BoxRec

I'm shocked at what I'm reading here... Douglas was the first to stand up to Tyson and stick his jab in his face. Tyson may have been ill-prepared, he may have been poorly trained but he mentally disintegrated. As for the Holyfield fight, Holy was the one who had looked past his peak. Tyson was still a young man who had it all to fight for. I thought he would use an over the hill Holyfield's name to push himself back to the top. Holyfield beat him so badly that in the rematch (how many more chances did Tyson need?) Tyson bailed out early because it was obvious he wouldn't win. Now a great, a true great, would have hung on in there and fought back, tried to find a way to win the bout, or at least gone out on his shield. Tyson chose not to. He chose to find a way out. That tells you everything about the man and the fighter.

Now take your 24 year old Tyson and put him in a ring with any of the greats. Tyson has the speed, the power, the motivation but he still (and always did) lacks a champions heart. Tyson always has a chance because of his power but whatever condition he's in (or isn't in) you can't argue with the fact that he never beat anyone who wasn't scared of him and, just like Holyfield, Ali, Holmes, Louis, Johnson, and the rest are not going to be scared of him.

Well said Ezzard.

Tyson had the physical ability to give any Heavyweight a lot of problems but always lacked the mental toughness and strength of character to rank amongst the elite of the Heavyweight great.

Tyson has often been compared to Joe Frazier, but Frazier NEVER resorted to chewing off ears or trying to break an opponents arm when thinks were not going his way. Frazier just fought back harder like true Champions do.

KOJOE90 wrote:Well said Ezzard.

Tyson has often been compared to Joe Frazier, but Frazier NEVER resorted to chewing off ears or trying to break an opponents arm when thinks were not going his way. Frazier just fought back harder like true Champions do.

That's it in a nutshell. Frazier wouldn't even stray down when Foreman was bouncing him off the canvas. Frazier took a beating off Ali and nearly came back to win the thrilla in manila. People overlook Joe. He gave it his all every time he set foot in the ring and he can walk with his head held high. Even an out of shape Joe would have beaten Douglas. It took a great Heavyweight to beat Frazier.

Ezzard wrote:

KOJOE90 wrote:Well said Ezzard.

Tyson has often been compared to Joe Frazier, but Frazier NEVER resorted to chewing off ears or trying to break an opponents arm when thinks were not going his way. Frazier just fought back harder like true Champions do.

That's it in a nutshell. Frazier wouldn't even stray down when Foreman was bouncing him off the canvas. Frazier took a beating off Ali and nearly came back to win the thrilla in manila. People overlook Joe. He gave it his all every time he set foot in the ring and he can walk with his head held high. Even an out of shape Joe would have beaten Douglas. It took a great Heavyweight to beat Frazier.

I have to second what both of you said.

Tyson should not be compared to Frazier.

Frazier had the heart of 2 lions & was a true champ!

Tyson is just the biggest coward & bully ever to step into the ring.

He couldn't have beaten Ali, even if Ali had both arms handcuffed!

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Ezzard wrote:

KOJOE90 wrote:Well said Ezzard.

Tyson has often been compared to Joe Frazier, but Frazier NEVER resorted to chewing off ears or trying to break an opponents arm when thinks were not going his way. Frazier just fought back harder like true Champions do.

That's it in a nutshell. Frazier wouldn't even stray down when Foreman was bouncing him off the canvas. Frazier took a beating off Ali and nearly came back to win the thrilla in manila. People overlook Joe. He gave it his all every time he set foot in the ring and he can walk with his head held high. Even an out of shape Joe would have beaten Douglas. It took a great Heavyweight to beat Frazier.

I have to second what both of you said.

Tyson should not be compared to Frazier.

Frazier had the heart of 2 lions & was a true champ!

Tyson is just the biggest coward & bully ever to step into the ring.

He couldn't have beaten Ali, even if Ali had both arms handcuffed!

It's amazing how many Tyson fanatics think otherwise...they watch a couple of old films and think...'Oh wow, nobody can beat him!'...but then they have nothing but excuses for losing to Douglas in his prime, losing to Holyfield twice, ear biting, quitting, etc....If you want to evaluate someone, you have to look at the 'whole picture'...in Tyson's case, that picture gets real ugly, real early in his career...none of the great champions he's compared to had so many problems so early...and they won major fights into their 30's unlike Tyson, who never won a meaningful fight after the 1980's

There is one thing that Tyson is the greatest at: He's the biggest bust in heavyweight history

Sweet Scientist wrote:

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Ezzard wrote: That's it in a nutshell. Frazier wouldn't even stray down when Foreman was bouncing him off the canvas. Frazier took a beating off Ali and nearly came back to win the thrilla in manila. People overlook Joe. He gave it his all every time he set foot in the ring and he can walk with his head held high. Even an out of shape Joe would have beaten Douglas. It took a great Heavyweight to beat Frazier.

I have to second what both of you said.

Tyson should not be compared to Frazier.

Frazier had the heart of 2 lions & was a true champ!

Tyson is just the biggest coward & bully ever to step into the ring.

He couldn't have beaten Ali, even if Ali had both arms handcuffed!

It's amazing how many Tyson fanatics think otherwise...they watch a couple of old films and think...'Oh wow, nobody can beat him!'...but then they have nothing but excuses for losing to Douglas in his prime, losing to Holyfield twice, ear biting, quitting, etc....If you want to evaluate someone, you have to look at the 'whole picture'...in Tyson's case, that picture gets real ugly, real early in his career...none of the great champions he's compared to had so many problems so early...and they won major fights into their 30's unlike Tyson, who never won a meaningful fight after the 1980's

There is one thing that Tyson is the greatest at: He's the biggest bust in heavyweight history

2nd biggest bust in heavyweight history.

1st was Leon Spinks.

And the biggest bust in welterweight history is Mia St. John.

The thing with Tyson was that in the 1980's he was the perfect 'video' Heavyweight. As in you put a compilation together of his KO victorys and he looked the greatest fighter ever.

It's only when you look more closely at his ability and career as a whole you realise he was far from the best fighter or even Heavyweight ever..

Grimm wrote:
2nd biggest bust in heavyweight history.

1st was Leon Spinks.

I think Tyson was the bigger 'bust' because Tyson had about 25 times the talent of Leon Spinks...The only reason on earth that Spinks is even mentioned here is because an old, over the hill, ridiculoulsy out of shape, Muhammad Ali (who should have been long retired), turned Spinks into a champion, something he never would have been otherwise...


...and...didn't you say a few posts up that a prime Tyson beats Ali? Now Tyson's (according to you) the 2nd biggest bust in heavyweight history?

Change your mind much?

ali lost to spinks on purpose because he knew spinks would grant him a rematch and then he could become the first 3 time heavyweight champion after he won the rematch which he did decisevley.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:ali lost to spinks on purpose because he knew spinks would grant him a rematch and then he could become the first 3 time heavyweight champion after he won the rematch which he did decisevley.

That's so utterly ridiculous it doesn't deserve a response...where did you read that? Do you ever post anything you know???

KOJOE90 wrote:The thing with Tyson was that in the 1980's he was the perfect 'video' Heavyweight. As in you put a compilation together of his KO victorys and he looked the greatest fighter ever.

It's only when you look more closely at his ability and career as a whole you realise he was far from the best fighter or even Heavyweight ever..

That's very true!

Sweet Scientist wrote:

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Ezzard wrote: That's it in a nutshell. Frazier wouldn't even stray down when Foreman was bouncing him off the canvas. Frazier took a beating off Ali and nearly came back to win the thrilla in manila. People overlook Joe. He gave it his all every time he set foot in the ring and he can walk with his head held high. Even an out of shape Joe would have beaten Douglas. It took a great Heavyweight to beat Frazier.

I have to second what both of you said.

Tyson should not be compared to Frazier.

Frazier had the heart of 2 lions & was a true champ!

Tyson is just the biggest coward & bully ever to step into the ring.

He couldn't have beaten Ali, even if Ali had both arms handcuffed!

It's amazing how many Tyson fanatics think otherwise...they watch a couple of old films and think...'Oh wow, nobody can beat him!'...but then they have nothing but excuses for losing to Douglas in his prime, losing to Holyfield twice, ear biting, quitting, etc....If you want to evaluate someone, you have to look at the 'whole picture'...in Tyson's case, that picture gets real ugly, real early in his career...none of the great champions he's compared to had so many problems so early...and they won major fights into their 30's unlike Tyson, who never won a meaningful fight after the 1980's

There is one thing that Tyson is the greatest at: He's the biggest bust in heavyweight history

You can't argue with that.

Sweet Scientist wrote:

Grimm wrote:
2nd biggest bust in heavyweight history.

1st was Leon Spinks.

I think Tyson was the bigger 'bust' because Tyson had about 25 times the talent of Leon Spinks...The only reason on earth that Spinks is even mentioned here is because an old, over the hill, ridiculoulsy out of shape, Muhammad Ali (who should have been long retired), turned Spinks into a champion, something he never would have been otherwise...


...and...didn't you say a few posts up that a prime Tyson beats Ali? Now Tyson's (according to you) the 2nd biggest bust in heavyweight history?

Change your mind much?

Yes I still say that Tyson would beat Ali.

When you say bust do you mean lost it all?

Because if so I say Tyson is one of the biggest busts in heavyweight history.

He had it all and then he lost it, but when he had it I think he could beat anyone.

Grimm wrote:

Sweet Scientist wrote:

Grimm wrote:
2nd biggest bust in heavyweight history.

1st was Leon Spinks.

I think Tyson was the bigger 'bust' because Tyson had about 25 times the talent of Leon Spinks...The only reason on earth that Spinks is even mentioned here is because an old, over the hill, ridiculoulsy out of shape, Muhammad Ali (who should have been long retired), turned Spinks into a champion, something he never would have been otherwise...


...and...didn't you say a few posts up that a prime Tyson beats Ali? Now Tyson's (according to you) the 2nd biggest bust in heavyweight history?

Change your mind much?

Yes I still say that Tyson would beat Ali.

When you say bust do you mean lost it all?

Because if so I say Tyson is one of the biggest busts in heavyweight history.

He had it all and then he lost it, but when he had it I think he could beat anyone.

Bust means...a huge failure...flawed to begin with...not of true all time championship calibre...couldn't cut the mustard...not up to all time champion standards...doesn't belong in the top 10...didn't live up to his potential...squandered his talent...became a dirty fighter (ear biting, arm breaking)...a real piece of work...garbage...a waste...washed up at 24...just another short term title holder, etc.

...get the picture yet?

maybe I should add the multiple suspensions, poor behavior in and out of the ring, a virtual idiot, unable to cope with adversity, unable to 'bully' top contenders, unable to impose his will on himself, let alone his top opponents...

...get the picture yet?

...he looked like he was on his way to immortality, but then couldn't follow through and stand the test of time...he blew it...couldn't stand up to anyone in the all time top 10...couldn't stand up to anyone in the top 15, maybe 20...he beat himself...

...get the picture yet?...understand?...

Hey its my opinion. Ali was coming off wins over earnie shavers over 15 rounds and he would have had to lose a lot of ability to then drop his next fight to spinks. shavers was better than spinks. and spinks couldnt even beat scott leduex, he was lucky for that draw. u saw how ali beat him easily in his next fight. was it ali didnt train hard for the first fight and took him lightly then trained hard and was serious and won the rematch??? very possible. but its just a hunch that i have that ali did that so he could win the title for the 3rd time. him losing and winning the title in a rematch for his 3rd title is worth a whole more than just beating a novice outclassed fighter.

I dont think tyson would have beat ali, but had a very good chance of catching hi mearly especially if ali clowns around. if the a fantasy fight bewteen the two, i had tyson dropping ali early but ali coming back and jabbing and moving and frustrating and taunting tyson and tyson might break and lose focus and ali would stop him in about the 13th.

tyson may be the biggest bust, but still deserves at least top ten mention in all time heavyweight rankings. I have him at # 4 and most of it is due to how devastating he was in his prime and i am one of those firm believers he was never the same after 1988. i believe if he could have gone undefeated for a long time more and beat douglas and hoylfield if his life and mental state of mind didnt get ruined. it would have also helped if he had kevin rooney.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:tyson may be the biggest bust, but still deserves at least top ten mention in all time heavyweight rankings. I have him at # 4 and most of it is due to how devastating he was in his prime and i am one of those firm believers he was never the same after 1988. i believe if he could have gone undefeated for a long time more and beat douglas and hoylfield if his life and mental state of mind didnt get ruined. it would have also helped if he had kevin rooney.

Truth is, he never would have beaten Holyfield no matter when they fought. Refer his mental fragility and inability to respond positively when under fire and the opponent isn't intimidated. For that he doesn't even deserve to be in the top 10

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote: but its just a hunch that i have that ali did that so he could win the title for the 3rd time. him losing and winning the title in a rematch for his 3rd title is worth a whole more than just beating a novice outclassed fighter

...And what did it get him, winning the title for a 3rd time? What was it worth to throw a fight so he could win the title the 3rd time?...you act like there was a prize involved...what was it? Ridiculous!

He should have been retired for over 2 years anyway, by the time he fought Spinks...all he got by fighting after 1975, was a case of Parkinsons Syndrome...his current, sad medical condition...

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:tyson may be the biggest bust, but still deserves at least top ten mention in all time heavyweight rankings. I have him at # 4 and most of it is due to how devastating he was in his prime and i am one of those firm believers he was never the same after 1988. i believe if he could have gone undefeated for a long time more and beat douglas and hoylfield if his life and mental state of mind didnt get ruined. it would have also helped if he had kevin rooney.

If Tyson had died in a plane crash in 1989, when he was 37-0-0 and 24 years old...it might be difficult to argue with you...

But he didn't...he went on to prove the complete opposite...

All the reasons have been pointed out to you...

Accept them...or reject them...use your own best judgement...but if you're smart...you won't just judge him by those '80's highlight reels...the story didn't end there...

If you had his highlight reel you might think Robert Horry is the greatest player in NBA history......

bretpainter wrote:If you had his highlight reel you might think Robert Horry is the greatest player in NBA history......

I'd rather see Wilt Chamberlain's highlight reel of his after game activities... 10,000 women, now that would be a highlight reel...

speaking of chamberlin, i would have love to see his tall ass get knocked out by muhammad ali. TIMBERRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sweet Scientist wrote:

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote: but its just a hunch that i have that ali did that so he could win the title for the 3rd time. him losing and winning the title in a rematch for his 3rd title is worth a whole more than just beating a novice outclassed fighter

...And what did it get him, winning the title for a 3rd time? What was it worth to throw a fight so he could win the title the 3rd time?...you act like there was a prize involved...what was it? Ridiculous!

One major factor regarding Ali & Spinks 1 & 2 is that for the rematch Ali trained a little harder and Spinks just partyed harder, with very little training.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:speaking of chamberlin, i would have love to see his tall ass get knocked out by muhammad ali. TIMBERRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In Tyson's case it really seems that Tyson's youth did not prevent his skills from deteorating considerably. Contrary to what some people have suggested I have heard that Tyson's decline first became evident in the first Frank Bruno fight. Tyson still had considerable power but it seems that he lost the handspeed and movement he exhibited in his prime by the time he fought Douglas.