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Re: Cassius Clay, "I'm Fighting Uncle Tom Patterson'

Posted: 09 Oct 2013, 16:30
by loaded_gloves
Il Duce wrote:
gilgamesh wrote:
Il Duce wrote:Mr G,

I have been a good person my whole life, and have never done anything 'intentionally'
to hurt someone, because I know the difference between right and wrong, good and evil.

Now, when you intentionally go out of your way to hurt someone to the core, and are
out to damage their heart, and make the them the target of your cruel jokes.

Then, you are a 'Class A Jerk', a selfish manipulative bastard, like some people.

I fear that a 'certain someone' will not be met with open arms when he leaves this
Earth, but will first be met by 'The Grim Reaper'.

Quite possibly, he has met 'The Grim Reaper' while he's on Earth now, who is torturing
him with pain that he inflicted on others, when he knew better.
Schadenfreude
More of a 'self-prescribed' Retributive Justice.

"Thou shalt not felt healed, until I have felt the true consequences of my sins."
Ah the classic religious type. At one with 'God' and yet hateful, judgmental, and without mercy.

So much has been explained with this post by Mussolini/Beaujack/Granberry/Yancey.

Re: Cassius Clay, "I'm Fighting Uncle Tom Patterson'

Posted: 09 Oct 2013, 16:30
by gilgamesh
loaded_gloves wrote:


It would be fun for a Mod to check the IP addresses of these 'three' users and see if they were one and the same.
yancey's been here a long time so I doubt he's in on any shenanigans like that. I don't recall ever seeing beaujack until I started seeing Il Duce though.

Re: Cassius Clay, "I'm Fighting Uncle Tom Patterson'

Posted: 09 Oct 2013, 16:32
by ThatOne
"It would be fun for a Mod to check the IP addresses of these 'three' users and see if they were one and the same."

They have three distinct personalities. I don't think so. I think Il Duce is the funniest, yancey is the most earnest, and beau is the angriest.

Re: Cassius Clay, "I'm Fighting Uncle Tom Patterson'

Posted: 09 Oct 2013, 16:36
by ThatOne
Il Duce wrote:I wouldn't say that Floyd's 'paper friends' threw him under the Bus.

Alot of people in Las Vegas were 'pissed' that Floyd got into the Ring with a 'bad back',
instead of asking for a postponement.

He was destined to perform miserably, and he hid the injury because of the 'money'
he was getting.

The Patterson Camp asked for a 'delay', but were told that if he didn't go through with
the fight in November 1965, he would never get another fight with Cassius {as per I-C-P}
the fight promoters.
According to the book you cited and people on this board hate when I bring it up but Floyd threw out his back when he missed Ali with looping left hook. That will happen. Floyd was a good fighter but he was too small for Ali. I don't think any version of him really troubles him.

Re: Cassius Clay, "I'm Fighting Uncle Tom Patterson'

Posted: 09 Oct 2013, 16:40
by ThatOne
Floyd is one of my favorite fighters because he was a gentleman kind of like the Golden Boy despite his recent foibles. But we need to see things as they are and not how we would like them to be.

My favorites

Ali
SRL
Big George
Lennox Lewis
DLH

Re: Cassius Clay, "I'm Fighting Uncle Tom Patterson'

Posted: 09 Oct 2013, 16:43
by ThatOne
No disrespect to my friend/opponent Il Duce but I don't think him and beau are the same poster; one uses ellipsis points correctly and the other doesn't. Plus their writing styles are really dissimilar.

Re: Cassius Clay, "I'm Fighting Uncle Tom Patterson'

Posted: 09 Oct 2013, 16:59
by ThatOne
Il Duce wrote:Mr. That One,

If I didn't know any better, that was a 'compliment'.

Floyd's back issue,,,,,,,a hot topic for debate.......

Much like,,,,,, which Round did Kenny Norton 'break' Muhammad Ali's jaw.

Floyd had to take a break from Training at the Thunderbird Hotel, when his back
went out.

Not sure of the date, but it was about a week before the fight.

Also, 'King' Jimmy Fletcher and Mel Turnbow each floored Floyd in sparring-sessions,
which further aggravated his lower-back.

All the more reason for his friends to give Floyd the benefit of the doubt. Muhammad Ali did. He even pulled his punches to spare Floyd additional damage. Ali wasn't a banger but he could cut or swell his opponent up like no other. Floyd's face was relatively unmarked.

Re: Cassius Clay, "I'm Fighting Uncle Tom Patterson'

Posted: 09 Oct 2013, 17:45
by yancey
"Il Duce, What you write is factual, but there are some posters who don't want to know the insults their hero spouted those days, hurting other people who NEVER hurt him...Those days I remember vividly, and Clay was cruel to his opponents taunting them in victory in front of thousands of people,
and acting like an insensitive bully...He started a cult ,and he could do no wrong... What he called one decent man Joe Frazier was shameful and despicable, but today his followers wish to forget about
all this, because of misguided hero worship...Kudos for you for your correct stance on this thread..." Beaujack

"I also remember those days well and you have it exactly right." Yancey



"It would be fun for a Mod to check the IP addresses of these 'three' users and see if they were one and the same." Loaded Gloves






I am completely unrelated to Beaujack and Il Duce, though they are intelligent guys and are making excellent points.

On the other hand, Loaded Gloves, you are the typical starry eyed goofball jackass who doesn't want to know the real truth about your hero.

Have a nice day.

Re: Cassius Clay, "I'm Fighting Uncle Tom Patterson'

Posted: 09 Oct 2013, 17:50
by yancey
Joe Frazier's kids had an absolutely terrible time at school and were subject to endless taunts about their Father being a "Gorilla".

All thanks to a certain "Sportsman".

Re: Cassius Clay, "I'm Fighting Uncle Tom Patterson'

Posted: 09 Oct 2013, 18:29
by ThatOne
Res ipsa loquitur:

Greats pay respect to Joe Frazier

PHILADELPHIA -- With his championship belt and a pair of gloves draped over his casket, Joe Frazier was going one more round.

The Rev. Jesse Jackson asked mourners to rise, put their hands together and for one last time "show your love" for the former heavyweight champion.

Muhammad Ali obliged.

Wearing a dark suit and sunglasses, a frail and trembling Ali rose from his seat and vigorously clapped for "Smokin' Joe," the fighter who handed Ali his first loss.

Ali was among the nearly 4,000 people who packed the Enon Tabernacle Baptist Church for a two-hour "joyful celebration" of Frazier's life. He died last week of liver cancer; he was 67. Also attending were former heavyweight champion Larry Holmes and promoter Don King.

His body ravaged by Parkinson's disease, Ali was accompanied by members of his family and wife, Lonnie, who rubbed his back while he was seated and held his hands as he entered and left the church.

http://espn.go.com/boxing/story/_/id/72 ... g-respects

Re: Cassius Clay, "I'm Fighting Uncle Tom Patterson'

Posted: 09 Oct 2013, 19:14
by Giancarlo
yancey wrote:"Il Duce, What you write is factual
To people who live in an alternate reality.

Like you, Nance.

How many times have you posted that garbage that Foreman only beat Frazier because he cheated?

I think you actually believe it; you daft old bugger!

:lol:

Re: Cassius Clay, "I'm Fighting Uncle Tom Patterson'

Posted: 09 Oct 2013, 20:09
by yancey
Giancarlo wrote:
yancey wrote:"Il Duce, What you write is factual
To people who live in an alternate reality.

Like you, Nance.

How many times have you posted that garbage that Foreman only beat Frazier because he cheated?

I think you actually believe it; you daft old bugger!

:lol:

Attn Mods....

Please check to see if Loaded Gloves and Penal Colony Puke are from the same IP address.

Thank you.

Re: Cassius Clay, "I'm Fighting Uncle Tom Patterson'

Posted: 09 Oct 2013, 21:20
by Giancarlo
yancey wrote:
Giancarlo wrote:
yancey wrote:"Il Duce, What you write is factual
To people who live in an alternate reality.

Like you, Nance.

How many times have you posted that garbage that Foreman only beat Frazier because he cheated?

I think you actually believe it; you daft old bugger!

:lol:

Attn Mods....

Please check to see if Loaded Gloves and Penal Colony Puke are from the same IP address.

Thank you.

Hey Nance, I don't believe that you and the Duchess and angry old beaujerk are just one nutter with three accounts.

I subscribe to the theory that you are three nutters who the internet has allowed to meet up in cyber space to spout nonsense.

It must be fantastic for lonely old shut-ins like you three to 'communicate' with like-minded individuals. Very therapeutic I would think.

Keep taking the pills.

:TU:

Jesus Bless.

:lol:

Re: Cassius Clay, "I'm Fighting Uncle Tom Patterson'

Posted: 09 Oct 2013, 21:27
by ThatOne
There is an undue amount of acrimony in this thread.

Re: Cassius Clay, "I'm Fighting Uncle Tom Patterson'

Posted: 09 Oct 2013, 21:45
by Giancarlo
ThatOne wrote:There is an undue amount of acrimony in this thread.
Have you seen an Il Duce one that doesn't end up that way?

Re: Cassius Clay, "I'm Fighting Uncle Tom Patterson'

Posted: 09 Oct 2013, 21:48
by ThatOne
Giancarlo wrote:
ThatOne wrote:There is an undue amount of acrimony in this thread.
Have you seen an Il Duce one that doesn't end up that way?
Reminds me of the granner but Duce seems to have a sense of humor.

Re: Cassius Clay, "I'm Fighting Uncle Tom Patterson'

Posted: 09 Oct 2013, 21:50
by ThatOne
I’ve been thinking a lot lately about Joe Frazier as the first anniversary of his death (November 7, 2011) approaches.

I met Joe at the Sahara Hotel in Las Vegas on December 1, 1988. I’d just signed a contract to become Muhammad Ali’s official biographer. Two days of taping were underway for a documentary entitled Champions Forever that featured Ali, Frazier, George Foreman, Ken Norton, and Larry Holmes. I was there to conduct interviews for my book.

On the first morning, I sat at length with Foreman; the pre-lean-mean-grilling-machine model. George was twenty months into a comeback that was widely regarded as a joke. Six more years would pass before he knocked out Michael Moorer to regain the heavyweight throne.

“There was a time in my life when I was sort of unfriendly,” George told me. “Zaire was part of that period. I was going to knock Ali’s block off, and the thought of doing it didn’t bother me at all. After the fight, for a while I was bitter. I had all sorts of excuses. The ring ropes were loose. The referee counted too fast. The cut hurt my training. I was drugged. I should have just said the best man won, but I’d never lost before so I didn’t know how to lose. I fought that fight over in my head a thousand times. Then, finally, I realized I’d lost to a great champion; probably the greatest of all time. Now I’m just proud to be part of the Ali legend. If people mention my name with his from time to time, that’s enough for me. That, and I hope Muhammad likes me, because I like him. I like him a lot.”


Then I moved on to Ken Norton, who shared a poignant memory.

“When it counted most,” Norton reminisced, “Ali was there for me. In 1986, I was in a bad car accident. I was unconscious for I don’t know how long. My right side was paralyzed; my skull was fractured; I had a broken leg, a broken jaw. The doctors said I might never walk again. For a while, they thought I might not ever even be able to talk. I don’t remember much about my first few months in the hospital. But one thing I do remember is, after I was hurt, Ali was one of the first people to visit me. At that point, I wasn’t sure whether I wanted to live or die. That’s how bad I was hurt. Like I said, there’s a lot I don’t remember. But I remember looking up, and there was this crazy man standing by my bed. It was Ali, and he was doing magic tricks for me. He made a handkerchief disappear; he levitated. I said to myself, if he does one more awful trick, I’m gonna get well just so I can kill him. But Ali was there, and his being there helped me. So I don’t want to be remembered as the man who broke Muhammad Ali’s jaw. I just want to be remembered as a man who fought three close competitive fights with Ali and became his friend when the fighting was over.”

Larry Holmes held out for cash, so our conversation was short: “I’m proud I learned my craft from Ali,” Larry said. “I’m prouder of sparring with him when he was young than I am of beating him when he was old.”

End of conversation.

That left Joe.

Frazier wouldn’t talk with me because I was “Ali’s man.” But at an evening party after the second day of taping, Joe approached me. He’d been drinking. And the vile spewed out:

“I hated Ali. God might not like me talking that way, but it’s in my heart. First two fights, he tried to make me a white man. Then he tried to make me a person. How would you like it if your kids came home from school crying because everyone was calling their daddy a gorilla? God made us all the way we are. He made us the way we talk and look. And the way I feel, I’d like to fight Ali-Clay-whatever-his-name-is again tomorrow. Twenty years, I’ve been fighting Ali, and I still want to take him apart piece by piece and send him back to Jesus.”

Joe saw that I was writing down every word. This was a message he wanted the world to hear.

“I didn’t ask no favors of him, and he didn’t ask none of me. He shook me in Manila; he won. But I sent him home worse than he came. Look at him now. He’s damaged goods. I know it; you know it. Everyone knows it; they just don’t want to say. He was always making fun of me. I’m the dummy; I’m the one getting hit in the head. Tell me now; him or me, which one talks worse now? He can’t talk no more, and he still tries to make noise. He still wants you to think he’s the greatest, and he ain’t. I don’t care how the world looks at him. I see him different, and I know him better than anyone. Manila really don’t matter no more. He’s finished, and I’m still here.”

Twenty-one months later, when I finished writing Muhammad Ali: His Life and Times, I journeyed to Ali’s home in Berrian Springs, Michigan. Lonnie Ali (Muhammad’s wife), Howard Bingham (Ali’s longtime friend and personal photographer), and I spent a week reading every word of the manuscript aloud. By agreement, there would be no censorship. Our purpose in reading was to ensure the factually accuracy of the book.

In due course, Lonnie read Frazier’s quote aloud.

There was a silent moment.

"Did you hear that, Muhammad?" Lonnie asked.

Ali nodded.

"How do you feel, knowing that hundreds of thousands of people will read that?”

"It's what he said," Muhammad answered.

Ali’s thoughts ended that chapter of the book.

“I’m sorry Joe Frazier is mad at me. I’m sorry I hurt him. Joe Frazier is a good man. I couldn’t have done what I did without him, and he couldn’t have done what he did without me. And if God ever calls me to a holy war, I want Joe Frazier fighting beside me.”

On the final day of our reading, Muhammad, Lonnie, Howard, and I signed a pair of boxing gloves to commemorate the experience. I took one of the gloves home with me. Howard took the other.

The following spring, I was in Philadelphia for a black-tie gala celebrating the twentieth anniversary of the historic first fight between Ali and Frazier. This was Joe’s night. It was a fight he’d won. But his hatred for all things Ali was palpable.

Early in the evening, Howard suggested that I pose for a photo with Muhammad and Joe. I stood between them. Joe wrapped his arm around my waist in what I thought was a gesture of friendship. Then, just as Howard snapped the photo, Joe dug his fingers into the flesh beneath my ribs.

It hurt like hell.

I tried to pry his hand away.

You try prying Joe Frazier’s hand away.

When Joe was satisfied that he’d inflicted sufficient pain, he smirked at me and walked off.

Muhammad Ali: His Life and Times was published in June 1991. Joe decided that I’d treated him fairly. In the years that followed, when our paths crossed, he was warm and friendly. A ritual greeting evolved between us.

Joe would smile and say, “Hey! How’s my Jewish friend?”

I’d smile and say, “Hey! How’s my Baptist friend?”

Fast-forward to January 7, 2005. Joe was in my home. We were eating ice cream in the kitchen.

Three boxing gloves were hanging on the wall. The first two were worn by Billy Costello in his victorious championship fight against Saoul Mamby. That fight has special meaning to me. It’s the subject of the climactic chapter in The Black Lights, my first book about boxing.

The other glove bore the legend:

Muhammad Ali

Lonnie Ali

Howard L. Bingham

Thomas Hauser

9/10 - 9/17/90

Joe asked about the gloves. I explained their provenance. Then he said something that surprised me.

“Do you remember that time I gave you the claw?”

“I remember,” I said grimly.

“I’m sorry, man. I apologize.”

That was Joe Frazier. He remembered every hurt that anyone ever inflicted upon him. With regard to Ali, he carried those hurts like broken glass in his stomach for his entire life.

But Joe also remembered the hurts he’d inflicted on other people. And if he felt he’d done wrong, given time he would try to right the situation.

There’s now a fourth glove hanging on the wall of my kitchen. It bears the inscription:

Tom, to my man

Right on

Joe Frazier


http://www.thesweetscience.com/news/art ... azier.html

Re: Cassius Clay, "I'm Fighting Uncle Tom Patterson'

Posted: 09 Oct 2013, 22:01
by p4p1
inb4 making fun of Ali's condition was OK because he called Frazier a gorilla.

Re: Cassius Clay, "I'm Fighting Uncle Tom Patterson'

Posted: 09 Oct 2013, 22:06
by Giancarlo
Image

Re: Cassius Clay, "I'm Fighting Uncle Tom Patterson'

Posted: 09 Oct 2013, 22:08
by Giancarlo
Image

Re: Cassius Clay, "I'm Fighting Uncle Tom Patterson'

Posted: 09 Oct 2013, 22:09
by Giancarlo
Image

Re: Cassius Clay, "I'm Fighting Uncle Tom Patterson'

Posted: 09 Oct 2013, 22:13
by ThatOne
p4p1 wrote:inb4 making fun of Ali's condition was OK because he called Frazier a gorilla.

That's not really why I posted that. I thought his relationship with Tom Hauser was interesting.

___________________________

One of the joys in covering a big fight is that I never know what “extras” fight night will bring. On October 18, 2008, I was in the press room at Boardwark Hall in Atlantic City readying for Kelly Pavlik vs. Bernard Hopkins when Joe Frazier came in.

There was a time when Frazier regarded me as an adversary. I was Muhammad Ali’s biographer and thus “Ali’s man.” But in recent years, Joe and I have developed a friendship of our own.

Joe and I sat at a table in the press room and talked for an hour. “How the heavyweights got the way they are now, I couldn’t tell you,” he lamented. “But it’s sad. There’s one world. How can there be four heavyweight champions of the world? When I fought, people wouldn’t put up with two heavyweight champions. There was me and Jimmy Ellis; so we fought and there was one. Then Ali came back and we fought and there was one. Boxing is the best sport in the world and they messed it up.”

Joe talked fondly of George Foreman. “Big George beat up on me two times,” he said. “Someday, I’m gonna walk over to him, kiss him on the cheek, slip to the side, and hit him with the hook . . . Not really,” he added. “George is a good man. He came from a place that’s just as hard as the place I came from. And he could fight.”

Then Joe uttered a thought that isn’t often heard from him. “Muhammad could fight too.”

I thought back to Hugh McIlvanney’s words: "Mentioning nobility in connection with boxing is chancy, but exposure to men like Joe Frazier encourages such boldness."

Now Joe was rooted in the past. “That night at Madison Square Garden,” he reminisced. “Fifteenth round when I put Ali down. A fight like that. I stood where no one else ever stood.”

The conversation sequed to Joe’s childhood. “I grew up fast,” he recalled. “I became a man early, so there wasn’t much time for games. But I played a little baseball around the time I was twelve, thirteen years old. My position was catcher. I was always afraid the ball would tip off the bat, come up fast, and hit me in the face. I liked the hitting part of the game more.”

And we talked about the music we’d listened to when we were young. Elvis Presley, Little Richard, the Motown revolution.

“Don’t forget Fats Domino,” Joe offered. And he began to sing.

“I found my thrill . . . on Blueberry Hill . . .”

I joined in.

“On Blueberry Hill . . . when I found you . . .”

Neither of us knew all the words. But we muddled through the wind in the willow, love’s sweet melody, and all of those vows we made that were never to be.

In everyone’s life, there are moments that have no meaning to the world at large but are special to the person who experienced them. I’ll always smile when I think back on sitting with Joe Frazier and singing Blueberry Hill.


http://www.thesweetscience.com/news/art ... auser.html

Re: Cassius Clay, "I'm Fighting Uncle Tom Patterson'

Posted: 09 Oct 2013, 22:13
by Giancarlo
Image

In defence eh?

Re: Cassius Clay, "I'm Fighting Uncle Tom Patterson'

Posted: 09 Oct 2013, 22:14
by ThatOne
Giancarlo wrote:Image
What is the provenance of that photo?

Re: Cassius Clay, "I'm Fighting Uncle Tom Patterson'

Posted: 09 Oct 2013, 22:19
by Giancarlo
ThatOne wrote:
Giancarlo wrote:Image
What is the provenance of that photo?
I think it might be photo-shopped because there doesn't seem to be the dislike and acrimony that the duchess uses to justify her existence.

They seem like a couple of guys who are comfortable with each other's foibles.

Who'd have thought it?