BoxRec

Mikee finally anwers.

Good for you Mikee.

Suggestion: Don't be so SELECTIVE next time.

granberry wrote:Mikee finally anwers.

Good for you Mikee.

Suggestion: Don't be so SELECTIVE next time.

I don't really concern myself with what people expect of me on here, but at least we can get back on topic (for what its worth anyway).

Suggestion: Don't get so STRESSED all the time.

Mikee wrote:

granberry wrote:Mikee finally anwers.

Good for you Mikee.

Suggestion: Don't be so SELECTIVE next time.

I don't really concern myself with what people expect of me on here, but at least we can get back on topic (for what its worth anyway).

Suggestion: Don't get so STRESSED all the time.

Mikee,

I see you are an amateur psychiatrist.

And that is in addition to your appointing yourself as the very SELECTIVE Emily Post of this site.

But I haven't seen you "get back on topic" yet.

I am sure you will,

once you finish your critique of manners here and your pyschiatric analyses.

granberry wrote:

Mikee wrote:

granberry wrote:Mikee finally anwers.

Good for you Mikee.

Suggestion: Don't be so SELECTIVE next time.

I don't really concern myself with what people expect of me on here, but at least we can get back on topic (for what its worth anyway).

Suggestion: Don't get so STRESSED all the time.

Mikee,

I see you are an amateur psychiatrist.

And that is in addition to your appointing yourself as the very SELECTIVE Emily Post of this site.

But I haven't seen you "get back on topic" yet.

I am sure you will,

once you finish your critique of manners here and your pyschiatric analyses.

Indeed just as granberry has in this fine example of work.

So that I don't fall prey to the same deficit....I will say that though Ali is likely to always be somewhat overated due to his remarkable marketing abilities and the passion of his fans, He is still fairly and squarely rated in the top 3 HW's champions by his demonstrated abilities and by the vast majority of INFORMED (and yes granberry uninformed as well) boxing enthusiasts.

But he is so far away from the "all hype no substance" fighter that granberry seemingly wants to portray that this low opinion of the man is just laughable.

And the method that granberry uses to make his points is repeatable for just about anyone you name....please refer to expug's contribution on this subject for perspective.

IMHO.

granberry wrote:
IrishRufusMurphy wrote:
I didn't say Sullivan 'fought them all' Granberry, I said 'fought all the POLICE GAZETTE could throw at Sullivan'.

The Police Gazette lined up the Mitchell fights, Slade fights, and the Kilrain bout. And really, outside of Jem Mace and Peter Jackson, who else was there that Sullivan hadn't fought?


Rufus,

HOW MANY TIMES can you put your foot in your mouth?

Jem Mace was born in 1831.

Jem Mace was 51 years old when John L Sullivan won the title in 1882.

Do you have a VERY CONFUSED time sense, Rufus?


Another winner from granberry.

Jem Mace fought until he was almost in his mid-70s and contested for "The Heavyweight Championship of England" in 1890 against Charley Mitchell. Even though it was more of a promotional ploy, he was still facing quite a challenge in Mitchell. Mace was also very active in the year you so dubiously pointed out, 1882.

Check out http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/mace-j.htm for more information on his career or just go pick up a book, you could seriously use a history lesson.

Get your facts straight or choose a new sport.

Sullivan, when he made his english tour, sought out to fight either Mace or Mitchell. He would eventually fight Mitchell some time after in Chantilly, France. And mind you, Mace fought on even after fighting Mitchell, having a 6 round draw against Mike Donovan, which was his last professional fight.

Mace and Jackson pretty much were the only guys he didn't face of any worth. But don't write off Mace because of his age, the man was still considered the 'best' in all of England up until he fought Mitchell. And that was after fighting for forty some odd years!

Cranberry, what did you think of Ali's victory over Foreman?

granberry wrote:

Mikee wrote:

granberry wrote:Mikee finally anwers.

Good for you Mikee.

Suggestion: Don't be so SELECTIVE next time.

I don't really concern myself with what people expect of me on here, but at least we can get back on topic (for what its worth anyway).

Suggestion: Don't get so STRESSED all the time.

Mikee,

I see you are an amateur psychiatrist.

And that is in addition to your appointing yourself as the very SELECTIVE Emily Post of this site.

But I haven't seen you "get back on topic" yet.

I am sure you will,

once you finish your critique of manners here and your pyschiatric analyses.

The only thing I really have to add to this topic is that if you start with a conviction, you will always find evidence for it. That is not a scientific approach, one where the evidence is looked at, and a conclusion formed from said evidence.

I can read perfectly well, as I am sure you can, so please don't feel you have to reiterate all your very worthy and laboured posts.

All I am saying is that if you wanted to prove Ali was under appreciated or over appreciated, there is available evidence for both, its a matter of interpretation, and a matter of approaching the subject with an unbiased mind and lack of agenda.

For what its worth, you have responded politely to me (which is all I really ask of anyone on here), so thankyou.

When did BoxRec become the Doctor Phil Show?

As Ali was the most over rated boxer in history I think James Toney is the most under rated
and before we go into any other arguments
Toneys record is no worse than Alis and as said previous apart froma few good fighters Ali fought a lot of stiffs
Toney W 69 (43 ko's) | L 6 | D 3
Ali W 56 (37 ko's) | L 5 | D 0

good lord!

I think James Toneys record stands up quite well against Alis

JAMES TONEY
WORLD TITLES
WBC Heavyweight Title
IBA Heavyweight Title
WBA Heavyweight Title
IBF Cruiserweight Title
Vacant IBA Super Cruiserweight Title
Vacant IBO Cruiserweight Title ~
Vacant WBU Cruiserweight Title ~
IBF Super Middleweight Title ~
IBF Middleweight Title ~
IBC Middleweight Title
WBU Light Heavyweight Title ~

OTHER TITLES
WBU Continental Cruiserweight Title
USBA Light Heavyweight Title ~
Vacant WBC Continental Americas Heavyweight Title



ALI
WORLD TITLES
WBA Heavyweight Title
WBC Heavyweight Title
World Heavyweight Title This was when there was only one world title and the champions of the day made sure they dodged real fighters so real champs never got to fight for the title

OTHER TITLES
NABF Heavyweight Tit

BERNARD BRIGGS. wrote:I think James Toneys record stands up quite well against Alis

JAMES TONEY
WORLD TITLES
WBC Heavyweight Title
IBA Heavyweight Title
WBA Heavyweight Title
IBF Cruiserweight Title
Vacant IBA Super Cruiserweight Title
Vacant IBO Cruiserweight Title ~
Vacant WBU Cruiserweight Title ~
IBF Super Middleweight Title ~
IBF Middleweight Title ~
IBC Middleweight Title
WBU Light Heavyweight Title ~

OTHER TITLES
WBU Continental Cruiserweight Title
USBA Light Heavyweight Title ~
Vacant WBC Continental Americas Heavyweight Title



ALI
WORLD TITLES
WBA Heavyweight Title
WBC Heavyweight Title
World Heavyweight Title This was when there was only one world title and the champions of the day made sure they dodged real fighters so real champs never got to fight for the title

OTHER TITLES
NABF Heavyweight Tit

This is bullshit and i think you know it, first off you can't count titles for Toney that wasn't around when Ali fought and Toney was never the WBC champion the Rahman fight was a draw look it up.

Just a question what fighter did Ali dodge from what i have heard he fought almost everyone avalible.

BERNARD BRIGGS. wrote:I think James Toneys record stands up quite well against Alis

JAMES TONEY
WORLD TITLES
WBC Heavyweight Title
IBA Heavyweight Title
WBA Heavyweight Title
IBF Cruiserweight Title
Vacant IBA Super Cruiserweight Title
Vacant IBO Cruiserweight Title ~
Vacant WBU Cruiserweight Title ~
IBF Super Middleweight Title ~
IBF Middleweight Title ~
IBC Middleweight Title
WBU Light Heavyweight Title ~

OTHER TITLES
WBU Continental Cruiserweight Title
USBA Light Heavyweight Title ~
Vacant WBC Continental Americas Heavyweight Title



ALI
WORLD TITLES
WBA Heavyweight Title
WBC Heavyweight Title
World Heavyweight Title This was when there was only one world title and the champions of the day made sure they dodged real fighters so real champs never got to fight for the title
OTHER TITLES
NABF Heavyweight Tit

that above comment is utterly subjective. if a comment of similar fashion was made rejecting your argument you would jump all over it. So here is one back for you. The IBA, WBU, IBO and all the 'Minor' titles of James Toney do not add up to one event of Ali's winning the World Title once. Seeing as he managed to do it 3 times (drug-free too), I think the case for Ali being more accomplished in his career is quite simple to make. JT has done a lot, and eat a lot, but compared to Ali? The legacy of Ali is this - even a short squat mofo like JT wants to be Heavyweight champ of the world - just like Ali.

asdf

BERNARD BRIGGS. wrote:As Ali was the most over rated boxer in history I think James Toney is the most under rated
and before we go into any other arguments
Toneys record is no worse than Alis and as said previous apart froma few good fighters Ali fought a lot of stiffs
Toney W 69 (43 ko's) | L 6 | D 3
Ali W 56 (37 ko's) | L 5 | D 0

Are you suggesting pfp Toney is the bigger draw than Toney?

DaveV17 wrote:At heavyweight, there is no doubt that Ali accomplished more than James Toney. Heavyweight was almost a "retirement job" for Toney as he was far past his best weight.

But Toney did relatively well at heavyweight, giving up height and reach to everyone he fought. Even though he was well into his 30s, small, and in not the best of condition, his skills allowed him to be competitive. Ali, on the other hand was a huge heavyweight in his time, faster and more athletic than most of his competition. Ali had physical advantages that allowed him to overcome some shortcomings in his fundamentals. Toney, had great fundamentals that allowed him to overcome physical disadvantages.

Toney had great skills, Ali had great physical advantages in the 60s and most of the time in the 70s.

Near-prime Toney gave away no phsyical advantages whatsoever when he got spanked and humiliated by Roy Jones. Anything comparable on Ali's record?

BERNARD BRIGGS. wrote:I think James Toneys record stands up quite well against Alis

JAMES TONEY
WORLD TITLES
WBC Heavyweight Title
IBA Heavyweight Title
WBA Heavyweight Title
IBF Cruiserweight Title
Vacant IBA Super Cruiserweight Title
Vacant IBO Cruiserweight Title ~
Vacant WBU Cruiserweight Title ~
IBF Super Middleweight Title ~
IBF Middleweight Title ~
IBC Middleweight Title
WBU Light Heavyweight Title ~

OTHER TITLES
WBU Continental Cruiserweight Title
USBA Light Heavyweight Title ~
Vacant WBC Continental Americas Heavyweight Title



ALI
WORLD TITLES
WBA Heavyweight Title
WBC Heavyweight Title
World Heavyweight Title This was when there was only one world title and the champions of the day made sure they dodged real fighters so real champs never got to fight for the title

OTHER TITLES
NABF Heavyweight Tit

Ali gave everyone a shot. All the deserving ones and, in between them, all the 2nd raters too.

Which ones did he duck? Even Crankbery would be hard-pressed to name any, that's why he is reduced to claiming all Ali's wins were 'fixed'.

As dear old Stacy Goodson would say, you, sir, are merely a 'hatter'.

asdf

DaveV17 wrote:Pundit wrote:
Near-prime Toney gave away no phsyical advantages whatsoever when he got spanked and humiliated by Roy Jones. Anything comparable on Ali's record?

Nope Ali fought nothing comparable to the prime Roy Jones Jr. RJJ was about peerless at his best. I agree with you, no heavyweight Ali ever fought was like the middleweight RJJ.

The comparison was between Ali and Toney, not between Ali and RJJ.

granberry wrote:Pretty soon the establishment "experts" will be claiming Cooper never knocked Ali down.

while the anti establishers will swear he got an hour to rest after the knockdown.

BoxBuzz wrote:

granberry wrote:Pretty soon the establishment "experts" will be claiming Cooper never knocked Ali down.

while the anti establishers will swear he got an hour to rest after the knockdown.

Crankberry told me via PM that what really happened was that the Ali industry had replaced Henry Cooper just before the fight with his twin brother Jim.

It all makes sense now.

Collins2000 wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:

granberry wrote:Pretty soon the establishment "experts" will be claiming Cooper never knocked Ali down.

while the anti establishers will swear he got an hour to rest after the knockdown.

Crankberry told me via PM that what really happened was that the Ali industry had replaced Henry Cooper just before the fight with his twin brother Jim.

It all makes sense now.

Mentally ill Collins states falsely that I PM'd him.

That is a false statement.

I wouldn't walk across the street to p*ss on Collins.

granberry wrote:

Collins2000 wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote: while the anti establishers will swear he got an hour to rest after the knockdown.

Crankberry told me via PM that what really happened was that the Ali industry had replaced Henry Cooper just before the fight with his twin brother Jim.

It all makes sense now.

Mentally ill Collins states falsely that I PM'd him.

That is a false statement.

I wouldn't walk across the street to p*ss on Collins.

Pervert Crankberry constantly PMs me telling me what he'd like to get up to with Boxbuzz if he wasn't confined to a wheelchair.

BERNARD BRIGGS. wrote:Ali in my opinion was vastly over rated and would have trouble winning a WBO title today. Reasons being
too small
no defence
fought too many stiffs
rudimentry skills where lacking

I disagree to the death with anyone who says Ali was overrated.

Shannon Briggs would beat Ali? On what universe?

6'3" with an 80" reach is not small in any period of Heavyweight history. In terms of weight, well, Holyfield and Holmes weighed about as much as Ali at their best and fought guys 6'5" in the 250's... Ali was stronger and took a punch better than either of them. And Ali did fight a few big guys.

No defense: he wasn't the most technically skilled defensive fighter, but that doesn't mean he was easy to hit, specifically in his prime.

Fought too many stiffs? Ali fought the best opposition in Heavyweight history. He fought 7 Hall of Famers, and contenders the likes of Quarry and Bonavena and Lyle and Shavers. Who did better than that? If you're referring to the occasional Blin or Lubbers or Wepner then you're way, way off; those were tune up fights. Check out any great fighter you want; Robinson, Moore, Duran, Chavez... everyone fights tune ups. Ali normally fought 4-5 times a year, normally against 3 serious opponents and one tune up/stay busy fight. The last thing you can use against Ali is his selection of opponents.

Comparing Heavyweight Toney to Ali is like comparing Middleweight De La Hoya to Hagler.

Collins2000 wrote:

granberry wrote:

Collins2000 wrote: Crankberry told me via PM that what really happened was that the Ali industry had replaced Henry Cooper just before the fight with his twin brother Jim.

It all makes sense now.

Mentally ill Collins states falsely that I PM'd him.

That is a false statement.

I wouldn't walk across the street to p*ss on Collins.

Pervert Crankberry constantly PMs me telling me what he'd like to get up to with Boxbuzz if he wasn't confined to a wheelchair.

This piece of sh*t Collins is mentally ill.

The internet is a haven for such sickos.