BoxRec

Il Duce wrote:Young Jack, chased Jess Willard for 2+ Years.

Jess used every excuse to avoid 'Young Jack', and was finally cornered
when he could run no more.

He knew he was in for a beating, as Jack was unbeatable.

Jess asked for a rematch, but only half-heartily, as he was only looking for
a decent fight purse before retiring to his farm.

Cassius Clay/Muhammad Ali never gave anyone close to a bad beating.

Never, he just wasn't on Jack's level for ferocity.

He didn't need to nor did he need to bring foreign objects into the ring to beat klutzes like Jess Willard. I'm not convinced a Jess Willard would have made the top ten hw list in the 70s. It's an open question.

you dont know what youre talking about. jack didnt become the top contender until july 1918. the war was on, jess didnt need an excuse, the title was frozen just like it was in ww2. the armistice was signed in nov 1918. the willard fight was being negotiated in january. signed shortly thereafter and promoted all spring for a july showdown. explain to me exactly how and when willard ducked dempsey.

klompton wrote:you dont know what youre talking about. jack didnt become the top contender until july 1918. the war was on, jess didnt need an excuse, the title was frozen just like it was in ww2. the armistice was signed in nov 1918. the willard fight was being negotiated in january. signed shortly thereafter and promoted all spring for a july showdown. explain to me exactly how and when willard ducked dempsey.

Could you please convince me Willard was a great fighter?

that would be impossible as willard was not a great fighter. ever. when he defended against dempsey he was an overweight middle aged man who hadnt fought in two years and trained like he didnt care to ever fight again. hardly a great win.

klompton wrote:that would be impossible as willard was not a great fighter. ever. when he defended against dempsey he was an overweight middle aged man who hadnt fought in two years and trained like he didnt care to ever fight again. hardly a great win.

But that's Dempsey's signature win.

It would be analogous to saying Ali's fourth round TKO of the Old Mongoose was his signature win. However Archie Moore was an elite boxer in his prime.

and thats why its called boxing, not knockout.

conversely dempsey wouldnt have fought, much less beaten, guys like frazier, liston, and foreman, by ko or on points. would ali have struggled with bill brennan? would ali have been knocked down three times and out of the ring against firpo? would ali have been wobbled by 172 pound georges carpentier? not bloody likely.

klompton wrote:and thats why its called boxing, not knockout.

conversely dempsey wouldnt have fought, much less beaten, guys like frazier, liston, and foreman, by ko or on points. would ali have struggled with bill brennan? would ali have been knocked down three times and out of the ring against firpo? would ali have been wobbled by 172 pound georges carpentier? not bloody likely.

I believe Muhammad Ali fought the light heavyweight champion and knocked him down eight times. He didn't lose two bouts to him and nineteen out of twenty rounds.


The more I learn about Dempsey I'm reminded of the Liberty Valance principle. When the truth conflicts with the legend , print the legend.

Il Duce wrote:Would Jack Dempsey,

* Struggle with Doug Jones (Dempsey might very well have got outpointed)
* Got his ass knocked on the canvas by Henry Cooper (See Above)
* Got his eyes blinded by old man Sonny Liston and nearly quit. (The Liston win is the third biggest win on Ali's resume but would be the biggest win on Dempsey's resume but it's moot because Demsey couldn't beat him.)
* Claim that an 'anchor punch' was taught to him by an Old Vaudeville Comic (Dempsey wasn't witty enough)
* Taken 12-Rounds to defeat bad-back and weak-chinned Floyd Patterson ( Ses Jones and Cooper remarK)
* Unable to make George Chuvalo to take a single backwards step for 15-Rounds. (See Jones, Cooper, and Patterson remarks)
* Defend his Title against Brian London.......Yikes (That would be a signature win for Dempsey.)
* Lose another 4-Rounds against Henry Cooper, before getting a cut TKO win ( Ali won at leave sight of the eleven rounds against Cooper.)
* Take 12 Rounds to stop Karl Mildenberger (Might have been Dempsey's toughest win)
* Unable to floor or hurt Ernie Terrell after hitting him with everything (See Jones, Cooper,Chuvalo and Patterson remarks)
* Cleveland Williams............Cassius looked good against a bad-legged/shot old warhorse. (Might have been Dempsey's second toughest win)
* Zora Folley.......................Cassius was good against 'Old' cement-boots Zora (See Jones, Cooper< Chuvalo Terrell, and Patterson remarks)


Shall we continue........

I do think if he loaded up his gloves Dempsey might eke out a victory against Richard Dunn and Jean Pierre Coopman.

This is Dempsey's signature victim:

This is Ali's signature victim:

* Struggle with Doug Jones
* Got his ass knocked on the canvas by Henry Cooper
* Got his eyes blinded by old man Sonny Liston and nearly quit.
* Claim that an 'anchor punch' was taught to him by an Old Vaudeville Comic
* Taken 12-Rounds to defeat bad-back and weak-chinned Floyd Patterson
* Unable to make George Chuvalo to take a single backwards step for 15-Rounds.
* Defend his Title against Brian London.......Yikes
* Lose another 4-Rounds against Henry Cooper, before getting a cut TKO win
* Take 12 Rounds to stop Karl Mildenberger
* Unable to floor or hurt Ernie Terrell after hitting him with everything
* Cleveland Williams............Cassius looked good against a bad-legged/shot old warhorse.
* Zora Folley.......................Cassius was good against 'Old' cement-boots Zora




considering most of those guys were better than anyone jack fought id say its all within the realm of possibility. but since you want to argue a green ali vs a prime dempsey: would ali have been cold cocked in 1 like dempsey was against flynn? had his ribs caved in by j. k. johnson? would ali have been floored nine time on 1 rd by middleweight johnny sudenberg? would ali have gone life and death with human punching bag terry keller? would ali have gone 1-0-2 with mediocre al norton? would ali have gone 1-1-2 with obese willie meehan who turned pro at 98 pounds? yeah. i didnt think so. you can keep going but there is absolutely no comparison between the two and we can keep coming back to dempseys protected, color sensitive record as champ vs alis stellar record as champ. hell you bash zora folley who was the #1 contender. a black #1 contender is something dempsey avoided like the plague for 7 yrs. that right there bumps him to the back of the bus as far as im concerned.


* Struggle with Doug Jones: Yes Dempsey probably would have struggled with Doug Jones when he was 21, seeing as how he struggled with lesser fighters later in his career.

* Got his ass knocked on the canvas by Henry Cooper: Yes seeing as how he was knocked out by a lesser fighter when he was 22, a year older than Ali when he was dropped and still defeated Cooper.

* Got his eyes blinded by old man Sonny Liston and nearly quit: Yes, being blinded by linament can happen to anyone. Thats not Ali's fault its the mob connected Liston's. To Ali's credit he continued the fight and won convincingly when the cheater quit, not ali.

* Claim that an 'anchor punch' was taught to him by an Old Vaudeville Comic: Considering Dempsey told numerous lies about his career Id say this is a yes.

* Taken 12-Rounds to defeat bad-back and weak-chinned Floyd Patterson: I dont see why not. It took him 12 rounds to stop Bill Brennan and Dempsey was actually trying unlike Ali who was carrying Patterson. He couldnt stop Gibbons who was smaller than Patterson and not as fast. So, yes, I could easily see Dempsey not stopping Patterson. I could see Dempsey losing to Patterson. Most likely Dempsey would have avoided Patterson seeing as how he is a very talented black heavyweight.

* Unable to make George Chuvalo to take a single backwards step for 15-Rounds: I might pick Chuvalo to beat Dempsey. At the very least very few people made Chuvalo take a backward step so no, I dont see that as out of the realm of possibility either.

* Defend his Title against Brian London.......Yikes: He defended his title against Billy Miske. Thats worse.

* Lose another 4-Rounds against Henry Cooper, before getting a cut TKO win: Im not surprised you think Cooper actually won four rounds against Ali. It pretty much typifies your biased approach to Ali. Im sure you think Floyd Patterson won 12 rounds against him as well.

* Take 12 Rounds to stop Karl Mildenberger. Yes he might. Mildenberger was at least as good as the overprotected Bill Brennan.

* Unable to floor or hurt Ernie Terrell after hitting him with everything: Lets see. Dempsey was scared shitless to face a 6'2" 220 pound black #1 contender. You think that not only is he going to face a 6'5" mobile, talented, black hw contender but that hes going to do better against him than Ali? I wish Dempsey had as much faith in his ability as you.

* Cleveland Williams............Cassius looked good against a bad-legged/shot old warhorse: See Billy Miske.

* Zora Folley.......................Cassius was good against 'Old' cement-boots Zora: Yeah old cement boots was his #1 contender. Something Dempsey failed to ever fight in his 7 years as champion. Nice try asshat. Maybe you should actually read about Dempsey instead of just listening to what your daddy told you and what you read in his old nat fleischer love letters. You might redirect some of your vitriol.

ThatOne wrote:This is Ali's signature victim:

That picture of willard doesnt even tell the full story as that picture was taken when willard was relatively young and still in his prime. Not a fat old inactive man.

klompton wrote:considering most of those guys were better than anyone jack fought id say its all within the realm of possibility. but since you want to argue a green ali vs a prime dempsey: would ali have been cold cocked in 1 like dempsey was against flynn? had his ribs caved in by j. k. johnson? would ali have been floored nine time on 1 rd by middleweight johnny sudenberg? would ali have gone life and death with human punching bag terry keller? would ali have gone 1-0-2 with mediocre al norton? would ali have gone 1-1-2 with obese willie meehan who turned pro at 98 pounds? yeah. i didnt think so. you can keep going but there is absolutely no comparison between the two and we can keep coming back to dempseys protected, color sensitive record as champ vs alis stellar record as champ. hell you bash zora folley who was the #1 contender. a black #1 contender is something dempsey avoided like the plague for 7 yrs. that right there bumps him to the back of the bus as far as im concerned.

I didn't know Dempsey fought a 98 pound guy. Who sanctioned that? (SARCASM)

I imagine all of Ali's opponents weighed 98 pounds at one time, that one time being when they were in grade school.

klompton wrote:considering most of those guys were better than anyone jack fought id say its all within the realm of possibility. but since you want to argue a green ali vs a prime dempsey: would ali have been cold cocked in 1 like dempsey was against flynn? had his ribs caved in by j. k. johnson? would ali have been floored nine time on 1 rd by middleweight johnny sudenberg? would ali have gone life and death with human punching bag terry keller? would ali have gone 1-0-2 with mediocre al norton? would ali have gone 1-1-2 with obese willie meehan who turned pro at 98 pounds? yeah. i didnt think so. you can keep going but there is absolutely no comparison between the two and we can keep coming back to dempseys protected, color sensitive record as champ vs alis stellar record as champ. hell you bash zora folley who was the #1 contender. a black #1 contender is something dempsey avoided like the plague for 7 yrs. that right there bumps him to the back of the bus as far as im concerned.

I understand there wasn't much of a box office for colored, read African American , fighter's beating up white fighters but as a true sportsman Dempsey should have given them a chance.

Did Ali make a habit of ducking white fighters?

Harry Wills was one of the highest paid fighters of the era. He fought on the undercard of Harry Greb's title defense against WW champion Mickey Walker and made more than either Greb or Walker. A fight between Wills and Dempsey would have made any of Dempsey's other box office fights look minuscule.

klompton wrote:Harry Wills was one of the highest paid fighters of the era. He fought on the undercard of Harry Greb's title defense against WW champion Mickey Walker and made more than either Greb or Walker.

Then that makes Dempsey's actions even worse.

The point was that Meehan was not a natural heavyweight. In fact he was overweight as a middleweight. Yet a guy who was probably more of a natural welterweight outboxed Dempsey in 2 four rounds and drew with him in two more. Dempsey's fans always say "yeah but they were only four rounders" Sorry but that excuse doesnt hold water. The first four rounds of every fight belonged to Dempsey just like they belonged to Tyson. Its not like Dempsey was some marathon runner style fighter who expected to see the late rounds. He went after a guy early and yet Meehan owned those rounds against Dempsey.

klompton wrote:The point was that Meehan was not a natural heavyweight. In fact he was overweight as a middleweight. Yet a guy who was probably more of a natural welterweight outboxed Dempsey in 2 four rounds and drew with him in two more. Dempsey's fans always say "yeah but they were only four rounders" Sorry but that excuse doesnt hold water. The first four rounds of every fight belonged to Dempsey just like they belonged to Tyson. Its not like Dempsey was some marathon runner style fighter who expected to see the late rounds. He went after a guy early and yet Meehan owned those rounds against Dempsey.

I read that Dempsey openly admitted to ducking Sam Langford "because he was scared of him". Is that correct?

Thats what he said.

^^^ That's unreal I would never think someone like Jack would admit to that.

JACK DEMPSEY,NEW HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION, ANNOUNCES HE WILL DRAW THE COLOR LINE

Dempsey will only meet white boxers.

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-fr ... 5F4D8185F9

Il Duce wrote:Mr.That One,


Did Cassius Clay make habit of 'ducking' White Fighters..........

I think he went out of his way to be with 'White Guys'.............

1964 thru 1967 Reign

* Floyd Patterson
* George Chuvalo
* Brian London
* Henry Cooper
* Karl Mildenberger

or 'Old Black Guys'

* Sonny Liston {x2}
* Cleveland Williams
* Zora Folley

* Only Ernie Terrell was a capable opponent, a 'superior mediocre' fighter.

Every one of them would be favorites or live dogs against Dempsey.

p4p1 wrote:^^^ That's unreal I would never think someone like Jack would admit to that.

"The hell I feared no man. There was one man I wouldn’t fight because I knew he would flatten me. I was afraid of Sam Langford.” -- Jack Dempsey

Just remember that when Muhammad Ali fought George Foreman , George Foreman was coming off wins over Joe Frazier that he knocked down six times on his way to a second round TKO and ken Norton who he almost knocked out of the ring on his way to a second round TKO and Ali was unable to even score a knockdown against either boxer in fifty one rounds of boxing.

Il Duce wrote:Sam Langford 'Slaps' Cassius Clay Silly.

In a Louisville, Kentucky sparring session, Sam Langford beat the 'tar'
out of Cassius Clay.

The #1 Contender admitted that he was not the #1 Challenger no more,
and that he was stepping aside to let Sam Langford fight Sonny Liston.

True Story

"...I was afraid of Sam Langford..."

Manassas Mauler, my derriere... Ole Yeller is more like it.

Il Duce wrote:Sam Langford 'Slaps' Cassius Clay Silly.

In a Louisville, Kentucky sparring session, Sam Langford beat the 'tar'
out of Cassius Clay.

The #1 Contender admitted that he was not the #1 Challenger no more,
and that he was stepping aside to let Sam Langford fight Sonny Liston.

True Story

BTW, Langford died in 1956. Did he spar with this kid?





The kid would be a live dog against Dempsey, though.