The LIGHT HEAVYWEIGHT game: *CLOSED*

[APerno]

- Selecting a top 10 out of over 130 years of championship Queensbury gloved boxing a bit like selecting the top 10 science fiction novels. I'd choose the 1960 published Venus Plus X as the most applicable for this era of 20th century men waking up one morning in their 3rd millennium perfect cookie cutter world where overpopulation, endless war, biological destruction, and bigotry are all eliminated by technology and law. That would include elimination of biological gender, which makes Ol' Sturge prescient, so we could be sure boxing eliminated contact, weight and gender classes. All the punch monkeys, judges, and refs would have to study the new art of electronic scoring at distance where tiny he/she/it shoeshine flurries off breakballet dancing moves rule the day and any contact results in auto DQ.



Unlike some of the disreputable heavies chosen last go round, the lightheavies are a more honorable, more competitive lot, they having a claim to being the strongest division in history. I included their IBRO rankings as a point of comparison. Sturge was responsible for Sturgeon's Law in the day where 90% of science fiction is crud that became 90% of everything crud, but Sturge never saw a top 10 LH list.

1.Sammy Langford(#6 IBRO P4P/#3 LH)

2.Bobby Fitz(#10 IBRO P4P/#8 LH)

3.Ezzy Charles(#12 IBRO P4P/#2 LH)

4.Archie Moore(#17 IBRO P4P/#1 LH)

5. Harry Greb(#2 IBRO P4P/#13 LH)

The first five were not constrained to lightheavy limitations to transcend the division. Had the $ value been there, they could've remained there, but they went with bigger fights in bigger divisions whenever possible that enhance the potential of this division, not that I think any could beat the top behemoth heavies of today. I would rank Greb higher but for being such a smallish, light puncher primarily winning decisions at home.

6. Micheal Spinks(#7 IBRO LH)

7. Bob Foster(#5 IBRO LH)

8.Roy Jones Jr(#10 IBRO LH) + Jellyman Kellerman's #1 heavy and P4P all time for those who savor boxing's boundless supply of sublime comedy.

9.Gene Tunney(#20 IBRO P4P/#4 LH)

10. Sergey Krusher Kovalev in anticipation of his demolition of Andre "My Imelda Shoe Collection" (MISC) Ward. One shudders to consider Krusher in 6 OZ gloves of yesteryear.

*** Note my selections span 125 years of boxing from when Fitz makes his 1st splash before there was a LH division. I have no bias whatsoever other than I prefer sluggers though classic fighters who are superb boxers like Charles, Tunney, and Spinks easily make my list. Potentially prime to prime any of the lower 5 could beat the upper five, a very competitive division, but I favor Sam in any 3-5 fight series against the 9 as the last man standing. Sam and Sergey also represent true International fighters bookending the rest.

Ah! RJJ the eighth greatest LHW of all time; now I get it, now I get it. - I'll stop following you around now - Know if we are going to Middleweights?

[Crease]

Know if we are going to Middleweights?

Yeah, that thread will be started this very day. Once I finish up with the Light Heavyweights here and confirm the final count...

[Crease]

And so today is our deadline and our final table looks like this:

FINAL Scoreboard: (22 members have voted)

1st - 180 pts Archie Moore
2nd - 179 pts Ezzard Charles
3rd - 146 pts Gene Tunney
4th - 131 pts Michael Spinks
5th - 91 pts Sam Langford
6th - 86 pts Bob Foster
7th - 61 pts Harry Greb
8th - 57 pts Tommy Loughran
9th - 56 pts Bob Fitzsimmons
10th - 50 pts Billy Conn

11th - 43 pts Roy Jones Jr
12th - 30 pts Maxie Rosenbloom
13th - 28 pts Harold Johnson
14th - 21 pts Tommy Gibbons
Tied 15th - 10 pts Jimmy Bivins
Tied 15th - 10 pts Sergey Kovalev
16th - 09 pts John Henry Lewis
18th - 04 pts Mike Gibbons
Tied 19th - 03 pts Georges Carpentier
Tied 19th - 03 pts Matthew Saad Muhammad
Tied 19th - 03 pts Joey Maxim
Tied 19th - 03 pts Andre Ward

Tied 23rd - 02 pts Mike McTigue
Tied 23rd - 02 pts Floyd Patterson
Tied 25th - 01 pt Jack Delaney
Tied 25th - 01 pt George Gardiner
Tied 25th - 01 pt Dwight Muhammad Qawi

Couldn't have been any closer between Archie & Ezzard could it? Literally every point did matter in that race.

[Crease]

This game is now officially closed.

Our deadline has passed and all votes are in and accounted for... Thank you to everyone that has voted, every single vote matters on these threads.


If you want to resume playing and continue having your say, I cordially invite each of you to name your top 10 Middleweights on our new thread.

[Keko]

I was expecting Harold Johnson in a better place and it's a little surprise. Mostly interesting category, a lot of different opinions and lists.

[BoxBuzz]

For what it's worth, Those of us who did not include Tunney and Ezz as LHW's effected the vote in a way that denied them top rating.

Not good not bad, just is what it is.

Had we been picking from a list of prescribed names, that included them, I would acknowledge the likelihood that they would have led the division.

[davie]

For what it's worth, Those of us who did not include Tunney and Ezz as LHW's effected the vote in a way that denied them top rating.

Not good not bad, just is what it is.

Had we been picking from a list of prescribed names, that included them, I would acknowledge the likelihood that they would have led the division.

Shhhhhh

Archie won!
We were right!

[elmersalsa]

In a way, the voting for the great Archie Moore as the best light-heavyweight of all time is fine. It's a toss up for a lot of people between he and the Cincinnati Cobra

[Tomasino]

Another good thread Mr Crease

[Kalan]

I consider Mike Gibbons a better boxer than his brother Tommy, although he didn't fight that many Light Heavyweights now that I checked... He beat Chuck Wiggins and Jack Dillon, who both fought and beat a number of Heavyweights and Light Heavyweights... In his book "Arms for Living" Gene Tunney wrote that he modeled his fight with Jack Dempsey on Mike Gibbons' strategic win over Jack Dillon... He considered Dempsey a bigger version of Jack Dillon and thought Gibbons was brilliant.

But maybe Antonio Tarver would be a better selection than Mike Gibbons... or possibly Archie Moore, considering how small Gibbons was... Moore started as a Welterweight also ... and Billy Conn started pro as a Lightweight...

That reads very much like "I meant to write Tommy, but I am utterly unable to ever back down on this forum"

NO... I meant Mike Gibbons all along... because of what I heard about him and what Gene Tunney wrote about him... Tunney knocked out Tommy.

[Crease]

In a way, the voting for the great Archie Moore as the best light-heavyweight of all time is fine. It's a toss up for a lot of people between he and the Cincinnati Cobra

Indeed, the majority had them as the top two.
I will post up the final analysis of the Number 1 picks tomorrow.

[davie]

I consider Mike Gibbons a better boxer than his brother Tommy, although he didn't fight that many Light Heavyweights now that I checked... He beat Chuck Wiggins and Jack Dillon, who both fought and beat a number of Heavyweights and Light Heavyweights... In his book "Arms for Living" Gene Tunney wrote that he modeled his fight with Jack Dempsey on Mike Gibbons' strategic win over Jack Dillon... He considered Dempsey a bigger version of Jack Dillon and thought Gibbons was brilliant.

But maybe Antonio Tarver would be a better selection than Mike Gibbons... or possibly Archie Moore, considering how small Gibbons was... Moore started as a Welterweight also ... and Billy Conn started pro as a Lightweight...

That reads very much like "I meant to write Tommy, but I am utterly unable to ever back down on this forum"

NO... I meant Mike Gibbons all along... because of what I heard about him and what Gene Tunney wrote about him... Tunney knocked out Tommy.

OK, you keep telling yourself that.

[Crease]

Final piece of analysis:

From the 22 Number One picks, here's the break down of them:

Ezzard Charles was voted Number One 9 times.
Archie Moore was voted Number One 7 times.
Gene Tunney was voted Number One 3 times.
Sam Langford was voted Number One 2 times.
Michael Spinks was voted Number One 1 time.

[elmersalsa]

Final piece of analysis:

From the 22 Number One picks, here's the break down of them:

Ezzard Charles was voted Number One 9 times.
Archie Moore was voted Number One 7 times.
Gene Tunney was voted Number One 3 times.
Sam Langford was voted Number One 2 times.
Michael Spinks was voted Number One 1 time.

It was very close between The Ol' Mongoose and Cincinnati Cobra.

[davie]

It was very close between The Ol' Mongoose and Cincinnati Cobra.

As it should be.

I favour Moore but had it swung in Charles favour I wouldn't have complained, I fully understand people rationale for having him ahead

what I would have called foul about, would have been a wide margin of victory.

For me, these 2 men stand head and shoulder above in the LHW ranks and it's fitting that it was, as near as damn it, a dead heat.

[Tomasino]

It was very close between The Ol' Mongoose and Cincinnati Cobra.

As it should be.

I favour Moore but had it swung in Charles favour I wouldn't have complained, I fully understand people rationale for having him ahead

what I would have called foul about, would have been a wide margin of victory.

For me, these 2 men stand head and shoulder above in the LHW ranks and it's fitting that it was, as near as damn it, a dead heat.

It was only due to some people omitting Charles completely that he lost out.

[davie]

It was very close between The Ol' Mongoose and Cincinnati Cobra.

As it should be.

I favour Moore but had it swung in Charles favour I wouldn't have complained, I fully understand people rationale for having him ahead

what I would have called foul about, would have been a wide margin of victory.

For me, these 2 men stand head and shoulder above in the LHW ranks and it's fitting that it was, as near as damn it, a dead heat.

It was only due to some people omitting Charles completely that he lost out.

Moore was also ommited from at least one list that I actually commented on at the time

Think it was Kalans list

nuff said

[Ambling Alp II]

Final piece of analysis:

From the 22 Number One picks, here's the break down of them:

Ezzard Charles was voted Number One 9 times.
Archie Moore was voted Number One 7 times.
Gene Tunney was voted Number One 3 times.
Sam Langford was voted Number One 2 times.
Michael Spinks was voted Number One 1 time.

Several years ago I posted a list of the top light heavyweights. I think I went all the way to a Top 40. I had Spinks number 1. There were a lot of comments on the list. Not one person said that Spinks should not be number 1.

[Tomasino]

Final piece of analysis:

From the 22 Number One picks, here's the break down of them:

Ezzard Charles was voted Number One 9 times.
Archie Moore was voted Number One 7 times.
Gene Tunney was voted Number One 3 times.
Sam Langford was voted Number One 2 times.
Michael Spinks was voted Number One 1 time.

Several years ago I posted a list of the top light heavyweights. I think I went all the way to a Top 40. I had Spinks number 1. There were a lot of comments on the list. Not one person said that Spinks should not be number 1.

How different was your top 10 compared with the voted top 10?

[Crease]

It was only due to some people omitting Charles completely that he lost out.

Moore was also ommited from at least one list that I actually commented on at the time
Think it was Kalans list
nuff said

To be fair, Charles did not score any points in 2 of the lists (BoxBuzz & Give up).
Likewise, Moore did not score any points in Kalan's and only scroed 5 pts with Seamus.

I think everything evens itself out in the end. But it definitely depends on what way you choose to look at it.

[Crease]

Several years ago I posted a list of the top light heavyweights. I think I went all the way to a Top 40. I had Spinks number 1. There were a lot of comments on the list. Not one person said that Spinks should not be number 1.

How different was your top 10 compared with the voted top 10?

Here it is (from page 4):

1. Michael Spinks
2. Ezzard Charles
3. Archie Moore
4. Gene Tunney
5. Sam Langford
6. Bob Foster
7. Harold Johnson
8. Tommy Loughran
9. Harry Greb
10. Dwight Qawi

Mr Ambling Amp is as good as his word. Although it should be noted that he was the only guy to give Spinks the full 10 pts.

[Tomasino]

Several years ago I posted a list of the top light heavyweights. I think I went all the way to a Top 40. I had Spinks number 1. There were a lot of comments on the list. Not one person said that Spinks should not be number 1.

How different was your top 10 compared with the voted top 10?

Here it is (from page 4):

1. Michael Spinks
2. Ezzard Charles
3. Archie Moore
4. Gene Tunney
5. Sam Langford
6. Bob Foster
7. Harold Johnson
8. Tommy Loughran
9. Harry Greb
10. Dwight Qawi

Mr Ambling Amp is as good as his word. Although it should be noted that he was the only guy to give Spinks the full 10 pts.

It's a tough division for sure. All the guys in the top 10 are capable of beating the others imo. H2H I'd probs pick Langford.

[Cap]

I'd've picked Sam Langford No.1 because I don't believe Moore or Charles (who was better than Moore) would've lasted the distance against Langford in his prime.

'nuff said.

[Tomasino]

I'd've picked Sam Langford No.1 because I don't believe Moore or Charles (who was better than Moore) would've lasted the distance against Langford in his prime.

'nuff said.

You should have put your top ten up Cap...the middleweights thread could use your input too

[Keko]

I'd've picked Sam Langford No.1 because I don't believe Moore or Charles (who was better than Moore) would've lasted the distance against Langford in his prime.

'nuff said.

Write your top 10 , I'd love to see it