Thoughts now on size of HWs compared to other eras?

[Controversial]

Wasn't Fury dropped by the hard punching 16-0 - 5kos Neven Pajkic?

Yep. Doesn't mean he has a glass jaw though. I don't think guys like Lennox Lewis, Manny Pacquiao, Nigel Benn or Roberto Duran have bad chins either and they were actually knocked out.

[Ambling Alp II]

Nobody said he had a glass jaw. Just saying he doesn't have an iron chin. Obviously getting knocked down is not as bad as getting knocked out. However, it is an indication of not having a good chin of you get kncoked down a lot.
Btw-Fury didn't win the first Wilder fight.

Lewis was stopped twice, but the fight with McCall was a premature stoppage. The punch he took form Rahman was devastating; very few fighters would have survived that. (Though many never would have been with the punch in the first place, but that is a different story)

Lewis had a better chin than Fury. Ali had a lot better chin than Fury.

The Fury-Klitschko fight was a chess march? You have to be kidding. It more like a 12 round stare down. It was awful. Embarrassing performance by Fury. A great fighter would have had an easy time with Klitschko in that fight.

Fury is nowhere near Ali's league. There are many heavyweights between Ali and Fury. The scale isn't going to save fury if he was in the ring against a great fighter.

[HomicideHenry]

Regardless of what the record books say or the judges say, virtually every single person who saw the match thought Fury one the first fight despite being knocked down twice. And that was arguably the best version of Wilder, and most people acknowledge that Fury was probably only half the man he was when he beat Klitschko some years prior.

The different story ought to be talked about. A lot of people have criticized Lennox Lewis over the years saying no all time great would have ever gotten knocked out by McCall or Rahman. Personally I have a hard time imagining the one-dimensional Rahman being able to do much with Fury.

As of this writing, maybe. I would say Fury getting off the canvas against Wilder is comparable to Larry Holmes getting off the canvas against Earnie Shavers.

Woulda, shoulda, coulda. It's already been said many times that Tyson Fury's game plan was to outbox the so-called master tactician Klitschko, and between his herkey jerky movements and jabs and footwork and trash talking he made Klitschko look like a deer in the headlights most of the time, kind of like how Usyk befuddled Joshua.

Name them. And please be realistic and not nostalgically biased like earlier posts several months ago claiming that Ezzard Charles could have beaten Tyson Fury.

P.S. it's quite difficult to write somebody off especially when their career is not done yet. Fury still has potential matches with Whyte, Usyk, Joshua, Ruiz, Joyce, etc. What if he beats them all and retires undefeated? Regardless, as it stands now he certainly has the size and skills and abilities to give any heavyweight of all time problems.

[margaret thatcher]

lol , lewis was staggering like a drunk and falling on the ref vs mccall, dude was plastered

[Controversial]

Fury is nowhere near Ali's league. There are many heavyweights between Ali and Fury. The scale isn't going to save fury if he was in the ring against a great fighter.

If you are comparing careers and the lists of great names on it, then yes Ali's record is better. But careers are kind of irreverent in head to head matchups. Wilder landing his best punch on Joe Louis or Marciano would likely mean they would be out for the count. People can laugh but a hard punch is a hard punch. Ali being an ATG doesn't automatically mean he can handle a huge mobile boxer like Fury easily. Fury knows how to use his size, it would be a first for Ali fighting someone that heavy and tall. Pointing to how Ali danced away from smaller fighters as proof it would be the same result against Fury is silly. No one is saying Fury is the greatest HW ever but that doesn't mean he would be easy to beat. Jimmy Young had no punch and lost numerous times but still beat Lyle and Foreman and gave Norton and Ali close fights.

[DrDuke]

When it was Lewis vs Ali instead of Fury vs Ali, our lil alpy boi liked Lewis' chin less.

[evrenb]

Seems we can all pick and choose examples to fit our argument.
Yeah we can argue Wilder could have kayoed anyone. But we can say that of many grade b fighters. In my opinion based on what I have seen with my eyes and hearing opinions on opponents of said fighters I believe Ali would beat Fury and relatively easy. His resume is also far superior...and he was also not a proven cheat as Fury was.
I do not dismiss Fury's heart, ability, use of size for a minute. Just my opinion. And as someone wrote , it's hard to judge someone when their career is still happening. Look how revered the other Tyson was til he lost.

[Ambling Alp II]

Regardless of what the record books say or the judges say, virtually every single person who saw the match thought Fury one the first fight despite being knocked down twice. And that was arguably the best version of Wilder, and most people acknowledge that Fury was probably only half the man he was when he beat Klitschko some years prior.

The different story ought to be talked about. A lot of people have criticized Lennox Lewis over the years saying no all time great would have ever gotten knocked out by McCall or Rahman. Personally I have a hard time imagining the one-dimensional Rahman being able to do much with Fury.

As of this writing, maybe. I would say Fury getting off the canvas against Wilder is comparable to Larry Holmes getting off the canvas against Earnie Shavers.

Woulda, shoulda, coulda. It's already been said many times that Tyson Fury's game plan was to outbox the so-called master tactician Klitschko, and between his herkey jerky movements and jabs and footwork and trash talking he made Klitschko look like a deer in the headlights most of the time, kind of like how Usyk befuddled Joshua.

Name them. And please be realistic and not nostalgically biased like earlier posts several months ago claiming that Ezzard Charles could have beaten Tyson Fury.

P.S. it's quite difficult to write somebody off especially when their career is not done yet. Fury still has potential matches with Whyte, Usyk, Joshua, Ruiz, Joyce, etc. What if he beats them all and retires undefeated? Regardless, as it stands now he certainly has the size and skills and abilities to give any heavyweight of all time problems.

I was just saying that factually, fury did not beat Wilder in the first fight. Had he not been knocked down twice, he would have got the decision.

Rahman was not that good. However, that punch would have knocked out Fury. Lewis should have won, and should not have got caught with a punch like that. I was saying that just about anyone would not have survived that shot, including Fury. It does count against Lewis. However, if you look at the whole career, Lewis had a better chin than Fury.

Even we try to claim that Wilder hit as hard as Shavers, Holmes got knocked down once by Shavers. Fury got knocked down 4x by Wilder.

Fury looked like crap against Klitschko. Lets stop pretending it was some sort of boxing masterpiece. He won because the ancient Klitschko wasn't throwing anything.

Name the fighters who would have beat Fury? OK of the top of my head: Joe Louis, Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Sonny Liston, Larry Holmes, Lennox Lewis, Evander Holyfield, Mike Tyson.

No Fury's career is not done yet. Only going on what we have seen so far. that's all we can do.

[Ambling Alp II]

Fury is nowhere near Ali's league. There are many heavyweights between Ali and Fury. The scale isn't going to save fury if he was in the ring against a great fighter.

If you are comparing careers and the lists of great names on it, then yes Ali's record is better. But careers are kind of irreverent in head to head matchups. Wilder landing his best punch on Joe Louis or Marciano would likely mean they would be out for the count. People can laugh but a hard punch is a hard punch. Ali being an ATG doesn't automatically mean he can handle a huge mobile boxer like Fury easily. Fury knows how to use his size, it would be a first for Ali fighting someone that heavy and tall. Pointing to how Ali danced away from smaller fighters as proof it would be the same result against Fury is silly. No one is saying Fury is the greatest HW ever but that doesn't mean he would be easy to beat. Jimmy Young had no punch and lost numerous times but still beat Lyle and Foreman and gave Norton and Ali close fights.

We don't know that Wilder would have knocked out Louis or Marciano had he landed those shots. Wilder never fought anyone else worth mentioning.
Fury is only mobile for his size. Ali was much much more mobile. Ali fought several other opponents who were more mobile than Fury.
Being a far better fighter means something. There is a reason why someone is a lot better than other. It means he does a lot of things better. Jimmy Young has little power but for a few years he was a very good fighter who did other things well.

Keep hearing about Fury's height and how would Ali adjust to it. Ali fought many different styles of fighters and adjusted. Fury has fought Deontay Wilder and an ancient Klitschko. You have to factor in how Fury would have adjusted to a prime Ali. You keep ignoring that.

[Controversial]

Fury is nowhere near Ali's league. There are many heavyweights between Ali and Fury. The scale isn't going to save fury if he was in the ring against a great fighter.

If you are comparing careers and the lists of great names on it, then yes Ali's record is better. But careers are kind of irreverent in head to head matchups. Wilder landing his best punch on Joe Louis or Marciano would likely mean they would be out for the count. People can laugh but a hard punch is a hard punch. Ali being an ATG doesn't automatically mean he can handle a huge mobile boxer like Fury easily. Fury knows how to use his size, it would be a first for Ali fighting someone that heavy and tall. Pointing to how Ali danced away from smaller fighters as proof it would be the same result against Fury is silly. No one is saying Fury is the greatest HW ever but that doesn't mean he would be easy to beat. Jimmy Young had no punch and lost numerous times but still beat Lyle and Foreman and gave Norton and Ali close fights.

We don't know that Wilder would have knocked out Louis or Marciano had he landed those shots. Wilder never fought anyone else worth mentioning.
Fury is only mobile for his size. Ali was much much more mobile. Ali fought several other opponents who were more mobile than Fury.
Being a far better fighter means something. There is a reason why someone is a lot better than other. It means he does a lot of things better. Jimmy Young has little power but for a few years he was a very good fighter who did other things well.

Keep hearing about Fury's height and how would Ali adjust to it. Ali fought many different styles of fighters and adjusted. Fury has fought Deontay Wilder and an ancient Klitschko. You have to factor in how Fury would have adjusted to a prime Ali. You keep ignoring that.

Wilder hits pretty hard, fighters like Marciano and Louis are only human and anyone can be knocked out.

Yes of course being good means something but boxing isn't that black and white. Great fighters struggle all the time, they lose to underdogs, they struggle in fights and look average. All of them. Just because one fighter looks great in his career doesn't mean they can replicate the same results against completely different fighters. If that was the case then the underdog would never win. Jimmy Young was successful because he was awkward to fight and he beat some good fighters and gave others trouble too.

The prime Ali was fast and danced away, a lot of his opponents fought dumb and followed him, walking onto his punches. When you are taller and have a reach advantage that makes hitting people easier and avoiding their punches easier too. Thats what Ali banked on, tiring guys out, hitting them, moving away and countering them. I just don't see Fury fighting that way, love him or hate him he has a good boxing brain and can adjust styles. As good as they were guys like Foreman, Liston, Frazier etc only knew one way to fight. Awkward fighters are hard to fight against because they don't always follow the same strategy. Quite often boxers say their hardest fights are against novices because often they don't know what they are going to do next, the successful ones are easier to read. Fury isn't easy to read and his size just adds to the problem.

[Ambling Alp II]

Ali fought guys with different kinds of styles. He was always fighting someone different. Fury hasn't. It is Fury who is much less likely to adapt to something different.

Fury beat Wilder and has nothing else. We don't know that Fury could just to different styles. So far, he just had to fight Wilder three times. Wilder has a lot of weakness, but is the best he has fought. He didn't have to make adjustments. Wilder was nothing like Ali.

Fury has no track record to go on. For starters, could Fury deal with with that kind of hand speed?
Someone who could throw a lot of punches.
Someone that is hard to hit.
Some that threw a lot of combinations.
Someone with a great jab.

He never had to deal with any of that. All he has ever had to deal with is a guy who throws a bomb once in a while.

[Onetimeonly]

I'd be very surprised if Louis didn't stop wilder inside 3 rounds. Deontay has heart but Joe punches much harder, and more important accurately than fury.

[Controversial]

Ali fought guys with different kinds of styles. He was always fighting someone different. Fury hasn't. It is Fury who is much less likely to adapt to something different.

Fury beat Wilder and has nothing else. We don't know that Fury could just to different styles. So far, he just had to fight Wilder three times. Wilder has a lot of weakness, but is the best he has fought. He didn't have to make adjustments. Wilder was nothing like Ali.

Fury has no track record to go on. For starters, could Fury deal with with that kind of hand speed?
Someone who could throw a lot of punches.
Someone that is hard to hit.
Some that threw a lot of combinations.
Someone with a great jab.

He never had to deal with any of that. All he has ever had to deal with is a guy who throws a bomb once in a while.

Fury fought Wilder at range in their first fight, second fight he changed tact and met Wilder head on. Against Chisora he boxed southpaw the long periods of the fight and has switch hit in others. Fury isn't a fighter that looks great though, he doesn't have a highlight reel of knockouts but his style and size make him very awkward. Plus I think Fury is the type of guy that needs the big fights to perform. But he can adapt in fights better than most and doesn't' get fazed by mind games. Jimmy Young wasn't a great watch either, awkward, defensive and no power but gave lots of great fighters trouble.

[margaret thatcher]

Fury beat Wilder and has nothing else. We don't know that Fury could just to different styles. .

Well I mean James Toney only beat 1 top 20 cruiser in his life and never made a singe title defense, yet you rate him higher as a cruiser than guys who cleared out the division, becoming undisputed champ by beating multiple other top rated champs and contenders who brought very different styles

nice consistent alp

[DrDuke]

Fury beat Wilder and has nothing else. We don't know that Fury could just to different styles. .

Well I mean James Toney only beat 1 top 20 cruiser in his life and never made a singe title defense, yet you rate him higher as a cruiser than guys who cleared out the division, becoming undisputed champ by beating multiple other top rated champs and contenders who brought very different styles

nice consistent alp

Someone gotta call in the ambulance for the guy...

[Ambling Alp II]

Fury beat Wilder and has nothing else. We don't know that Fury could just to different styles. .

Well I mean James Toney only beat 1 top 20 cruiser in his life and never made a singe title defense, yet you rate him higher as a cruiser than guys who cleared out the division, becoming undisputed champ by beating multiple other top rated champs and contenders who brought very different styles

nice consistent alp

I am the one not being consistent? Wow.
Usyk beat mutliple WBS champs vs Toney beating a guy better than them.
Ali's resume vs Fury paper thin one.
Which one is more debatable?

Thought Toney's best win was better than Usyk's. Thought he looked better. You don't, fine. You have gone and on about it for months.
You think Usyk's resume was better than Toney. Yet you somehow don't seem to have a problem with that when it come to Fury and Ali.
Toney didn't almost get ko'd twice like Fury did.
Ali's victim's list light years better than all those great cruiserweights that Usyk. And light years better than Fury. Or are we going to seriously argue this as well?

[evrenb]

Just look at Ali here...sublime...

[margaret thatcher]

Fury beat Wilder and has nothing else. We don't know that Fury could just to different styles. .

Well I mean James Toney only beat 1 top 20 cruiser in his life and never made a singe title defense, yet you rate him higher as a cruiser than guys who cleared out the division, becoming undisputed champ by beating multiple other top rated champs and contenders who brought very different styles

nice consistent alp

I am the one not being consistent? Wow.
Usyk beat mutliple WBS champs vs Toney beating a guy better than them.
Ali's resume vs Fury paper thin one.
Which one is more debatable?

Thought Toney's best win was better than Usyk's. Thought he looked better. You don't, fine. You have gone and on about it for months.
You think Usyk's resume was better than Toney. Yet you somehow don't seem to have a problem with that when it come to Fury and Ali.
Toney didn't almost get ko'd twice like Fury did.
Ali's victim's list light years better than all those great cruiserweights that Usyk. And light years better than Fury. Or are we going to seriously argue this as well?

lol, youre knocking fury for having in your estimation 1 big win/opponent, yet that means nothing to you in the same situation with 2 other fighters. and unlike toney at cw, fury actually has multiple big wins....and a title defense !

showing you have no clue about modern cruisers either, all the champs usyk beat were top 5 in the division at the time, and he beat the next highest rated guy in the division multiple times, as well as the current highest rated guy. not total scrubs like pretty much everyone toney faced at the weight

better sharpen dem eyes too, i already said ali >fury, in ability and resume. that's not a clown opinion, like toney > usyk at cw. basically, you start with 'this fighter fought before the other one, therefore they are better' and then bend and twist your logic to fit that. knockdowns outside ali's prime (1 fight before he won the title) mean nothing, but let's mention cunningham dropping fury for the millonth time

[Cojimar 1946]

Fury beat Wilder and has nothing else. We don't know that Fury could just to different styles. .

Well I mean James Toney only beat 1 top 20 cruiser in his life and never made a singe title defense, yet you rate him higher as a cruiser than guys who cleared out the division, becoming undisputed champ by beating multiple other top rated champs and contenders who brought very different styles

nice consistent alp

I am the one not being consistent? Wow.
Usyk beat mutliple WBS champs vs Toney beating a guy better than them.
Ali's resume vs Fury paper thin one.
Which one is more debatable?

Thought Toney's best win was better than Usyk's. Thought he looked better. You don't, fine. You have gone and on about it for months.
You think Usyk's resume was better than Toney. Yet you somehow don't seem to have a problem with that when it come to Fury and Ali.
Toney didn't almost get ko'd twice like Fury did.
Ali's victim's list light years better than all those great cruiserweights that Usyk. And light years better than Fury. Or are we going to seriously argue this as well?

Usyk's cruiserweight resume is clearly better than Toney's. I don't see how this is in any way arguable

[margaret thatcher]

it's not even close, toney beat a single top 20 cruiser in his whole career and never made a single title defense. jirov was good but hardly any level higher than the best cruisers usyk beat. breids, huck, gassov all have better wins than he did

usyk cleaned out the division, beating the next best guys multiple times and the current top guy. he did all the things at cruiser that alpy usually claims to value, but of course since he's an active fighter he gets the usual treatment


and now, alp is going on about fury only having 1 big name win at heavy. suddenly 1 big win means f@ck all lol. and of course that totally ignroes the fight where fury beat the long time #1

[Ambling Alp II]

Just look at Ali here...sublime...

Good post.
I'm sure Fury would have no trouble handling that.

[margaret thatcher]

how about fury vs slick big cat williams, who was so hard to hit he was only dropped 25 times

[Ambling Alp II]

It was the first time in 6 years. But yeah, lets count all the times when he was way past it. sounds fair.

The real questions are: Who has Fury fought that has remotely as close of hand speed?
And how does Fury handle that hand speed?

Love to hear the answer. Instead we will probably again be hearing about James Toney or the chin of Cleveland Williams.

[margaret thatcher]

It was the first time in 6 years. But yeah, lets count all the times when he was way past it. sounds fair.

The real questions are: Who has Fury fought that has remotely as close of hand speed?
And how does Fury handle that hand speed?

Love to hear the answer. Instead we will probably again be hearing about James Toney or the chin of Cleveland Williams.

ya, or maybe you'll mention fury getting dropped by cunningham for the 10,000th time.... only that knockdown counts! everyone else getting dropped was out of their prime

[oogiebe]

"Love Ali. Absolutely love him.

but to counter Alp's points, when did Ali ever fight a 6' 9" 275 LB guy who can move and had the skills of Fury? Cuts both ways. Sorry to butt in, however I'm getting sick of the weak ass arguments on a definitive outcome.

Not saying Fury is the GOAT, but to say Ali beats him easily without a doubt is just plain stupid.