BoxRec

Rob3_142 wrote:
You're absolutely right, there is numerous criminal investigations currently ongoing in regards to the former IAAF president, and rightly so. But I have a lot more faith in the new IAAF president, Seb Coe, and we're seeing a lot of policy reforms, which hopefully should take the sport forward, with a great deal more integrity.

There is clearly a great deal of history between the US and Russia, but Russia are in most parts designers of their own downfall. I don't know anything about the US election and Russia's involvement, as neither do you, while Crimea is completely off topic. But really this political mess has nothing to do with what we're discussing, and that is Russia's attitude to drug use. At the end of the day, there is an international code of conduct which every person wanting to compete on an international playing field must adhere to. Any athletes (or nations) not wishing to adhere to these policies are not welcome to compete. This is why Russia have been omitted from recent IAAF international events. There is still a toxic culture in Russia towards drug use, and from what I can see, they're a long way from reform. It would not surprise me if Povetkin holds the exact same values.

You may well believe that the political unrest surrounding the West and Russia is serving to influence the treatment of Russian athletes, but that sounds more like sympathy than considering the facts which are being presented. I wish I knew everything that is going on, but so far the evidence on show is so far suggesting that Russia is incredibly far from innocence. In fact I'm absolutely shocked that there is so much support for Russia's recent activity, and it being merely painted as politically motivated.

Enlightened-One wrote:"Povetkin attorneys seek motion for new trial or judgment in its favor"

"The attorneys for World of Boxing and Povetkin claim that the jury verdict was not based on the evidence, the testimony of one of Wilder’s experts should not have been relied upon, the timing of the trial did not allow for all the questions to be answered and the purported misconduct of Wilder’s attorney."

The hearing is scheduled for April 21, 2017 before the trial court judge in New York.

tiny_acres wrote:
No way in hell is the verdict over turned.

x2x wrote:

tiny_acres wrote:
No way in hell is the verdict over turned.

No...not in a New York City courthouse. Wassamada couldn't they book one in Las Vegas?

tiny_acres wrote:

Enlightened-One wrote:"Povetkin attorneys seek motion for new trial or judgment in its favor"

"The attorneys for World of Boxing and Povetkin claim that the jury verdict was not based on the evidence, the testimony of one of Wilder’s experts should not have been relied upon, the timing of the trial did not allow for all the questions to be answered and the purported misconduct of Wilder’s attorney."

The hearing is scheduled for April 21, 2017 before the trial court judge in New York.

No way in hell is the verdict over turned.

Kalan wrote:

Rob3_142 wrote:And finally, the Marius Wach fight was in 2015. Meldonium was not banned in 2015. Your point of argument is redundant

I proves that AP was using Meldonium when it was legal. Therefore he might still have a trace amount in his system to account for the so-called "positive" sample that was WELL under the concentration (999 nanograms) that WADA set for passing the test.. He tested at 70 nanograms on the test VADA flagged.

x2x wrote:

Rob3_142 wrote:
You're absolutely right, there is numerous criminal investigations currently ongoing in regards to the former IAAF president, and rightly so. But I have a lot more faith in the new IAAF president, Seb Coe, and we're seeing a lot of policy reforms, which hopefully should take the sport forward, with a great deal more integrity.

There is clearly a great deal of history between the US and Russia, but Russia are in most parts designers of their own downfall. I don't know anything about the US election and Russia's involvement, as neither do you, while Crimea is completely off topic. But really this political mess has nothing to do with what we're discussing, and that is Russia's attitude to drug use. At the end of the day, there is an international code of conduct which every person wanting to compete on an international playing field must adhere to. Any athletes (or nations) not wishing to adhere to these policies are not welcome to compete. This is why Russia have been omitted from recent IAAF international events. There is still a toxic culture in Russia towards drug use, and from what I can see, they're a long way from reform. It would not surprise me if Povetkin holds the exact same values.

You may well believe that the political unrest surrounding the West and Russia is serving to influence the treatment of Russian athletes, but that sounds more like sympathy than considering the facts which are being presented. I wish I knew everything that is going on, but so far the evidence on show is so far suggesting that Russia is incredibly far from innocence. In fact I'm absolutely shocked that there is so much support for Russia's recent activity, and it being merely painted as politically motivated.

The US uses more drugs than the whole rest of the world combined, legal prescription drugs, opioids, everything, and if any place is filthy with drugs - and everything else - it is Las Vegas, Nevada. So why should a Russian, or other foreign, or even US athletes without the "connections", permit his livelihood to be placed in the hands of some sheister doctor from Las Vegas, and these crooked western alphabet things too?

Rob3_142 wrote:
Do you have stats to back that claim up?

In 2016, USADA conducted 12,755 tests with 71 athletes being suspended for failed drugs tests (including tests against Ostarine and Meldonium). How many tests did RusADA conduct on it's athletes? How many athletes did they independently suspend for failed tests? At the 2012 London Olympics, 12 Russian athletes were tested positive, of which included 2 gold medals. The USA only had 3 athletes caught during the same competition.

Throw into the mix the allegations of state sponsored doping and the exclusion of sports teams from international competition for non-compliance, you have a lot of guilty fingers pointed at Russia. And by the way, before you go blaming the US for all this, let's remind ourselves here that the allegations were first raised by an employee working for RusADA, and later brought to international attention by German broadcasters ARD.

But I guess that's all a conspiracy against Russia too...

Rob3_142 wrote:

asdfjkl wrote:So he bought a ticket for the same day? That's amazing? How did he do that? In Europe, something like that is usually impossible, especially if you fly to a different continent, on top of that, where are the tickets to Russia? Also out of Europe, so booked earlier? Could you show me about those days? I wished I took more care of it at the time. I might check it some time soon if I have the time.
It was easely seen in Povetkin his samples when he used Meldonium, and everything seemed completely natural and perfectly fitted the story of Povetkin. Also, straight away the reason why Wilder knew beforehand that the fight would never happen, since the tests around the Wach fight proved Povetkin used Meldonium when he was allowed to.

Just so you know, I could buy a flight for in 2 hours time from Manchester, UK to Birmingham, Alabama for £550. Now I'm only assuming, but that would not be much of a problem for someone like Deontay Wilder. Just saying.

I have no idea what it is you're getting at. You want me to indicate which flights, and present the tickets as proof, out to Russia from the UK? His team indicted that they had planned to fly out from the UK to Russia on the Sunday (6 days before the fight), and they received the letter from VADA on the Thursday. I have already explained this to you. Please read what I'm writing, save me from having to repeat it further.

Can you re-word the sentence in bold? I have no idea what you mean.

And finally, the Marius Wach fight was in 2015. Meldonium was not banned in 2015. Your point of argument is redundant.

I beg you, please just try do a little bit of research before you type anything further. You'd save yourself a lot of embarrassment. Also, just read what I have wrote, and address each thing you wish to dispute. Otherwise we just will end up going round in circles.

asdfjkl wrote:

Rob3_142 wrote:

asdfjkl wrote:So he bought a ticket for the same day? That's amazing? How did he do that? In Europe, something like that is usually impossible, especially if you fly to a different continent, on top of that, where are the tickets to Russia? Also out of Europe, so booked earlier? Could you show me about those days? I wished I took more care of it at the time. I might check it some time soon if I have the time.
It was easely seen in Povetkin his samples when he used Meldonium, and everything seemed completely natural and perfectly fitted the story of Povetkin. Also, straight away the reason why Wilder knew beforehand that the fight would never happen, since the tests around the Wach fight proved Povetkin used Meldonium when he was allowed to.

Just so you know, I could buy a flight for in 2 hours time from Manchester, UK to Birmingham, Alabama for £550. Now I'm only assuming, but that would not be much of a problem for someone like Deontay Wilder. Just saying.

I have no idea what it is you're getting at. You want me to indicate which flights, and present the tickets as proof, out to Russia from the UK? His team indicted that they had planned to fly out from the UK to Russia on the Sunday (6 days before the fight), and they received the letter from VADA on the Thursday. I have already explained this to you. Please read what I'm writing, save me from having to repeat it further.

Can you re-word the sentence in bold? I have no idea what you mean.

And finally, the Marius Wach fight was in 2015. Meldonium was not banned in 2015. Your point of argument is redundant.

I beg you, please just try do a little bit of research before you type anything further. You'd save yourself a lot of embarrassment. Also, just read what I have wrote, and address each thing you wish to dispute. Otherwise we just will end up going round in circles.

I know, but the substance was traced at that time, so it was logic that it was still in his blood in 2016, but they already knew that in 2015 and that's the reason why they knew the fight never needed to take place, and that's why Wilder changed from "Oh no, it's to cold in Moskow, I don't go to Russia" to "Yes, I'll fight him anywhere! No problem!", because he knew the fight would never happen.

Rob3_142 wrote:

asdfjkl wrote:

Rob3_142 wrote:
Just so you know, I could buy a flight for in 2 hours time from Manchester, UK to Birmingham, Alabama for £550. Now I'm only assuming, but that would not be much of a problem for someone like Deontay Wilder. Just saying.

I have no idea what it is you're getting at. You want me to indicate which flights, and present the tickets as proof, out to Russia from the UK? His team indicted that they had planned to fly out from the UK to Russia on the Sunday (6 days before the fight), and they received the letter from VADA on the Thursday. I have already explained this to you. Please read what I'm writing, save me from having to repeat it further.

Can you re-word the sentence in bold? I have no idea what you mean.

And finally, the Marius Wach fight was in 2015. Meldonium was not banned in 2015. Your point of argument is redundant.

I beg you, please just try do a little bit of research before you type anything further. You'd save yourself a lot of embarrassment. Also, just read what I have wrote, and address each thing you wish to dispute. Otherwise we just will end up going round in circles.

I know, but the substance was traced at that time, so it was logic that it was still in his blood in 2016, but they already knew that in 2015 and that's the reason why they knew the fight never needed to take place, and that's why Wilder changed from "Oh no, it's to cold in Moskow, I don't go to Russia" to "Yes, I'll fight him anywhere! No problem!", because he knew the fight would never happen.

Unless of course if he continued to take it after 1 January 2016.

x2x wrote:

Rob3_142 wrote:
Do you have stats to back that claim up?

In 2016, USADA conducted 12,755 tests with 71 athletes being suspended for failed drugs tests (including tests against Ostarine and Meldonium). How many tests did RusADA conduct on it's athletes? How many athletes did they independently suspend for failed tests? At the 2012 London Olympics, 12 Russian athletes were tested positive, of which included 2 gold medals. The USA only had 3 athletes caught during the same competition.

Throw into the mix the allegations of state sponsored doping and the exclusion of sports teams from international competition for non-compliance, you have a lot of guilty fingers pointed at Russia. And by the way, before you go blaming the US for all this, let's remind ourselves here that the allegations were first raised by an employee working for RusADA, and later brought to international attention by German broadcasters ARD.

But I guess that's all a conspiracy against Russia too...

Not hard to find info on US vs. the world drug use, and straight from the horse's mouth too. Just crank up the google machine. 2 quick samples:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-leads-th ... -drug-use/

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/04/27/american ... upply.html

Plenty of whistle blowers and news stories about drug use amongst US athletes too...but they're not getting tested by a drug testing outfit in Grozny are they? Why not? That would even up the score with Doctor Goodman.

asdfjkl wrote:

Rob3_142 wrote:

asdfjkl wrote: I know, but the substance was traced at that time, so it was logic that it was still in his blood in 2016, but they already knew that in 2015 and that's the reason why they knew the fight never needed to take place, and that's why Wilder changed from "Oh no, it's to cold in Moskow, I don't go to Russia" to "Yes, I'll fight him anywhere! No problem!", because he knew the fight would never happen.

Unless of course if he continued to take it after 1 January 2016.

That's right, and that's why he's currently, by distance, the most tested boxer in the entire world, all following tests prove he was honest from start of, there doesn't and ofcourse couldn't, exist any evidence that he used it after 1 januari 2016, despite he's the most tested boxer in the entire world in 2016.

Rob3_142 wrote:

asdfjkl wrote:

Rob3_142 wrote:
Unless of course if he continued to take it after 1 January 2016.

That's right, and that's why he's currently, by distance, the most tested boxer in the entire world, all following tests prove he was honest from start of, there doesn't and ofcourse couldn't, exist any evidence that he used it after 1 januari 2016, despite he's the most tested boxer in the entire world in 2016.

He's the most tested boxer currently because he signed up to a prescribed VADA CBP protocol, in order to maintain his WBC ranking, after the Meldonim positive. You have to also realise that testing positive for Meldonium, despite below the recommended threshold is still not as innocent as you're making out. If the excretion trials indicate that Meldonium will be flushed out of your body in 6 weeks, they will go back and ban Povetkin.

asdfjkl wrote:

Rob3_142 wrote:

asdfjkl wrote: That's right, and that's why he's currently, by distance, the most tested boxer in the entire world, all following tests prove he was honest from start of, there doesn't and ofcourse couldn't, exist any evidence that he used it after 1 januari 2016, despite he's the most tested boxer in the entire world in 2016.

He's the most tested boxer currently because he signed up to a prescribed VADA CBP protocol, in order to maintain his WBC ranking, after the Meldonim positive. You have to also realise that testing positive for Meldonium, despite below the recommended threshold is still not as innocent as you're making out. If the excretion trials indicate that Meldonium will be flushed out of your body in 6 weeks, they will go back and ban Povetkin.

But we all know that meldonium can't 100% sure be out of your body and never show up again, this is exactly what proves that Povetkin was right all the time.

Rob3_142 wrote:

asdfjkl wrote:

Rob3_142 wrote:
He's the most tested boxer currently because he signed up to a prescribed VADA CBP protocol, in order to maintain his WBC ranking, after the Meldonim positive. You have to also realise that testing positive for Meldonium, despite below the recommended threshold is still not as innocent as you're making out. If the excretion trials indicate that Meldonium will be flushed out of your body in 6 weeks, they will go back and ban Povetkin.

But we all know that meldonium can't 100% sure be out of your body and never show up again, this is exactly what proves that Povetkin was right all the time.

It can be metabolised to a level which is non-detectable in urine samples. This is exactly what they're trying to find out.

asdfjkl wrote:

Rob3_142 wrote:

asdfjkl wrote: But we all know that meldonium can't 100% sure be out of your body and never show up again, this is exactly what proves that Povetkin was right all the time.

It can be metabolised to a level which is non-detectable in urine samples. This is exactly what they're trying to find out.

And exactly that proves that Povetkin hasn't taken anything after 1 januari 2016, as he said from start of.

Rob3_142 wrote:

x2x wrote:

Rob3_142 wrote:
Do you have stats to back that claim up?

In 2016, USADA conducted 12,755 tests with 71 athletes being suspended for failed drugs tests (including tests against Ostarine and Meldonium). How many tests did RusADA conduct on it's athletes? How many athletes did they independently suspend for failed tests? At the 2012 London Olympics, 12 Russian athletes were tested positive, of which included 2 gold medals. The USA only had 3 athletes caught during the same competition.

Throw into the mix the allegations of state sponsored doping and the exclusion of sports teams from international competition for non-compliance, you have a lot of guilty fingers pointed at Russia. And by the way, before you go blaming the US for all this, let's remind ourselves here that the allegations were first raised by an employee working for RusADA, and later brought to international attention by German broadcasters ARD.

But I guess that's all a conspiracy against Russia too...

Not hard to find info on US vs. the world drug use, and straight from the horse's mouth too. Just crank up the google machine. 2 quick samples:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-leads-th ... -drug-use/

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/04/27/american ... upply.html

Plenty of whistle blowers and news stories about drug use amongst US athletes too...but they're not getting tested by a drug testing outfit in Grozny are they? Why not? That would even up the score with Doctor Goodman.

There's absolutely no doubt that the US consumes the most drugs in the world, but you're talking about recreational drugs, and I'm talking about performance enhancing drugs in sport. Although the use of recreational drugs in the US is, in my opinion, a major concern, it's not really relevant to our current discussion.

There's whistle blowers everywhere, which is a good thing, and as long as it ships athletes that are cheating I'm happy. However the US does catch a lot of athletes doping out of competition internally, whereas the numbers coming out of RusADA are a little vague and misleading. Some drug testers and WADA officials are not allowed to enter some 'closed cities' or some military facilities where some athletes train. This is the problem I'm talking about.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

tiny_acres wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote: This is the most pathetic ongoing idiocy I've ever seen on the board.boxing novelist is a breath of fresh air compared to these buffoons.

I have to agree with you. I've been on this site under one name or another since 2004. And I've never seen anything as pathetic as the apologists of Povetkin's.

He was caught. He was found guilty. Let him serve his suspension pay his fines and go on.

Developing power this late in his career was suspicious, toss two failed tests on top of that and you have to consider it an air tight case.

Kalan wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

tiny_acres wrote:
I have to agree with you. I've been on this site under one name or another since 2004. And I've never seen anything as pathetic as the apologists of Povetkin's.

He was caught. He was found guilty. Let him serve his suspension pay his fines and go on.

Developing power this late in his career was suspicious, toss two failed tests on top of that and you have to consider it an air tight case.

It's ignorant to say he failed 2 tests because he PASSED all the Wilder tests as admitted by WADA, VADA, and the WBC after months of "investigation." Then VADA claimed Povetkin had a 10th of a nanogram of Ostarine in ONE (1) of scores of tests Povetkin has taken in the 8 or 9 years since Ostarine has been on the banned list... That test cannot be duplicated by any other testing agency and it's impossible for VADA to back their finding with any other data... And again they brought this data forward on the day of the fight to destroy the Russian promotion of Povetkin-Stiverne.

Rob3_142 wrote:

asdfjkl wrote:

Rob3_142 wrote:
It can be metabolised to a level which is non-detectable in urine samples. This is exactly what they're trying to find out.

And exactly that proves that Povetkin hasn't taken anything after 1 januari 2016, as he said from start of.

But they did detect the substance in his urine, the excretion trials have not been concluded yet, so the amount they measured doesn't mean much yet.

x2x wrote:

Rob3_142 wrote:

x2x wrote:
Not hard to find info on US vs. the world drug use, and straight from the horse's mouth too. Just crank up the google machine. 2 quick samples:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-leads-th ... -drug-use/

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/04/27/american ... upply.html

Plenty of whistle blowers and news stories about drug use amongst US athletes too...but they're not getting tested by a drug testing outfit in Grozny are they? Why not? That would even up the score with Doctor Goodman.

There's absolutely no doubt that the US consumes the most drugs in the world, but you're talking about recreational drugs, and I'm talking about performance enhancing drugs in sport. Although the use of recreational drugs in the US is, in my opinion, a major concern, it's not really relevant to our current discussion.

There's whistle blowers everywhere, which is a good thing, and as long as it ships athletes that are cheating I'm happy. However the US does catch a lot of athletes doping out of competition internally, whereas the numbers coming out of RusADA are a little vague and misleading. Some drug testers and WADA officials are not allowed to enter some 'closed cities' or some military facilities where some athletes train. This is the problem I'm talking about.

Legal prescription drugs are at least as deadly a problem as recreational drugs in the USA. Look up numbers of people that die each year from legal drugs. Sports in the USA are loaded with drugs too. Every now and then a big scandal breaks over drugs in some sport or other, cycling, baseball, basketball, football, whatever. In wrestling and bodybuilding and powerlifting drugs is the name of the game. Boxers too. Everybody is looking for the edge. You ignored the salient point - Russian Boxers getting tested by a Las Vegas outfit vs the hypothetical US Boxers getting tested by a Grozny outfit. That, of course, would strike you as ridiculously unfair, but the former doesn't.