BoxRec

Collins2000 wrote:Now that gutless bitch Irene is sending me PMs.

Time to put her fat white ass on Ignore methinks.

Sadly, "ignore" does not block PMs.

raylawpc wrote:

Collins2000 wrote:Now that gutless bitch Irene is sending me PMs.

Time to put her fat white ass on Ignore methinks.

Sadly, "ignore" does not block PMs.

A pity.

Still, if the imbecile sends me any more I will forward them onto my mate "Shep".

Riiiight. In addition to your offer to take it (whatever it is, I still don't know) in person?

Go home, pretender.

I think BRR and I, and GI and Collins should all shake and make up. What do ya say?

(I can already hear the "no" and "you pussy")

I don't, in truth, have nearly as much a problem with Collins as vice-versa, so I doubt that'll happen.

Lets talk some boxing lads.

I Feel Fine wrote:Duh? Williams was 16-0 going into the Holmes fight, fighting tomato cans in nearly every fight... his best win before Holmes was Tillis, a UD... Clay had a pretty high KO rating going into the Liston fight, this doesn't make Ali a knock out artist... and Ali had much better knockout wins than Williams career for career...
You must be a big Alex Stewart fan.

Moore was on a knee and failed to beat the count. When you reach the count of ten, you don't get a second chance. Those are the rules... incredibly. I haven't heard this one since Lennox Lewis after the first Rahman fight.

Classless as usual in not acknowledging that you were wrong on the Spinks knockdown. Pure troll.

Robinson... Patterson's title reigns are BRR's red herring. He acknowledged himself in the other thread when he was free to that the majority of Patterson's most respectable performances came after his title reigns, he just knows not to say it here.

After his Liston losses he remade himself from scratch and actually started to learn the craft and the art of boxing. He became a more complete fighter who compiled an excellent post title record against the cream of the top 10

-BRR in a rarely lucid, unbiased state, which he has not had in this thread.

- Why Mr. Potty, thank you for this little poster of yourself demonstrating the massive sewage backup to your mental processes that has rendered your surviving brain cells an indelible stain of brown.

1. I'm telling you how the Williams fight was promoted with "The Truth" being one of the earliest highly profiled ESPN fighters in history. His KOs were quite dramatic and his showing against Holmes compelling enough to create a major controversy over the result.

2. Moore was not on his knee when waved off, he was up at the 8 sec mark just as he'd been previous. The ref shows some dramatically poor timing as he leaps forward with a flurry of popcorn trying get the fight stopped immediately as Arch looks at him in disbelief. Obviously poor officiating as he could care less about Archie's supposed "KOed" condition and more interested in running over to touch base with commish officials to coordinate the official explanation. Archie's team can't even get into the ring to come to him because they didn't want him DQed while the ref was adminstering the count.

3. How could I be wrong on the Spinks KDs when I acknowledged that it was possible there was a KD somewhere in the record but that the prevailing literature over the years has maintained he'd never been down in his career? I posted a supporting link, and you've posted your brown stained potty mouth. Heard a rumour the sewer and wastewater folk are looking to get your clogged system shut down.

4. You fail miserably in past, present, and forever in future time to understand that Spinks is a much higher ranked fighter than Floyd, period, and that he beat a better class of heavy to win his title, beating Holmes twice, and that Tyson beating both in such dramatic conclusive concussive fashion seldom seen in fistic history at this high level is better than any of Ali's first reign wins, again, the subject of the thread header which you've successively failed at.

I bolstered MY OPINION with independent consensus opinions showing the high IBRO ranking of Spinks and Holmes as well as the context of their ring veracity at those points in time. Floyd unranked and unmentioned. Further, just to frost that indelible brown stain upon your brain, Ring ranked Spinks as the 41st greatest of 80 greats of the previous 80 yrs(2002) and the 42nd greatest puncher in their 100 greatest puncher list (2003). Floyd, again, unranked and unmentioned.

Floyd becoming a better more competitive fighter after a very weak title reign doesn't automatically make him better than Spinks. Floyd was lucky to hold his own against Ellis, Machen, Bonavena, Chuvalo, Quarry, in short, being a decent era contender in the mix, a real tribute given how shaky his chin and balance were through out his career. Poor guy went down on his own against 45 yr old Moore as a prelude to the histrionics of his career highlights of hitting the deck.

Robinson wrote:Lets talk some boxing lads.

Always happy to talk boxing with you and IFF.

Not interested in rolling in the mud any more with ridiculous twats like BRR and Irene.

Putting them on ignore was the best thing I did today. I recommend it.

I am determined to have BRR say something nice about
Holmes.

And for GI to aknowldge that Holmes would beat Foreman..
whether it be in the 1970s or 1990s ;)

Robinson wrote:I am determined to have BRR say something nice about
Holmes.

And for GI to aknowldge that Holmes would beat Foreman..
whether it be in the 1970s or 1990s ;)

'Experts' like those two clowns aren't open to discussion.

They already know all there is to know.

Anyway, you know Holmes was a great fighter. I know Holmes was a great fighter. In fact, anyone who knows anything about boxing and doesn't base their views solely on a fighter's personality knows Holmes was a great fighter. What does it matter what those two fools 'think'?

But as a Holmes fanboy, I demand everyone's recognition of his
greatness.

Robinson wrote:But as a Holmes fanboy, I demand everyone's recognition of his
greatness.

Too many ignorant nutters on here for you to get your wish.

Anyway, time to watch the boys retain the ashes now. Looking forward to the next england batting collapse...

Collins2000 wrote: Not interested in rolling in the mud any more with ridiculous twats like BRR and Irene.

Putting them on ignore was the best thing I did today. I recommend it.

- Oh dear, little puppy collie done slipped his leash again and and running up with is moist little puppy nose to perfect strangers for a good kick.

Brilliant job of ignoring me on my own thread there collie. Kinda reinforces why little puppies don't even need toilet paper when their little puppy faces fit quite nicely into their nether regions for a languid tongue wash..........just BRILLIANT!!!!!!!!!!

Cricket is daft mate ! ;)

I have to stand my ground with Holmes. Besides work and
training this and you tube are my only hang outs. I am the
ultimate bachelor geek.

BRR
Say a nice thing about Holmes......now..... go !

I have always acknowledged Holmes' greatness as a fighter (okay, not as willingly as I've acknowledged his capacity as an asshole, but, still D ) & I'll always maintain a fight between the Foreman of 73-74 & the Holmes of 78-82 would've been about a 50-50 fight. I truly can envision either man winning that, for their own reasons.

However, I don't see any realistic way Holmes beats Foreman between, say, 1990-1994. Here, Holmes can't move, anymore, but Foreman can still punch. I think he beats Holmes every time. Sorry, Rob.

I've been critical of Holmes in the past but I always rated him a top four all time Heavyweight. I don't think his greatness should be in question.
BRR: Alex Stewart was awesome, wasn't he? He really hit those tomato cans hard. I wonder where his "knockout artistry" went when he faced Tyson and Holyfield? Williams had mostly knock outs in his extensive sixteen fight career before he fought Holmes, though he also went the distance with a couple of stiffs, but when he stepped up he showed average power and was unable to stop Tillis or an old Holmes. His best stoppages were against Cooper and Ferguson. He could punch but he was not a knock out artist, any more than a young Clay was, and advertising him as such shows your dishonesty. You must really love Chavez Jr.
It's usually easy to nitpick the count- the last refuge of the boxing fan who needs to find an excuse for the loser- they are rarely perfect. I'm sure you can find mistakes in at least the majority of counts in any knock down. But at the end of the day it is at the ref's discretion, when he says its ten its ten. Moore was counted out and it is a knock out, not a technical knock out, in the record books. Moore doesn't get a second chance to "adjust" after being counted out, this is not even boxing 101. Saying that the losing fighter was upset at the ref is redundant because all losing fighters are upset at the ref, the judges, the promoters, the towel boy... you would know if you knew boxing.
BRR... I'm not going to respond to your comments about Patterson until you show me one, any post where I stated that Patterson's opposition in his two title reigns was impressive or where I even referenced to it to defend his greatness. I never did, you are using a straw man. The only mention I made to his youth was his title winning knockout of Moore, which trumps decisions over Qawi or weight drained Muhammad. What I stated was that you cannot judge the dominance of a small Heavyweight to the dominance of a huge Light Heavyweight.
BRR is proud to ignore facts. Immaturity and inane ad hominem's that are not particularly clever will make up for that, he believes.

I Feel Fine wrote:BRR... I'm not going to respond to your comments about Patterson until you show me one, any post where I stated that Patterson's opposition in his two title reigns was impressive or where I even referenced to it to defend his greatness. I never did, you are using a straw man. The only mention I made to his youth was his title winning knockout of Moore, which trumps decisions over Qawi or weight drained Muhammad. What I stated was that you cannot judge the dominance of a small Heavyweight to the dominance of a huge Light Heavyweight.
BRR is proud to ignore facts. Immaturity and inane ad hominem's that are not particularly clever will make up for that, he believes.

- Those indelible brown stained cranial neurons make all your posts particularly odorous.

This is what you specifically stated when comparing Spinks to Patterson:

Qawi knocked Spinks down, and it hardly matters that Spinks only had one knockdown at Light Heavyweight because he was at Light Heavyweight, this proves nothing in terms of his having a better chin than Patterson as a Heavyweight, and even if Spinks did have a better chin Patterson was superior in other fields. If Patterson had stayed at Light Heavyweight he would have had at least as dominant a run as Spinks, instead he fought most of his career at Heavyweight against bigger men while Spinks spent most of his career at 175 against smaller men. Trying to say that Spinks is a better Heavyweight than Patterson is such incredible stupidity, even you don't believe this when you suggest it.

Looks like you got a case of the runs with that massive spray of verbiage.

Floyd fought 24 fights against 190 or above opposition out of 64 fights, going 16-7-1 against said opposition. That's hardly most of his career against bigger men given the ring weights of most of Spink's opposition is comparable to most of Floyd's. Floyd fought 14 at 200+ lbs, going 6-7-1 against said opposition compared to Spinks' record of 4-1.

My little brown stained miscreant, Spinks doesn't have to prove he's got the better chin and balance any more than I have to prove the sun rose in the east this AM, he just does as sure as it does. Additionally, Holmes twice and Cooney are superior to any of Floyd's title or non title heavy wins.

Patterson would be an average sized LH had he chose that route. Spinks is the bigger man period at every phase down to him simply having a much larger frame that settled out at a much higher weight at heavy. Sorry, but beating a prime Qawi and Eddie Gregory is much superior to beating a 45 yr old legacy name in Moore who was quite fortunate to finish is career in a weak LH division not unlike Mr. Popkins finding a soft place in today's 40 yr old LH division.

If YOU want to rank Floyd higher at heavy, fine, but that's just YOU with no supporting data or consensus. Spinks should be properly compared to Tunney as far as they way his LH and heavy careers go. He just didn't get the credit Gene got from beating one of the greatest, most feared heavies in history. Spinks does garner more respect than Floyd who lacks the Ring and Ibro ranking credentials of Spinks.

Robinson wrote:Cricket is daft mate ! ;)

I have to stand my ground with Holmes. Besides work and
training this and you tube are my only hang outs. I am the
ultimate bachelor geek.

BRR
Say a nice thing about Holmes......now..... go !

Here's a suggestion.

On Youtube there is a complete recording of Ali vs Young, split into several parts to accomodate the max 10 min size rule.

If you like, we could watch a round and then post how we scored the round.

I have done it before with real fans (ie not nonses like BRR and Lard Arse), and it was quite enligtening.

Doesn't have to be Ali - Young. Any fight as long as it is complete and good quality.

Have a think about it.

People just don't get any dumber than BRR.
First of all, according to boxrec, Patterson fought 30 fights against 190 or above opponents, not 24. Most of his losses came as an older fighter against younger men, and his loss to Ellis was at least controversial. He defended his loss to Johannson with two knock outs. Patterson spent four of his nineteen years at 160 and 175, and as I already said he had no knock downs or knock outs against that smaller opposition and was undefeated outside of one very controversial loss against a hall of famer when he was 13-0, most of the sports writers had Floyd winning. If you're trying to prove my point about Patterson's dominance against men closer to his size then be my guest. What I have been saying is that most of Patterson's career, most of his years fighting against top names, came against bigger men. With the exception of his loss to Quarry, where Floyd was again past his prime, Floyd never lost a fight to a fighter his size. Spinks' dominance at 175 against smaller opposition does not make him better than Patterson, none of those men he beat would have beaten Patterson. Spinks' great record at 175 has no bearing on his qualifications as a Heavyweight, you don't get to say that a Light Heavyweight with a great record is automatically a great Heavyweight. Spinks was a great Light Heavyweight, he was a mediocre Heavyweight champion who beat a very old great champion. Patterson had more losses and more knock downs, but this is the inevitable product of him facing bigger men for a longer period than Spinks did. Spinks only had five fights at Heavyweight.
Patterson was at least as good as Spinks, but he was in with bigger men for most of his years as an elite level fighter. Patterson spent most of his years at Heavyweight and accumulated a better resume as a Heavyweight than Spinks did. You can't rest on three wins against old fighters. Michael can keep his win over the old has-been drugged up inactive Cooney, I think most people would take the controversial draw with Quarry.
KO'ing Archie Moore, who would remain champion for another few years, is more impressive than a close decision over a weight drained Muhammad. Period. Moore was the greatest Light Heavyweight champion of all time and Paterson was only 21. It's more impressive than beating Qawi in another close decision, though perhaps we can say that is closer, Qawi was in good shape.
I could just as easily dismiss Spinks' wins over Holmes as a "legacy name" opponent, who should have been given the decision the second time, I might add, though I admit that Spinks was under the weather as you fairly pointed out in another thread. I don't doubt that Patterson at his best wins a close SD over that old version of Holmes. I could be wrong, of course, but by the same token I don't see Spinks doing any better against Liston. And I never said that Spinks didn't have a better chin than Patterson, I said that you have to take into consideration the opponents they were fighting but I did not deny that Spinks' chin was probably better; what I said was that Patterson was the bigger puncher and that Patterson was a superior combination puncher with better hand speed.
Tell us more about Williams' tomato can knock outs and Tyrell Biggs being a bigger, stronger Ali. Very interesting. I must maintain however that Trevor Berbick should have been given a second chance after he was counted out... I wasn't aware of this until BRR pointed it out, but being counted out apparently doesn't automatically mean that you lose. Corrupt ref. Berbick could have came back.

Collins2000 wrote:

Robinson wrote:Cricket is daft mate ! ;)

I have to stand my ground with Holmes. Besides work and
training this and you tube are my only hang outs. I am the
ultimate bachelor geek.

BRR
Say a nice thing about Holmes......now..... go !

Here's a suggestion.

On Youtube there is a complete recording of Ali vs Young, split into several parts to accomodate the max 10 min size rule.

If you like, we could watch a round and then post how we scored the round.

I have done it before with real fans (ie not nonses like BRR and Lard Arse), and it was quite enligtening.

Doesn't have to be Ali - Young. Any fight as long as it is complete and good quality.

Have a think about it.

Done mate./
This weekend ? I am just training and watching boxing so that would be cool.
Ali vs Young it is...i have yet to score that and have yet to watch it for ages.

Patterson is my second favourite fighter after Holmes.
He had his weaknesses, but these were made up for
by his character. I always enjoy watching him fight.

As much as Id like to imagine it, I can not envision him
beating some of the men Tyson fought in his title reign.

Some would beat him, sure, but I would favor him over the majority.

I see him struggling against Berbick. Perhaps winning.

I see him struggling with Smith. It can either be Floyd being KOd
or Smith being out scored ala Marvis Frazier.

Thomas, I can see Thomas working behind the jab and winning,
maybe we see an Ellis-Patterson sort of fight.

Tucker, I can see him stopping Floyd despite some good spurts
by Patterson.

Biggs, this would be a like the Ellis affair, except Biggs is bigger
and makes it harder for Floyd to adjust.

Holmes, I see older Holmes working behind a jab and troubling
Floyd. Later rounds Patterson catches up, but it is Holmes his
back to the ropes that does well. Holmes wins a decision.

Tubbs, I see the fat man looking good and moving, Floyd cutting
him down later on. This could be a decision either way if Tubbs
makes Floyd carry his weight.

Spinks, I imagine a Patterson-Spnks fight to be awesome! I can
see it going the distance, Id pick Floyd.

Bruno, This is a hard one. Bruno is a big strong guy who has the
goods to put Floyd away early. I can see this being the case, but
if it goes later and Patterson survives I can see him staying in it
BUT i do favour Bruno.

Williams. I do not see Floyd blitzing him, but I can see it as a Williams-
Cooper fight, with perhaps Floyd winning. Then agains Williams had
good size and skill to find Pattersons chin.

Douglas, This is a hard one again. I can see either man winning this one.
But on that night Douglas looked great.

Robinson wrote:Done mate./
This weekend ? I am just training and watching boxing so that would be cool.
Ali vs Young it is...i have yet to score that and have yet to watch it for ages.

It's a deal!

Robinson wrote:I see him struggling against Berbick. Perhaps winning.

I see him struggling with Smith. It can either be Floyd being KOd
or Smith being out scored ala Marvis Frazier.

Thomas, I can see Thomas working behind the jab and winning,
maybe we see an Ellis-Patterson sort of fight.

Tucker, I can see him stopping Floyd despite some good spurts
by Patterson.

Biggs, this would be a like the Ellis affair, except Biggs is bigger
and makes it harder for Floyd to adjust.

Holmes, I see older Holmes working behind a jab and troubling
Floyd. Later rounds Patterson catches up, but it is Holmes his
back to the ropes that does well. Holmes wins a decision.

Tubbs, I see the fat man looking good and moving, Floyd cutting
him down later on. This could be a decision either way if Tubbs
makes Floyd carry his weight.

Spinks, I imagine a Patterson-Spnks fight to be awesome! I can
see it going the distance, Id pick Floyd.

Bruno, This is a hard one. Bruno is a big strong guy who has the
goods to put Floyd away early. I can see this being the case, but
if it goes later and Patterson survives I can see him staying in it
BUT i do favour Bruno.

Williams. I do not see Floyd blitzing him, but I can see it as a Williams-
Cooper fight, with perhaps Floyd winning. Then agains Williams had
good size and skill to find Pattersons chin.

Douglas, This is a hard one again. I can see either man winning this one.
But on that night Douglas looked great.

- Appreciate that you're one of the few to take the challenge, but Floyd fares poorly against modern title challengers who are significantly bigger and stronger and better quality than what he's used to in his title reign.

The original premise of the thread header was to match era competition rather than the champs themselves to demonstrate the massive change underway in the heavy division from the 60s to the 80s and beyond.

Proved to be logistically impossible for most on this board to grasp.

Now, I tell you what would be a premium bout if you want to create a new header. Floyd vs Fitz. Modern youthful bob and weave leaping left hook KO artist against savvy experienced upright counter puncher KO artist. Good contrast of eras.