BoxRec

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑07 Apr 2024, 11:01 If this is the fight I am thinking of, it was ruled a DQ at the time. Then it was after changed to a TKO.

NazNaci1 wrote: ↑11 Apr 2024, 12:11 Not really defending him.

Resume is solid, won titles, was exciting and skilled and would pulverise everything after Lennox Lewis's era.

Not the greatest or anything but a great fighter who fought decent men, was undisputed champ and lost some. That is it, really.

We can disagree, which is fine.

NazNaci1 wrote: ↑10 Apr 2024, 18:50 Not sure why this insistence that Mike was hype. Was he a great fighter, yes. An ATG, well, certainly in the top 15-20 Heavyweights. His resume is solid and obliterates modern day Heavyweights.

Jesse Ferguson (fought a lot of contenders and beat Ray Mercer).
Jose Ribalta (fought all the the top contenders)
James Smith (ex WBA Champ and one of the few to KO Witherspoon).
Pinklon Thomas (ex WBC Champ fought some good fighters)
Tony Tucker (ex IBF Champ,fought some good opponents and gave Bowe a tough fight)
Tyrell Biggs (Olympic Gold medalist who gave Bowe a very tough fight)
Larry Holmes (old, yes, but still had some fine wins and performances at his advanced age).
Tony Tubbs (ex WBA Champ, fought a lot contenders)
Michael Spinks ( ex LH and IBF Champ)
Frank Bruno x 2 (ex WBC Champ and fought some decent contenders)
Alex Stewart (fought a lot of contenders and gave Big George all he could handle)
Donovan Ruddock x 2,
Bruce Seldon (ex WBA Champ)
Frans Botha (ex IBF Champ)
Orlin Norris (ex WBO Champ)
Andrew Golota,(battered Bowe twice).

Yes, he lost to 'Vander, Douglas, Lewis and some others. The only defeats that were anywhere near his prime were the Douglas and Holyfield I fights. All the others were when he was nowhere near what he was. That is a fact.

Do some overinflate his standing? Yes. Do others downplay his resume and skills? Definitely.

Holyfield was a great fighter but just too small for Bowe and Lewis but fought and had some great wins.

Then you look at Bowe, ran away from Lewis, literally, went 2-1 vs the much smaller (albeit, great Holyfield) and got pummelled by Golata twice and that's it.

Lewis was a dominant Champ, although suffered a couple of blips. The Klitschko's, although also dominant, their resumes do not compare.

....and then you look at Fury and, laughably, Wilder's resume.....and people think Mike was hype?

Jakub079 wrote: ↑13 Apr 2024, 02:25 Really? Have you thought this through? Don't get me wrong, it may seem like that but... I have been analyzing the careers of heavyweight fighters for many years, from various angles. And I know how much marketing, circumstances, various aspects mean... in my opinion, Tyson is hugely underrated today. Realistically, it could be the top 3-5 when it comes to HW ever. I don't mean H2H, just real achievements. Of course, it is largely a matter of interpretation and a matter of convention, but if I didn't exercise my mind, it would be impossible to objectively throw it out of the top 5, but of course I respect every substantive opinion. Tyson's assessment is difficult because he had several stages. In the last one he was a ypurneyman, although in terms of marketing he was a star. I suspect that the author of the post is confusing these concepts and Tyson after 1995 is someone on the level of Jesse Ferguson 1986, but the hype is huge, Tyson from 2002 is a fighter who would have no chance against Alex Stewart and yet he received 20 million for the fight. However, nothing happened without a reason.

NazNaci1 wrote: ↑13 Apr 2024, 12:07

Jakub079 wrote: ↑13 Apr 2024, 02:25 Really? Have you thought this through? Don't get me wrong, it may seem like that but... I have been analyzing the careers of heavyweight fighters for many years, from various angles. And I know how much marketing, circumstances, various aspects mean... in my opinion, Tyson is hugely underrated today. Realistically, it could be the top 3-5 when it comes to HW ever. I don't mean H2H, just real achievements. Of course, it is largely a matter of interpretation and a matter of convention, but if I didn't exercise my mind, it would be impossible to objectively throw it out of the top 5, but of course I respect every substantive opinion. Tyson's assessment is difficult because he had several stages. In the last one he was a ypurneyman, although in terms of marketing he was a star. I suspect that the author of the post is confusing these concepts and Tyson after 1995 is someone on the level of Jesse Ferguson 1986, but the hype is huge, Tyson from 2002 is a fighter who would have no chance against Alex Stewart and yet he received 20 million for the fight. However, nothing happened without a reason.

Correct, a lot is down to interpretation. Very marketable, the 'fear factor' and yes, hype.

Of course, as his career went on, it became less about his abilities and more of what he once was. Should that detract from his past accomplishments, I do not believe so. though the hype carried through.

I think its makes more sense to say 'a big example of great marketing and hype, post 1996' as prior to this, well circa 1986-1989, there is no doubt hype was there, as well as marketing but there is ability, performances and a resume to back this up. Throw in a decent run and list of opponents from 1990 - 1996, and although clearly not what he once was, his previous accomplishments and performances carried this. Mike Tyson is Mike Tyson and even today, he would be well paid as people still remember. This shouldn't reason alone to label him 'hype'.

Wilder is a much more recent example of trying to create 'hype and marketing'. Why? Because he has a big punch and people love KOs (his resume is awful, however). GGG was the same, to a degree. It is a blessing and curse, somewhat.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote: ↑17 Apr 2024, 12:45

NazNaci1 wrote: ↑13 Apr 2024, 12:07

Jakub079 wrote: ↑13 Apr 2024, 02:25 Really? Have you thought this through? Don't get me wrong, it may seem like that but... I have been analyzing the careers of heavyweight fighters for many years, from various angles. And I know how much marketing, circumstances, various aspects mean... in my opinion, Tyson is hugely underrated today. Realistically, it could be the top 3-5 when it comes to HW ever. I don't mean H2H, just real achievements. Of course, it is largely a matter of interpretation and a matter of convention, but if I didn't exercise my mind, it would be impossible to objectively throw it out of the top 5, but of course I respect every substantive opinion. Tyson's assessment is difficult because he had several stages. In the last one he was a ypurneyman, although in terms of marketing he was a star. I suspect that the author of the post is confusing these concepts and Tyson after 1995 is someone on the level of Jesse Ferguson 1986, but the hype is huge, Tyson from 2002 is a fighter who would have no chance against Alex Stewart and yet he received 20 million for the fight. However, nothing happened without a reason.

Correct, a lot is down to interpretation. Very marketable, the 'fear factor' and yes, hype.

Of course, as his career went on, it became less about his abilities and more of what he once was. Should that detract from his past accomplishments, I do not believe so. though the hype carried through.

I think its makes more sense to say 'a big example of great marketing and hype, post 1996' as prior to this, well circa 1986-1989, there is no doubt hype was there, as well as marketing but there is ability, performances and a resume to back this up. Throw in a decent run and list of opponents from 1990 - 1996, and although clearly not what he once was, his previous accomplishments and performances carried this. Mike Tyson is Mike Tyson and even today, he would be well paid as people still remember. This shouldn't reason alone to label him 'hype'.

Wilder is a much more recent example of trying to create 'hype and marketing'. Why? Because he has a big punch and people love KOs (his resume is awful, however). GGG was the same, to a degree. It is a blessing and curse, somewhat.

- Other factors of Mike's popularity beside the KO excitement was that he was record setting Heavy who was so young and well spoken, in particular to boxing history where he outstripped most all of the media airheads

Then a juvenile delinquent turning his life around, an All American Horatio Alger success that resulted in such a spectacular beginning that even the crusty old salts who seldom like newer generations were saying Mike might well be the best heavyweight ever. No 21 year old kid ever had that kind of respect. Ring's P4P Debut had Mike as #1, think about that.

His collapse starts with the deaths of his beloved mentors Jacobs and Cus. So vulturous DKing and Robin Givens and other greedy sycophants sank their greedy fangs into him where he ends up in prison while his $50Mil Retirement Annuity is sacked, yet even his slow motion trainwreck was a succession of huge media attentions.

Yet here he is back again after having managed to recreate himself yet again as a Businessman and Media Boxing Exhibition Bonanza.

Without Mike, nobody remembers that era they were so boring.