Prime Muhammad Ali vs. a prime Larry Holmes?

[Kalan]

... [Ali] wasn't behind on the cards [to Liston] either as I recall... Now just stop being a big dummy head

The POINT is...Ali wasn't beating an old man who had the use of only one arm and was forced to quit because of his injury.. It doesn't show me he's a great boxer.. Now I assume the second part of your comment was self criticism that you fail to listen to ... because you never stop being a dummy.

[Kalan]

Holmes was a great heavyweight, sadly he was caught in the era after Ali so he was never really going to get out of that shadow, much like Joe Frazier when he won the world title after Ali was forced into retirement due to refusing military service, So he never got the same sort of respect due to the world heavyweight champion

If Frazier came up when George Foreman was champion he'd have never been heard from... And if Ali could defend left hooks well... and was a stronger puncher and infighter.. Frazier never would have made the splash that he did.. Ali didn't have to reject the draft.. He could have accepted military service and Conscientious Objector status.. Ali actually told friends he didn't want to be in the military because taking showers with a bunch of strangers, sleeping together in barracks, crapping together, and eating Army food in mess halls are things he was never going to be willing to do..

But what Ali did worked out well for him.. I was in the US Marines before the war and became a Conscientious Objector... I hated the Viet Nam War and hated President Johnson. I hated Congress for allowing us to go to war so foolishly and with no purpose.. Ali was a tremendous hero of ours in the anti-war movement.. Ali had more status for that than anything he ever did in the ring.. That's how he truly became popular and great.. Right wing die hards never relented. It was American right or wrong for them -- and I started to understand Nazi Germany and the Civil War.. You surrender yourself to a cult, a religion, a state, an ideology, or a faction and common sense no longer speaks to you.. You're ready to die for a cause you don't understand.

Holmes got a slow start -- a rather late start in Boxing.. He was lucky that Ali went broke and was finally forced to fight him.. Gerry Cooney came along and produced the biggest Boxing event up to that day and time.. Cooney became an emotional wreck with all the attention and he destroyed himself, and that's another story.. Cooney was one of many 80's Heavyweights who fell into cocaine addiction and many other problems.. But Holmes could have beaten anybody Ali fought and beaten them easier.. He was a better boxer and defender with more skills - and that's the bottom line.

[Nile4000]

That's a really good question. Prime Ali Vs Prime Holmes. Would be very interesting to see a simulated boxing match like that.

Ali advantages -
*Better (potentially faster) footwork
*Better tactician both in the ring and out of it
*Amazing ability to manipulate his opponents into making mistakes or making their strengths work against them
*better out-boxing and counter punching ability

Holmes advantages -
*physically stronger
*Better experienced with different styles and opposition (including Ali as a former sparring partner)
*Potentially better conditioned due to the advances in sport science by the time he was in his prime.
*Great amateur experience and additional sparring experience before making the change to the pro ranks

What would happen -
*Ali controlling the pace and looking to trade in short bursts to wear down Holmes or counter punch and do damage over the full fight and outwork his opponent in order to win rounds convincingly.
*Holmes achieving a knockdown in the later rounds of the fight and doing noticeable damage to Ali in the early stages but slowly beginning to tire over the 12 round distance.

Who would win -
*Ali - unanimous decision

Why -

Holmes was a great heavyweight, sadly he was caught in the era after Ali so he was never really going to get out of that shadow, much like Joe Frazier when he won the world title after Ali was forced into retirement due to refusing military service, So he never got the same sort of respect due to the world heavyweight champion.
Holmes fought great boxers: Ali albeit well past his prime, Spinks, Marvis Frazier who unfortunately never succeeded in transferring his amateur boxing ability into the Professional sport, Witherspoon in his early days, Ken Norton that proves he could handle more experienced world level boxers even trading with People like Tyson at his most aggressive while Holmes was on the decline and later on lasting the full 12 round distance against Evander Holyfield later into his career. so he could easily go a full 12 round with Ali if both were in their prime.

Ali on the other hand had a way of transcending the sport outside of the ring, much like Floyd Mayweather does, he pull's people into the fight and weather they love him or hated him, he fed on that and it made him better, the mental fortitude at his prime must have made him, in his own mind at least, unbeatable, literally 'the greatest', And that alone can be a deciding factor in a fight.
Comparing opposition, fighting a Olympic gold medallist like Frazier proves he can handle a high level amateur boxer who made the successful transition to the pro ranks. Fighting Foreman when he was past his prime proves his physical toughness and ability to weather a powerful fighter and use better tactics over a dangerous fight. Then you have the natural arrogance of Ali at his prime, his fight against Ernie Terrell, proves he could beat someone on the world level, not just badly but breaking them mentally because he could over a full fight and embarrass them just to prove his superiority.

Don't know about Holmes having the edge in amateur experience. He only had like 22 fights.

[HomicideHenry]

I see both Holmes and Holyfield beating Ali... But other Heavyweights I see beating Ali were: Jack Johnson... Jack Dempsey... Gene Tunney... Joe Louis... Tim Witherspoon... Michael Spinks... Mike Tyson... Ike Ibeabuchi... Lennox Lewis... Vitali Klitschko... Wladimir Klitschko... David Haye... Deontay Wilder... Alexander Povetkin... Luis Ortiz... and Anthony Joshua.

Guys Ali beats include: John L Sullivan, Jim Corbett, Bob Fitzsimmons, Jim Jeffries, Marvin Hart, Tommy Burns, Jess Willard, Max Schmeling, Jack Sharkey, Primo Carnera, Max Baer, Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles, Rocky Marciano, Floyd Patterson, Ingemar Johannson, Sonny Liston, Jimmy Ellis, Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Greg Page, Pinklon Thomas, Trevor Berbick, Mike Weaver, James Smith, Michael Dokes, Gerrie Coetzee, John Tate, Tony Tubbs and many many more... Ali was a fair boxer and basically any champ who couldn't box well wouldn't survive against him

Whatever credibility you thought you had is officially blown, lmao. I don't like Ali but there's no way those dudes in bold beat Ali.

[BoxBuzz]

... [Ali] wasn't behind on the cards [to Liston] either as I recall... Now just stop being a big dummy head

The POINT is...Ali wasn't beating an old man who had the use of only one arm and was forced to quit because of his injury.. It doesn't show me he's a great boxer.. Now I assume the second part of your comment was self criticism that you fail to listen to ... because you never stop being a dummy.

One of the very best ever examples of your sheer blind odd goofiness. You are agreeing with me, that you were being deceptive in your verbage....AND you point to Liston's POSSIBLE injury going in....and have ABSOLUTELY NO COMMENT on the OBVIOUS issue of Clay being able to manage the big guy....even with liniment in his eye. Liniment that was used with intent to help defeat a guy Sonny's corner figured out was inevitably going to whip Sonny's ass.

I just don't get you. I don't believe you are a troll....and sometimes you are pretty well informed.....but you nearly always operate like you brain is made of swiss cheese.

You are without a doubt, BoxRec's CHEESE CHAMP.

Now... I don't mean this unkindly.....but I do mean it sincerely.

[Kalan]

[You have] ABSOLUTELY NO COMMENT on the OBVIOUS issue of Clay being able to manage the big guy....even with liniment in his eye. Liniment that was used with intent to help defeat a guy Sonny's corner figured out was inevitably going to whip Sonny's ass.

BuzzBox the only thing you can do is fling insults and lie... Look at the scorecards because you're in need of a brain transplant..

Ali was NOT handling Liston.. The fight was even.. With Liston being badly injured Ali should have outboxed him 10 ways to Sunday.. Liston was never charged with having liniment on his gloves. He was never charged with ANY illegal actions in the fight. As usual you're making the "liniment" argument out of thin air... No Boxing Commission ever brought Liston up on that so it's a myth..

Angelo Dundee might have accidentally put a caustic of some kind into Ali's eyes.. I've seen this happen. A trainer has a Vaseline preparation made up to apply to cuts and it contains caustic coagulants or other caustics. He has another jar of regular Vaseline that he applies to his boxer’s face after every round.. It’s happened where a trainer accidentally applies the wrong stuff to his boxer’s face and he gets it in his eyes.. We don’t know what happened, but that’s more likely than Liston cheating.

You have no idea -- so you're talking out your ass as usual with no evidence... Liston suffered a freak injury and that is not uncommon in Boxing. Plus, Ali was taller and almost as big as Liston, so “big” was not an issue with Liston-Ali like it was with Liston-Patterson and Ali-Patterson.

[northern]

Don't know about Holmes having the edge in amateur experience. He only had like 22 fights.

But as an amateur about to / considering the professional side and holding his own in sparring against people like Ali, Shavers, Frazier, Young. That's a lot of experience to take with you before you step into a pro ring.

[northern]

If Frazier came up when George Foreman was champion he'd have never been heard from... And if Ali could defend left hooks well... and was a stronger puncher and infighter.. Frazier never would have made the splash that he did.. Ali didn't have to reject the draft.. He could have accepted military service and Conscientious Objector status.. Ali actually told friends he didn't want to be in the military because taking showers with a bunch of strangers, sleeping together in barracks, crapping together, and eating Army food in mess halls are things he was never going to be willing to do..

But what Ali did worked out well for him.. I was in the US Marines before the war and became a Conscientious Objector... I hated the Viet Nam War and hated President Johnson. I hated Congress for allowing us to go to war so foolishly and with no purpose.. Ali was a tremendous hero of ours in the anti-war movement.. Ali had more status for that than anything he ever did in the ring.. That's how he truly became popular and great.. Right wing die hards never relented. It was American right or wrong for them -- and I started to understand Nazi Germany and the Civil War.. You surrender yourself to a cult, a religion, a state, an ideology, or a faction and common sense no longer speaks to you.. You're ready to die for a cause you don't understand.

Holmes got a slow start -- a rather late start in Boxing.. He was lucky that Ali went broke and was finally forced to fight him.. Gerry Cooney came along and produced the biggest Boxing event up to that day and time.. Cooney became an emotional wreck with all the attention and he destroyed himself, and that's another story.. Cooney was one of many 80's Heavyweights who fell into cocaine addiction and many other problems.. But Holmes could have beaten anybody Ali fought and beaten them easier.. He was a better boxer and defender with more skills - and that's the bottom line.

I gave my opinion between Ali vs Holmes, based on the experience of both through their careers. Ali was forced to step down as a champion due to what happened and yes I agree with you that it did help him create that legacy well beyond boxing as a man ready to stand up for his ideals.
Also agree with you in that Holmes got a very late start to his career, but he is still one of the best of his era of heavyweight boxing, at his prime and between the generations of Ali and the emergence of the generation including people like Tyson and Holyfield he was arguably at the very top.

I'm glad we have one thing in common since we've both served in the military but to say in any sense you started to understand Nazi Germany and the civil war in a boxing discussion. That is taking this debate too far. Stick to the boxing.

The debate is, who would win between a prime Ali vs a prime Holmes. Just give your opinion and answer and Stick to the discussion and try not to take these general opinion debates to heart.

[Kalan]

Muhammad Ali at his best would make Holmes look like a gormless noob. No matter what the judges said, he lost to Norton. Holmes' greatest weapon wasn't his jab it was his thumb. He won most of his fights by using his thumb-in-the-eye tactic. Blind the guy then overwhelm him. Holmes fought a string of talentless journeymen before being forced to go the distance in a close fight with Trevor Berbick. Losing to Michael Spinks not once but twice sums up the big stiff's career.

Calling an ATG Heavyweight who went 48-0 including winning 21 straight Heavyweight Championship fights a BIG STIFF?????? ... That's the least astute and most biased thing I've ever read in my life... Holmes beat Norton by a much greater margin then the judges scored it.

Holmes couldn't even spar or throw punches for the last couple weeks of training camp because he suffered a torn left biceps.. Doctors who were treating Larry recommended that he postpone the fight, but Holmes had been waiting for a title shot for many years.. He felt he could beat Norton with one good arm.. Due to the 2 weeks of rest and continuing treatment of his arm, Holmes' left biceps held up for about 4 rounds -- all of which Holmes won very easily with his ATGreatest left jab and footwork.. With the biceps starting to unravel in the 5th Holmes couldn't retract it well. He had to resort to brawling to beat Norton.

Instead of boxing, Holmes stood in and traded punches with Norton, especially in the 15th round... What would have been a boring and one-sided fight following the pattern of the first 4 rounds, became an exciting fight because of the torn biceps... Holmes showed he could fight Norton's fight and still out-score him by many punches.. Norton hurt Ali...shattered Ali's jaw in fact...and beat Ali up... Those were not things he could do to Holmes.

A prime Larry Holmes probably had the greatest jab in Heavyweight History due to his height, weight, and reach advantages over Gene Tunney.. Even Norton out-jabbed Ali.. and of course Jimmy Young out-jabbed Ali also.. Ali was given many a gift decision by the judges.

Whatever time frame Holmes fought Ali it was a hopeless mismatch in favor of Holmes. That's why Ali chose to fight 197-pound tyro, Leon Spinks, who was 6-0-1, instead of Holmes, who was the best Heavyweight in the world at that time.. When Spinks was stripped of the Heavyweight Title and Holmes won it by beating Norton??? ... Ali continued to pretend Holmes didn't exist.. He fought Spinks again and retired..

Ali never gave a thought to fighting Holmes until he was desperate for money -- and of course had no title to risk.

[DrDuke]

Holmes would have won any Ali. Larry was an advanced version of Ali. Well, an overall advanced version. Holmes had a better jab and could brawl, if it was necessary. Ali had an advantage of more subtle movement a probably a better creativity, what could give him chances for victory and his moments, but still Holmes would have been too much for Ali. Larry would have outjabbed him and ruined all his game. Ali could survive to the final bell unlike in their actual meeting, when he was past prime, but he wouldn't be able to pull out a victory most likely. Holmes by confident UD.

[BoxBuzz]

Sometimes it's about creativity.....and in this case it's the best creative artist vs the best technician. Holmes should probably win, but I don't think he would.

Few folks here seem to credit ingenuity in possible matchups. Foreman and Holmes were very smart fighters. Ali was smarter. And Holmes would be a more difficult opponent for Ali. In their mutual primes....Holmes was not all that much better than Ali......and Ali, like Monzon, had a way to figure it all out, and come up with something. Larry's left was not going to be as effective as Joe's against Ali.....and Holmes was not as aggressive. And though Holmes Jab was superior, it was not as fast.....so that's a shoot out that Larry wins....but not by a wide margin.

Where I see the biggest difference is Ali's ability to avoid Larry's right hand, and Ali's ability to get his in more often.

I can see the betting going about 50/50 and so it's not an opportunity to make money, but I truly think Ali finds a way. By getting Holmes off of his rhythm.

[DrDuke]

Sometimes it's about creativity.....and in this case it's the best creative artist vs the best technician. Holmes should probably win, but I don't think he would.

Few folks here seem to credit ingenuity in possible matchups. Foreman and Holmes were very smart fighters. Ali was smarter. And Holmes would be a more difficult opponent for Ali. In their mutual primes....Holmes was not all that much better than Ali......and Ali, like Monzon, had a way to figure it all out, and come up with something. Larry's left was not going to be as effective as Joe's against Ali.....and Holmes was not as aggressive. And though Holmes Jab was superior, it was not as fast.....so that's a shoot out that Larry wins....but not by a wide margin.

Where I see the biggest difference is Ali's ability to avoid Larry's right hand, and Ali's ability to get his in more often.

I can see the betting going about 50/50 and so it's not an opportunity to make money, but I truly think Ali finds a way. By getting Holmes off of his rhythm.

Honestly, sometimes I am thinking this way. But in my mind Holmes wins this fight more often, than Ali.

Monzon comparison is not so appropriate, I'd say. Yeah, they both were very smart boxers, but the thing is, Monzon's smartness was always showing up in an ability to stick to the basics, to the text-book stuff, what enabled Monzon's opponents to succeed in their plans. If Ali tried to box with Holmes in a pure meaning if its definition, he would have been outboxed.

Here Ali needed another aspect of his smartness. His unorthodox creativity. Something like rope-a-dope in Foreman fight. But I'm not talking about rope-a-dope in Holmes fight, there it would have been useless. Ali needed to create some other way, I can't even imagine, what it could have been, I'm just taking Ali's ability to do something like that as a tool to victory. But still it's not the fact, that Ali would have come up with some arcane solution. So I favour Holmes.

[BoxBuzz]

Well knowing your particular strength is important...whether it's focusing like a laser on the fundamentals when needed, or finding a monkey wrench that sets your opponent off while finding rhythms that stifle your opponent.

And we are talking prime vs prime......and that may be hard to imagine since we've seen a genuine encounter...albeit spring/autumn style....., but I do think it favors the faster fighter both of hands and feet (and mind?) in this case.

Larry Holmes was all business, and very seldom could be taken off focus...so it would be a challenge. But getting under his skin wasn't impossible. And that was one of Ali's gifts. That would probably be a part of any solution for Ali. So if we go with the purely robot version.....Holmes would be favored. The humanity is the big loose cannon here, and in my opinion is where one might want to place there bets in this mythical encounter.


If it went 3 times....I'd favor Ali in the first encounter.....I would not bet on the follow ups.

[Ambling Alp II]

Ali was the better fighter; usually the better fighter wins.
Stylewise, Holmes is not going to handle Ali's speed. He would not be able to land very often. Ali's hand speed and accuracy would enable him to land often enough.

[DrDuke]

Ali was the better fighter; usually the better fighter wins.
Stylewise, Holmes is not going to handle Ali's speed. He would not be able to land very often. Ali's hand speed and accuracy would enable him to land often enough.

It's actually a big question mark, who was a better fighter. Some people talk about Ali, like he was invincible due to his speed. Yes, he was very special, but still he was taking some good punishment even in his prime years. And he had never faced someone of Holmes' caliber just because of there was nobody like that in those times.

[Ambling Alp II]

His prime was from 1964-1967. He took very little punishment during this time. He was clearly better than Holmes at this time. For whatever reasons, some people seem to overlook this time frame and focus on his fights in the 1970s.
Holmes vs the Ali of 1970-1975 would have been competitive, but Ali was not at his prime in those years.

[DrDuke]

His prime was from 1964-1967. He took very little punishment during this time. He was clearly better than Holmes at this time. For whatever reasons, some people seem to overlook this time frame and focus on his fights in the 1970s.
Holmes vs the Ali of 1970-1975 would have been competitive, but Ali was not at his prime in those years.

He had a couple of bouts from the list with his most controversial fights just before the period you mentioned.

[Ambling Alp II]

Yes, on his way up he two "controversial fights". The knockdown against Cooper and the Jones fight. If it was just about anyone else, there would be no controversy in either one.
He got up right away against Cooper and would have been fine if there was 2 minutes and 50 seconds left in the round. And it has been been shown that the time between rounds was not way over a minute anyway.

Some people like top complain about the Jones' decision, (which incidentally was in Jones' hometown.) They just can't find more than 4 rounds that you could possibly give Jones out of 10. Ali is being criticized for winning the Fight of the Year.

Nobody was as good as Ali from 1964- 1967, including Larry Holmes.

[DrDuke]

Yes, on his way up he two "controversial fights". The knockdown against Cooper and the Jones fight. If it was just about anyone else, there would be no controversy in either one.
He got up right away against Cooper and would have been fine if there was 2 minutes and 50 seconds left in the round. And it has been been shown that the time between rounds was not way over a minute anyway.

Some people like top complain about the Jones' decision, (which incidentally was in Jones' hometown.) They just can't find more than 4 rounds that you could possibly give Jones out of 10. Ali is being criticized for winning the Fight of the Year.

Nobody was as good as Ali from 1964- 1967, including Larry Holmes.

Talking about me, I'm not criticizing Ali, I'm just trying to tell, that he is to some extent overrated. His popularity and cultural impact on boxing created such a situation. Of course, he was extremely good boxer and he's very high in the all time rankings, but he wasn't flawless.

Nobody was as good as him from 1964-1967, but also in 1964-1967. We can't say for sure about other era's boxers. And Larry has his arguments to win this hypothitical matchup.

[BoxBuzz]

"Good" is an interesting word.....and in this case I agree with Alp.

No one was as "Good" as Ali in his prime. But Holmes was fundamentally superior. I.M.H.O.

And the reason Ali was higher on the "good" scale, is because he was smarter, and spectacularly creative.


Ali was talented, beyond measure.....and unpredictable. Holmes was disciplined beyond measure, and absolutely predictable.


And that's why I would not bet on Larry in this matchup.

[Cojimar 1946]

His competition in the 60s wasn't especially impressive I don't think one can be sure he will enjoy the same level of success against better opponents

[Ambling Alp II]

Yes we can be sure he would have been just as successful.
Have you actually watched his fights from the 1960s? Specifically his title fights?
btw - Holmes fought his share of stiffs.

[Cojimar 1946]

I think someone like Lennox Lewis would probably beat everyone Ali faced in the 60s and in a more brutal emphatic fashion.

[BoxBuzz]

I think someone like Lennox Lewis would probably beat everyone Ali faced in the 60s and in a more brutal emphatic fashion.

Liston would be a pretty interesting example to see if that would all pan out. As I recall a couple of big bangers managed to do pretty well against Lewis. McCall and Rahman come to mind.

[Cojimar 1946]

McCall and Rahman were both world class big men at 230+. I don't think the much smaller men ali was facing in the 60s would be as dangerous