspeth, L. I., which for downright savagery,
scarcely has been done In repeat in all the history of the
sport.
There Is a little cafe out in Maspeth and on the wall hangs
stained canvas which covered the ring on the night of the battle],
far back In 1895. Those who saw the fight .seemed always to recall
that one of Lavigne's ears was almost severed with one of Walcott's
wicked swipes and that It dangled as from a thread through
many of the rounds, This abysmal episode was repeated
in San Francisco two years later. I visited Lavigne's training
camp at Blanken's road House with Bill Naughton, famous
clout chronicler ot that period. We arrived In style, big Bill driving
a pair of bays which drew a nicely turned buggy with red
wheels
Wo brought the rain with us, too. As we stood on the -porch
talking to Billy Lavigne , the Kid's brother, down the road came
Lavigne splashing through the mud, his body entirely covered
with sailor's oilskin, a so'wester
on his head!
Naughton revealed to the Kid that there were ugly rumors about
his going to take a "dive" to W,olcott;that tho gamblers had the
coming battle "In the bag!" Never will I forget the look of
mingled horror and disgust which spread! across the llttln lightweight
champion's face. Then tears begun to stream from his
eyes, as he said: "How did anything like that ever .start, Bill? You must know
that of all men In the world I want to whip, It is Joe Walcott!"
Then, as if to make his word.more clear, he reached up and
pulled out a bridge ot four front teeth and placedd them in a little
tin box. "I'll give you my answer to these silly rumors, Bill,"
went on Lavigne. "You watch the fight and if you detect a single
move on my part which you think is off color, you have my permlssion
to turn my end of the purse over to any charity you may name. That's only part of my answer. The fight wall be my statement In full." We sat
down in lunch with the little warrior and one could see that
Nuughton's lip had lashed Lavigne' across the heart with the sting of
a bullwhip.
Mechanic's Pavilion was bulging with humanity when tho bell
sent the Kid and the Barbadous demon lunging from their chairs
Tom O'rourke had had a lot of worry bringing Walcott down to
the required weight.
On tac way across the bay from Oakland. O Rourke bundled the
Demon in heavy sweaters and had prevailed upon the captain of the
fcrryboat topermit Walcott to go into the engine room and shovel
coal into tho blistering hot boiler pots In order to keep within the
weight, for which they had posted a stiff forfeit
Lavigne was a true fighter that nlght. He was milling with all stamina intact
O'Rourke, guniuis that he was In the handling of Negro fighters, couldn't help
little Joe now. He would come back to his corner after every
round, moaning aloud with the pain which the Kid's black-jack
fists had inficted upon the "the giant killer "
In the soventh round, Walcott was all but done for. He hung on
for dear l i f e atthe snarling, infuriated Kid tried to disembowel
him with ripping fists. Once, as Joe clung lo Lavigne's neck In a
vain effort to save himself from utter destruction, the Kid spun
around, swinging Walcott through the air like a wrestler executing
flying mare. Then Lavlgnc swung In under Walcott's flying
body, caught him on his back and dumped the mortified Demon into
the resin as the great crowd, .standing on their chairs skrieked
and jabbered like ring-tailed monkeys.
In all that vast gathering I doubt that there was one heart
In Its proper berth. I know myself that I chawed my lead pencil
In twain without even knowing that my Jaws had been working
like the- blades of a tinsmith's clippers,
Walcott, a great fighter, mind you, wasn't a match for the little
Frenchman. The Kid was mowIng him down with the relentlessness
ofa scythe. They were drenched in crimson and Walcott
was pitifully weak and In distress.
Lavigne brought him down with one last grant effort. The
Demon still was crawling toward the ropes In an effort to regain
his feet when O'rouke mercifully came to his rescue by tossing
in a soggy sponge which exploded, not in Walcott''s but Lavigne's face
The case of Messrs. Lavgine and Walcolt was closed forever. The
Barbadoes Demon took to the other side of the boulevards when
he saw the Kid coming his way
one man on earth whom walcott feared as something supernaturall.
Thanks Kevin. George Lavigne is, sadly, one of the forgotten greats of boxing. Ultimately, his career was wrecked, not by his opponent's fists, but by alcohol. He was a great, great fighter - a Carmen Basilio of the 19th century.
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Posted: 23 Mar 2009, 16:17
by iskigoe
Hey Tom,
Runyon once asked Hype who his top fighter was. Runyon was sure he would say
Ketchel or Dempsey, but was suprised to hear it was Kid Lavagine.
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Posted: 23 Mar 2009, 16:48
by raylawpc
iskigoe wrote:Hey Tom,
Runyon once asked Hype who his top fighter was. Runyon was sure he would say
Ketchel or Dempsey, but was suprised to hear it was Kid Lavagine.
There were some old-timers - Tommy Ryan among them, if I recall correctly - who claimed that, had Lavigne not fallen victim to alcoholism, people would remember Lavigne as the top lightweight from the turn-of-the-century, not Gans. Hype probably liked him because he was a lightweight version of Ketchel.
Note to Rick: Lavigne is another guy worthy of inclusion in the WBHOF!!
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Posted: 23 Mar 2009, 16:55
by Rick Farris
Rick Farris wrote:Vince Delgado, on being a "Referee" . . .
By- Rick Farris
He was a featherweight contender in the fifites, and has refereed dozens of world championship bouts during the past three decades. Vince, the nephew of former lightweight contender, Carlos Chavez, retired from the ring with his health and mind in tact. To this day, at age 75, he is sharp as a tack and looks as if he could box ten rounds.
There is something about boxing that can keep a man young. If you work it right, and don't stay in it "too long", the benefits of a ring career and carry thru a man's life. That's what I see when I talk with Vince Delgado. Vince looks you directly in the eyes, he does not waste time with exaggeration, he speaks from the heart and he shares a candid reality when discussing boxing.
Yesterday we had a great talk. We talked about the great trainers of his day, especially his teacher, Johnny Forbes. We have talked a lot of Johnny Forbes here, or his fighters, that is. Johnny had a great stable and knew how to teach the art of boxing. He was the man who brought us Keeny Teran and Gil Cadilli, to name a couple.
We also talked about referees, and the referees's most important role, to protect the fighters. It's not just about upholding the rules of a match, but having the knowledge and experience to recognize when a fighter is in serious trouble. They don't teach that in Medical School. A doctor can look into a man's eyes and see signs that indicate a serious injury. However, only the referee is close enough to a boxer in the ring to to read his eyes.
Fighter's learn to mask their pain and injury, they know that "being hurt" does not gain one sympathy in the ring, but a greater beating. Boxers can, and often do, will themselves beyond their instinct for survival, just to stay in a loosing fight. They believe that as long as they are standing they have a chance, one good shot could change the outcome. They don't teach this in medical school. When you see a guy standing and attempting to fight back, the ignorant might believe that the fighter is not hurt. The referee must know "how a boxer thinks", and have the ability to read thru his actions, to know when a fighter's lies are going to get him hurt. 99% of the men who step into a professional prize ring will never admit to anybody they are hurt. They know better, weakness is not an option in a pro boxing ring.
"You have to understand body language", Vince tells me. "When I ask a kid if he's OK, I don't listen to what he says, I look at his eyes, how he moves. His voice will tell me he's 'OK', but his body will tell me he is finished, or that he has a little left in the tank." When in doubt, Vince Delgado knows that he must stop the fight. "He'll live to fight another day, and maybe can even the score, but on this day I'm not going to put his life or future in jepardy". Regardless of what the fans think, I'd rather stop a fight to early than to late."
Hall of Fame referee Gwen Adair, the only female in history to referee a world championship boxing match, agrees. "When I was learning my trade, I learned from the best." Gwen remembers speaking with another Hall of Fame ref, Joey Olmos, on the subject of stopping fights. "Joey was an early mentor and told me it's better to stop a fight too early, rather than too late."
Today, boxing has changed drastically from what it was in years past. We have bigger men, and some brilliant athletic specimens, but very few really know how to box or fight. The problem is there is nobody with true boxing education to teach them, the secrets that molded champions in years gone by, died with the men who shared them. Today, if a guy isn't a natural talent (and how many Roberto Duran's come along?) he's at the mercy of his trainer. Defense is becoming a lost art. Today, so-called boxing experts consider a great defensive boxer a man who refususes to engage or runs like a dog. There was a time when it involved lost art moves such as blocking, slipping, countering, leading, taking control, making a guy miss and then making them pay.
With the great trainers all gone, the guys who could teach a fighter to survive in the ring without enduring a beating in the process, the role of the referee is even more important. It is important that a ref not just enforce the rules, but to understand the nature of a boxer, both in a physical and mental sense. Who better than a man who not only walked the walk, but has the intellect and common sense to save a man's life. This is Vince Delgado.
The State Athletic Commission is an odd organization, like boxing itself, both corrupt and political in nature. Like the guys who teach boxers today, those who govern the sport of boxing in the State of California are are a confused entity, making decisions that will lead to further unnecessary injuries and deaths in the ring.
The powers in charge of the State Athletic Commission know better than to tell a ring official that they are "too old" to step into a ring and serve as a referee. Nobody wants a "discrimination" law suit. The officials just assign the elderly officials a ringside judging job. Sounds fair enough, right? Sadly, the answer is a big NO!. If a referee's mind is slipping and he's lost the spring in his step, then a change must be made. However, what about that exception to the rule? What about a guy like Vince Delgado?
Is it best to put a boxer at risk because somebody at the commission would prefer his bout be ref'd by some young, politically correct, inexperienced young official ? Fans can pressure a weak ref. The last thing the guy wants to do is anger the fans by stopping a bout "too early". But the question isn't about "too early", but "too late".
Here's a perfect example, one that I can tell first hand. In 1971, I was down three times in the fourth round of a bout at the Santa Monica Civic Auditorium. Aside from those three knockdowns, I was only dropped once, briefly, during my pro career. I took a good shot, but on this night, I was taking a beating and I refused to quit. I went down face first on the third knockdown, it was on TV. I was badly hurt, my nose busted, etc. I heard a voice from ringside thru the darkness, "He won't get up this time!"
That voice informed me that I was down. Somehow, I got to my feet and the referee, Dick Young, looked me in the eyes and asked, "How do you feel, Ricky?" I was struggling to keep my legs under me as I answered, "I'm fine, I'm OK!" Was I fine? No. I was hurt bad and would likely have suffered some permanent injury had the bout been allowed to continue. Referee Dick Young, one of my favorites, wisely stopped the bout. "I'm sorry son, but this isn't your night." Young wrapped his arms around me and stopped the fight.
Outwardly, I feined disappointment. However, deep inside I was thinking, "Thank God he stopped this fight!" I was finished. Had Dick Young listened to me, and not seen what he knew to be true, I might not be writing this today.
That Athletic commission no longer assigns Vince Delgado referee jobs. I think they need be taken to task over this reality. They are unwisely putting a young person's life in danger by disregarding the health (both physical and mental) of an experienced world class referee. More to come on this, I promise.
-Rick Farris
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Posted: 23 Mar 2009, 17:24
by iskigoe
Rick,
I just started reading Dempsey's Championship Fighter. He goes into
great detail about the lost art of moving and punching. He claimed also..
there were few trainers left who could really teach how to crush a man with a punishing blow.
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Posted: 23 Mar 2009, 19:08
by Rick Farris
iskigoe wrote:Rick,
I just started reading Dempsey's Championship Fighter. He goes into
great detail about the lost art of moving and punching. He claimed also..
there were few trainers left who could really teach how to crush a man with a punishing blow.
I have that book, Kevin. It's out of print and hard to find. Lots of great info in that book. His "falling step" punch really sums putting one's weight into a blow, the shifting of weight, etc.
-Rick Farris
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Posted: 23 Mar 2009, 19:13
by Rick Farris
raylawpc wrote:iskigoe wrote:Hey Tom,
Runyon once asked Hype who his top fighter was. Runyon was sure he would say
Ketchel or Dempsey, but was suprised to hear it was Kid Lavagine.
There were some old-timers - Tommy Ryan among them, if I recall correctly - who claimed that, had Lavigne not fallen victim to alcoholism, people would remember Lavigne as the top lightweight from the turn-of-the-century, not Gans. Hype probably liked him because he was a lightweight version of Ketchel.
Note to Rick: Lavigne is another guy worthy of inclusion in the WBHOF!!
Thanks, Tom. I'll note his name at the bottom of a long list. I'm working on George Dixon and Ad Wolgast, at the moment
-Rick
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Posted: 23 Mar 2009, 19:38
by kikibalt
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Posted: 23 Mar 2009, 19:51
by raylawpc
Rick Farris wrote:raylawpc wrote:iskigoe wrote:Hey Tom,
Runyon once asked Hype who his top fighter was. Runyon was sure he would say
Ketchel or Dempsey, but was suprised to hear it was Kid Lavagine.
There were some old-timers - Tommy Ryan among them, if I recall correctly - who claimed that, had Lavigne not fallen victim to alcoholism, people would remember Lavigne as the top lightweight from the turn-of-the-century, not Gans. Hype probably liked him because he was a lightweight version of Ketchel.
Note to Rick: Lavigne is another guy worthy of inclusion in the WBHOF!!
Thanks, Tom. I'll note his name at the bottom of a long list. I'm working on George Dixon and Ad Wolgast, at the moment
-Rick
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Posted: 23 Mar 2009, 20:23
by kikibalt
Ricardo Mayorga vs Daniel Santos!
March 23, 2009 by Edgar Gonzalez
Ricardo Mayorga was scheduled to fight February 14th against unbeaten junior middleweight prospect Alfredo Angulo, but for some unknown reason he pulled out and the fight was cancelled. Rumors say he got hurt during training, others say he demanded more money. Whatever the reason might have been, one thing is for sure “El Matador” is now back in business and is scheduled to fight Daniel Santos (32-3-1 23KO’s) for the WBA light middleweight title on May 30, 2009.
How the Nicaraguan was able get a title shot is beyond me.
Mayorga lost 3 of his last 5 fights, his last being with Shane Mosley via KO, many will disagree with me, but I thought it was a pretty close fight. Two of the judges had Mayorga down by one. Pat Russell 105-104, Nelson Vazquez 104-105 and Tony Crebs 102-107.
The fight is taking place in Las Vegas, Mayorga as the main event and Andre Berto vs.. Juan Urango will be the co-main event and Alfredo Angulo against Kermit Cintron will be the third fight. No word if this will be a Pay-per-view or free on HBO. Stay tune for more info.
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Posted: 23 Mar 2009, 20:25
by iskigoe
Rick,
The Dempsey book was illustrated by Hype's son Eddie. Eddie did some sports illustrating for a few yrs
for some ny papers.
ki
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Posted: 23 Mar 2009, 21:14
by Rick Farris
kikibalt wrote:Ricardo Mayorga vs Daniel Santos!
March 23, 2009 by Edgar Gonzalez
Ricardo Mayorga was scheduled to fight February 14th against unbeaten junior middleweight prospect Alfredo Angulo, but for some unknown reason he pulled out and the fight was cancelled. Rumors say he got hurt during training, others say he demanded more money. Whatever the reason might have been, one thing is for sure “El Matador” is now back in business and is scheduled to fight Daniel Santos (32-3-1 23KO’s) for the WBA light middleweight title on May 30, 2009.
How the Nicaraguan was able get a title shot is beyond me.
Mayorga lost 3 of his last 5 fights, his last being with Shane Mosley via KO, many will disagree with me, but I thought it was a pretty close fight. Two of the judges had Mayorga down by one. Pat Russell 105-104, Nelson Vazquez 104-105 and Tony Crebs 102-107.
The fight is taking place in Las Vegas, Mayorga as the main event and Andre Berto vs.. Juan Urango will be the co-main event and Alfredo Angulo against Kermit Cintron will be the third fight. No word if this will be a Pay-per-view or free on HBO. Stay tune for more info.
Antonio Margarito may have Kermit Cintron's number, but Alfredo Angulo isn't Antonio Margarito. I'm looking to see Angulo's first loss in coming months. I wonder if Cintron is the guy?
-Rick
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Posted: 23 Mar 2009, 21:39
by kikibalt
Rick Farris wrote:kikibalt wrote:Ricardo Mayorga vs Daniel Santos!
March 23, 2009 by Edgar Gonzalez
Ricardo Mayorga was scheduled to fight February 14th against unbeaten junior middleweight prospect Alfredo Angulo, but for some unknown reason he pulled out and the fight was cancelled. Rumors say he got hurt during training, others say he demanded more money. Whatever the reason might have been, one thing is for sure “El Matador” is now back in business and is scheduled to fight Daniel Santos (32-3-1 23KO’s) for the WBA light middleweight title on May 30, 2009.
How the Nicaraguan was able get a title shot is beyond me.
Mayorga lost 3 of his last 5 fights, his last being with Shane Mosley via KO, many will disagree with me, but I thought it was a pretty close fight. Two of the judges had Mayorga down by one. Pat Russell 105-104, Nelson Vazquez 104-105 and Tony Crebs 102-107.
The fight is taking place in Las Vegas, Mayorga as the main event and Andre Berto vs.. Juan Urango will be the co-main event and Alfredo Angulo against Kermit Cintron will be the third fight. No word if this will be a Pay-per-view or free on HBO. Stay tune for more info.
Antonio Margarito may have Kermit Cintron's number, but Alfredo Angulo isn't Antonio Margarito. I'm looking to see Angulo's first loss in coming months. I wonder if Cintron is the guy?
-Rick
Rick Cintron may be to small for Angulo, I too see Angulo losing some time this year.
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Posted: 23 Mar 2009, 22:07
by dagosd2000
THE DREAM THAT BECAME A NIGHTMARE
Before I got on the Forum,my contact with the sport of boxing was a far back memory. I'd been to one fight at the Pachanga Indian Reservation in more than 30 years. The thread has stirred up my interest again. Meeting some of the guys I used to watch in the squared circle has certainly been a treat. But some of those distant memories have come back. I'm recalling them little by little.
I wrote about how I found out about Spud Murphy's death. Spud was a local lightweight who's dad trained him in his gym on upper Broadway. I was working with a fighter named Gilbert Baptist at Juvenile Hall. Gilbert was doing some work for the Probation Department then. He was also working out with Terry Norris.
Like I told the story,I found out about Spud's death at his old man's gym. I don't want to rehash the events of that day,so I won't.I've already written about that. All I'm going to say is the old man talked about his son like he was still alive in that gym.
I remember Irish Spud Murphy. He wasn't very good. All the fellas' around the Coliseum were telling his father to let the kid go. Spud wasn't a strong kid. He lost a lot of fights to nobodys.
I'd been away from the boxing scene for a while before I met Gilbert Baptist and used to watch him train with Norris at old man Murphy's Gym. He named the gym after his deceased son. "Spud Murphy's Gym."
When I found out that the Commission had yanked Spud's license because the cat scan came out negative,it bothered me that his father would let him work out with the fighters still. I guess the kid collapsed in the shower inside the gym. When I think about it,it makes me blue. That shouldn't have happened. The old man was living a dream through his son that became nightmare. Nightmares never go away.
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Posted: 23 Mar 2009, 22:28
by Expug
I remember you posting that story of Spud before Rog.
Its very sad . Very poignant.
Father and son teams I suppose can be very tricky.
Frank and his boys probably have had the best combination of Father and sons in boxing history.
The other ones Im familiar with seem to have gotten shaky at times.
Ray could probably give us some insight into the Pat and Sean O'Grady combination.
Ive heard it was at times a bit rocky.
Something about Sean fighting Andy Gannigan and a WAA title or something.
Its a tough situation if you have been a fighter and your boy wants to fight. You want whats best, so you want to be very involved.
However, being a trainer and manager is more then throwing a towel over your shoulder and making a few phone calls.
This game aint a maypole dance thats for sure.
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Posted: 23 Mar 2009, 22:42
by Chuck1052
Like many California boxing fans of the 1930s, Hap undoubtedly was familiar with Claude Varner, a capable featherweight from the Bakersfield area. According to the records on Ancestry.com, it appears that Varner's real name was James Claude Varner and that he was born in Fort Worth, Texas. Looking at the California Death Records database on RootsWeb, I found one James C. Varner who was born on July 17, 1908 and died on January 14, 1963 while he was a resident of Delano, California. His Social Security number was 551-46-1504 and his mother's maiden last name was Stone.
On Ancestry.com, I believe that I found Varner in the U.S. Census (1910 and 1930) and in the list of passengers who had arrived in California ports after sailing from foreign countries. Looking at his boxing record on BoxRec, I was astounded to find that he had only seventy recorded bouts and had a losing record (31-32-7). But at the same time, Varner fought for about twenty years and had his last recorded bout in the late 1940s, which means he was active far beyond his "sell-by" date.
Varner had a brother named Pat, who had a short career as a professional boxer. It appears that Pat's real name was Clyde Overton Varner. Looking on the California Death Records database on RootsWeb, I found one Clyde Overton Varner who was born on August 23, 1909 in Texas and died in Kern County on April 23, 1987. His Social Security number was 555-09-8266 and his mother's maiden last name was Stone.
- Chuck Johnston
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Posted: 23 Mar 2009, 23:50
by Dongee
Chuck:
Good work on Claude Varner, a real west coast journeyman in two weight classes. His record does not come close to validating the man's stature in ability and popularity for many years and against some of the ranking contemporaries.
Varner was the first officially-recognized Featherweight Champion of California and he earned that honor by defeating Fidel La Barba at the weight in June, 1931 at Hollywood Lewgion Stadium. He was soon beaten by newcomer Baby Arizmendi, also within the class weight limit, but Baby could not claim the title as he had not been a resident of the state for the required six months. Claude's title eventually passed on to Filipino Varias Milling, who decisioned him at Sacramento. Hard as nails, scrappy Ckaude Varner
By the way, the California Athletic Commission began recognizing state champions, for the first time officially, in 1931.
hap navarro
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Posted: 24 Mar 2009, 01:17
by Rick Farris
kikibalt wrote:Rick Farris wrote:kikibalt wrote:Ricardo Mayorga vs Daniel Santos!
March 23, 2009 by Edgar Gonzalez
Ricardo Mayorga was scheduled to fight February 14th against unbeaten junior middleweight prospect Alfredo Angulo, but for some unknown reason he pulled out and the fight was cancelled. Rumors say he got hurt during training, others say he demanded more money. Whatever the reason might have been, one thing is for sure “El Matador” is now back in business and is scheduled to fight Daniel Santos (32-3-1 23KO’s) for the WBA light middleweight title on May 30, 2009.
How the Nicaraguan was able get a title shot is beyond me.
Mayorga lost 3 of his last 5 fights, his last being with Shane Mosley via KO, many will disagree with me, but I thought it was a pretty close fight. Two of the judges had Mayorga down by one. Pat Russell 105-104, Nelson Vazquez 104-105 and Tony Crebs 102-107.
The fight is taking place in Las Vegas, Mayorga as the main event and Andre Berto vs.. Juan Urango will be the co-main event and Alfredo Angulo against Kermit Cintron will be the third fight. No word if this will be a Pay-per-view or free on HBO. Stay tune for more info.
Antonio Margarito may have Kermit Cintron's number, but Alfredo Angulo isn't Antonio Margarito. I'm looking to see Angulo's first loss in coming months. I wonder if Cintron is the guy?
-Rick
Rick Cintron may be to small for Angulo, I too see Angulo losing some time this year.
In 15 bouts, Angulo has only fought a total of 52 rounds. He's already scarred up and I just can't get excited about anything he has to offer.
-Rick Farris
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Posted: 24 Mar 2009, 08:27
by kikibalt
Pirkle Jones, California photographer, dies at 95
Eric Luse / San Francisco Chronicle
Pirkle Jones, who studied under Ansel Adams, formed his artistic sensibility during a golden era in photography in the West.
He was admired for his images of migrant workers, endangered landscapes and social movements, including a controversial series on the Black Panthers at the height of their activism in the late 1960s.
By Elaine Woo
March 24, 2009
Pirkle Jones, a California photographer admired for his stirring images of migrant workers, endangered landscapes and social movements, including a controversial series on the Black Panthers at the height of their activism in the late 1960s, died March 15 in San Rafael. He was 95.
The cause was heart failure, said his assistant, Jennifer McFarland.
Jones' artistic sensibility was formed during a golden era in the history of photography in the West, when he joined the first class taught by Ansel Adams at the California School of Fine Arts (now the San Francisco Art Institute) in 1946.
His work over the next seven decades blended "the two strands of what California photography at a certain time was -- the strand typified by Ansel Adams and the strand typified by Dorothea Lange. . . . But his work was more overtly political," said Tim Wride, who curated a major Jones retrospective at the Santa Barbara Museum of Art in 2001 and wrote an essay for a book published the same year, "Pirkle Jones: California Photographs."
Jones' photographs had technical mastery and visual crispness reminiscent of Adams but also a strong sense of social purpose that made him a kindred spirit to Lange, the legendary Depression-era documentary photographer.
His best-known work includes a collaboration with Lange called "The Death of a Valley 1956," which portrayed the Berryessa Valley in Napa County during the year before completion of the Monticello Dam that flooded the valley; "Walnut Grove 1961," a series Jones shot with his wife, Ruth-Marion Baruch, which documents a dying Sacramento River town; and "Black Panthers 1968," also in collaboration with Baruch, which caused a furor for its sympathetic view of the black power movement.
"I think that Pirkle Jones is an artist in the best sense of the term," Adams once wrote of his student. "His statement is sound and resonant of the external world as well as of the internal responses and evaluations of his personality. His photography is not flamboyant, does not depend upon the superficial excitements. His pictures will live with you, and with the world, as long as there are people to observe and appreciate."
Jones was born in Shreveport, La., on Jan. 2, 1914. One of seven children in his family, he said his parents "ran out of names" and named him after "Dr. Pirkle," the physician who delivered him.
When he was 3, his family moved to an 80-acre farm in southern Indiana, which opened his eyes to nature. His family moved a few more times, and he graduated from high school in Lima, Ohio.
He was stunned by the beauty of photos by Alfred Stieglitz during a visit to a Cleveland gallery in the mid-1930s; the inspiration he found there stayed with him for a decade before he could act on it.
From 1933 to 1941, he worked in a shoe factory in Lima. Then he was drafted into the Army in 1941 and served in the South Pacific during World War II. When he was discharged in 1945, he decided to study photography on the GI Bill.
At the California School of Fine Art, he found himself in a creative community that included not only Adams but Lange, Edward Weston, Minor White and Imogen Cunningham. He became Adams' assistant in 1949 and taught at the school for 28 years, beginning in 1952.
He also met Baruch at the school, and they were married in 1949 at Adams' home in Yosemite. Baruch died in 1997. She and Jones had no children.
According to Wride, Jones and his mentor disagreed about the extent to which political concerns entered into Jones' art, but Jones saw the simple act of taking a photograph as a political act. "There's no such thing as objectivity," he once explained in an interview.
Jones, who with his wife belonged to the Peace and Freedom Party, made no secret of the fact that his purpose in photographing the Black Panthers was, as he told the San Francisco Chronicle in 2002, "to show them the way we saw them -- as human beings."
During the four months in 1968 that he and Baruch focused their lenses on the radical group, they produced a number of emblematic shots from the campaign to free Huey P. Newton, the Panther leader who was facing voluntary manslaughter charges for the murder of an Oakland police officer.
Jones captured the somber expressions in a crowd of people gathered under a tree at a rally, the front window of Panther headquarters in Oakland shattered by bullets that had been fired by Oakland police and a trio of Panther guards standing erect in black leather jackets and berets, waving "Free Huey" flags on the steps of the Alameda County courthouse.
Kathleen Cleaver, Eldridge Cleaver's wife and the party's communications secretary, instantly recognized the power of the last image and said "That's a poster!" Jones took the photo to a printer himself and brought back 1,000 posters.
The Panther photographic essay caused an uproar; even Adams advised Jones to drop the project. The controversy almost caused San Francisco's De Young Museum, which was mounting them in a show, to cancel the exhibition, but after union leaders and art critics intervened, the museum went ahead with its plans. The show drew 100,000 visitors.
"At that time, people were upset that we were doing this," Jones told The Times in 2004, when a new show featuring the photos opened at the 18th Street Arts Center in Santa Monica.
"I had professional clients who said, 'What in the world are you doing photographing Panthers?' I'd just sort of shrug my shoulders. I did not make a big speech about it. I did the talking through the photographs."
[email protected]
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Posted: 24 Mar 2009, 10:02
by scartissue
Guys, I don't know if you've seen it, but Raul Macias passed away yesterday. Anyone have any info on him or special memories???
Scartissue
