Why did Hagler fight Leonard the way he did?

[BoxBuzz]

These Leonard bashers are just retarded........

You know these left wingers, it's all about emotion.


(for context for those of you who just tuned in this year....ringsider is one of those who villify the lefties in general and believe that the use of the southpaw stance is an abomination and disrespectful to the game of boxing.)

[kikibalt]

These Leonard bashers are just retarded........

You know these left wingers, it's all about emotion.


(for context for those of you who just tuned in this year....ringsider is one of those who villify the lefties in general and believe that the use of the southpaw stance is an abomination and disrespectful to the game of boxing.)

Thats why he is on my ignore list.

[ringsider]

These Leonard bashers are just retarded........

You know these left wingers, it's all about emotion.


(for context for those of you who just tuned in this year....ringsider is one of those who villify the lefties in general and believe that the use of the southpaw stance is an abomination and disrespectful to the game of boxing.)

Thats why he is on my ignore list.

Typical....take the easy way out.

[Ezzard]

[

Your interpretation is that he wasn't tired, mine is that he was absolutely exhausted. He was working a lot harder than Hagler, his game plan demanded it. he's very, very tired IMO. Who wins the rounds has nothing to do with the state the fighters are in.

As for the scoring of the last 3 rounds... I don't get it at all... It's irrelevant to my point. I'm saying I think he won the fight. I'm also saying that Hagler needed a KD or a KO to win on my scorecard. At that point only one man was going to get dropped and only one man was going to get KO'd. It didn't happen due to Leonard's skill and endurance and determination.

I'm talking Leonard up and you don't have the critical distance to see it because the red mist comes down the moment anyone criticises him.

Taking the Hagler fight into consideration has no bearing on the timeline I described. IMO the fraudulent behaviour started after the Hagler fight.

[Ezzard]

...The only fighters I can recall ever actively disliking were Ali (whom I've come to respect now because of his heroic battle with Parkinson's), and Ron Lyle.

Why the dislike for Lyle?

You know, John, I probably shouldn't have written that. I shouldn't speak ill of people, since its is just my opinion. I worked Lyle's corner with his trainer, Bobby Lewis, when Lyle fought Lou Bailey in Oklahoma City back in 1973, and, suffice it to say that it was not an enjoyable experience for me. It was probably more Lewis than Lyle. Maybe working with me wasn't enjoyable for Lewis either. So there you go.

Interestingly, you didn't ask, "Why did you dislike Ali?" Hmmm . . . I wonder why nobody asks why anyone would dislike Ali . . .

Ray, you may have to help me out on this one... Why did you dislike Ali?

[raylawpc]

Ez, I don't think they give me enough message space to type all the reasons I disliked Ali when he was fighting.

Plus, I probably shouldn't speak ill of anyone, since its just an opinion. These days, I admire his grace and fortitude in dealing with Parkinson's, with which my father is also afflicted.

But I liked him better than Lyle. I was pulling for Ali when they fought.

[Ezzard]

Ez, I don't think they give me enough message space to type all the reasons I disliked Ali when he was fighting.

Plus, I probably shouldn't speak ill of anyone, since its just an opinion. These days, I admire his grace and fortitude in dealing with Parkinson's, with which my father is also afflicted.

But I liked him better than Lyle. I was pulling for Ali when they fought.

Ray, I feel like there's a joke or some knowledge everyone else is in on and I don't know. I admire you for not wanting to speak ill of anyone but its pretty hard for me not to pester you now you have my curiosity.

[Ambling Alp]

[

Your interpretation is that he wasn't tired, mine is that he was absolutely exhausted. He was working a lot harder than Hagler, his game plan demanded it. he's very, very tired IMO. Who wins the rounds has nothing to do with the state the fighters are in.

As for the scoring of the last 3 rounds... I don't get it at all... It's irrelevant to my point. I'm saying I think he won the fight. I'm also saying that Hagler needed a KD or a KO to win on my scorecard. At that point only one man was going to get dropped and only one man was going to get KO'd. It didn't happen due to Leonard's skill and endurance and determination.

I'm talking Leonard up and you don't have the critical distance to see it because the red mist comes down the moment anyone criticises him.

Taking the Hagler fight into consideration has no bearing on the timeline I described. IMO the fraudulent behaviour started after the Hagler fight.

well, it seemed like you were saying that Leonard was just hanging on for dear life in the last 3 rounds and I was sayiong that he wasn't.
I don't see how you were talking up Leonard. You called him a fraud. Now you are saying that only only his post Hagler career was fraudulent. Well, as mentioned I don't think that was either.
I honestly don't think Leonard planned on fighting anymore after Hagler. If he had, he certainly would have fought sooner than 19 months after fighting Hagler to fight again.
He was out of action for 19 months and then fought Lalonde. Not the most difficult opponent but certainly he could have found someone easier. He then fought Hearns and Duran, the fights that everyone wanted to see. How in the world is that being a fraud?

If just by not fighting Hagler again makes him a fraud, then just about any fighter who ever fought is a fraud. Name a fighter and I will tell you what fight they could have had that they didn't.
If Leonard is a fraud, what do you call Duran?
-Is Duran a fraud for not giving Buchanan a rematch?
-Is Duran a fraud for not giving Davey Moore a rematch?
-Is Duran a fraud for not giving Iran Barkley a rematch?
-Is Duran a fraud for quitting in the 2nd Leonard fight, cheating the fans out of their money's worth?
-Is Duran a fraud for moving out of the welterweight division for good, (and away from Leonard) right after losing to Leonard?
-Is Duran a fraud when after he for inflating his record with easy wins against many fighters that hardly anyone has ever heard of?

[Syntax Error]

It amazes me that anybody who watched Ray Leonard can claim he was inept.

I doubt there is a welterweight in history who could have beaten Duran (1980), Benitez or Hearns easily, without being made to look ordinary at times.

As for the Hagler fight; he boxed to orders: what was he supposed to do, after witnessing Hagler's previous 2 fights, where Marvin pulverised 2 opponents who both stupidly tried to KO the Iron Jawed bald one!

[ringsider]

It amazes me that anybody who watched Ray Leonard can claim he was inept.

I doubt there is a welterweight in history who could have beaten Duran (1980), Benitez or Hearns easily, without being made to look ordinary at times.

As for the Hagler fight; he boxed to orders: what was he supposed to do, after witnessing Hagler's previous 2 fights, where Marvin pulverised 2 opponents who both stupidly tried to KO the Iron Jawed bald one!

Exactly......

[BoxBuzz]

I've always thought that Ray deserved the win (but just barely). Never the less I have never ever understood what fight Jose Juan Guerra was watching. Ringsider, your a fella with a really really bias opinion. Did you think Ray won by that big of a margin?

Just curious.

[Broncano]

-Is Duran a fraud for not giving Buchanan a rematch?
-Is Duran a fraud for not giving Davey Moore a rematch?
-Is Duran a fraud for not giving Iran Barkley a rematch?

No use of giving rematches to fighters you beat so convincingly. Particularly Davey Moore.
Giving Moore a rematch would qualify as voluntary manslaughter. Or Assisted suicide if Moore agreed to it.

P.S: Not that I disagree with your assessment of Leonard.

[BoxBuzz]

-Is Duran a fraud for not giving Buchanan a rematch?
-Is Duran a fraud for not giving Davey Moore a rematch?
-Is Duran a fraud for not giving Iran Barkley a rematch?

No use of giving rematches to fighters you beat so convincingly. Particularly Davey Moore.
Giving Moore a rematch would qualify as voluntary manslaughter. Or Assisted suicide if Moore agreed to it.

P.S: Not that I disagree with your assessment of Leonard.

If he fought any of those names twice people would say that he came back for seconds to pad his record. Barkley being the exception only in as far as it would be worth watching. I.M.H.O.

[Seamus]

Why would a Duran v Barkley rematch be worth watching ? Duran's next fight was with SRL and the consensus here at BoxRec is that that was a meaningless fight.

[Goodnight, Irene]

How'd the headbutt turn out, Alp?

[ringsider]

I've always thought that Ray deserved the win (but just barely). Never the less I have never ever understood what fight Jose Juan Guerra was watching. Ringsider, your a fella with a really really bias opinion. Did you think Ray won by that big of a margin?

Just curious.

No I didn't think SRL won by that big of a margin. But He won the first 4 rounds as Hagler screwed up and tried to box him. So it was 0-Hagler, 4-Leonard going into the 5 round. The remaining 8 rounds was was at least an even split or 5-3 Hagler ........problem is he spent all his time plodding after Ray instead of taking a step to either side depending on which way Leonard went and CUTTING THE RING OFF. He looked horrible doing that. I thought Hagler was out boxed........

[Robinson]

I just watched Johnson vs Moran and well if Leonard was a bad offender for over clinching then what would people here have to say about the great Johnson.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Apparently, Alp was butted unconscious. I can't imagine why, the cut was surely no worse than, "a cut on the knee."

[raylawpc]

-Is Duran a fraud for not giving Buchanan a rematch?
-Is Duran a fraud for not giving Davey Moore a rematch?
-Is Duran a fraud for not giving Iran Barkley a rematch?

No use of giving rematches to fighters you beat so convincingly. Particularly Davey Moore.
Giving Moore a rematch would qualify as voluntary manslaughter. Or Assisted suicide if Moore agreed to it.

P.S: Not that I disagree with your assessment of Leonard.

If he fought any of those names twice people would say that he came back for seconds to pad his record. Barkley being the exception only in as far as it would be worth watching. I.M.H.O.

I respectfully disagree. I'm not saying he would have won, but I think Buchanan would have done much better in a second fight.

More important, he deserved a rematch. He was a top-3 contender from the time he lost to Duran until early 1975 when he lost to Suzuki in Tokyo. From the loss to Duran to the loss to Suzuki, he went 13-0 and established himself as the best lightweight in Europe by regaining the British and Europe titles.

[Ambling Alp]

Apparently, Alp was butted unconscious. I can't imagine why, the cut was surely no worse than, "a cut on the knee."

As I have said before, if the cut doesn't impair his vision, what does it matter?

[Ambling Alp]

-Is Duran a fraud for not giving Buchanan a rematch?
-Is Duran a fraud for not giving Davey Moore a rematch?
-Is Duran a fraud for not giving Iran Barkley a rematch?

No use of giving rematches to fighters you beat so convincingly. Particularly Davey Moore.
Giving Moore a rematch would qualify as voluntary manslaughter. Or Assisted suicide if Moore agreed to it.

P.S: Not that I disagree with your assessment of Leonard.

If he fought any of those names twice people would say that he came back for seconds to pad his record. Barkley being the exception only in as far as it would be worth watching. I.M.H.O.

My point was that these are things (as well as other things that I mentioned that were worse) that Duran seldom gets criticized for.

However Leonard is often criticized for "not giving rematches right away" or not fighting this guy or that guy. This is despite the fact that Leonard fought more fights against big name opponents than any other fighter of his era (including Duran) despite missing almost 5 years.

Duran seldom gets criticized for padding his record against many fighters that almost no one ever heard of. It's doubtful he would have got much criticism for giving these guys rematches.

[ListonLeft]

blah blah blah duran has a padded record

hey you ever check it out? most of his early fights were in Panama....a dirt poor boxer trying to make enough money to live..maybe he didnt have the money to fight in the US

[elmersalsa]

To say that Duran fought guys that NOBODY KNOWS, OF WAS HIS RECORD PADDED with guys that nobody knows shows the IGNORANCY of some "boxing experts" of this forum.

Ampling Alp is talking like if Leonard fought most of his time with GREAT FIGHTERS and Duran was fighting TOMATO CANS in his heyday.

[Ambling Alp]

Obviously Duran fought many good fighters in his long career. My point is that he fought several "tomato cans" while he was in his "heyday". He seldom gets any flack for it.
If Leonard would have done the same thing, he would be ripped on this Forum on almost a daily basis for it.
As it is, Leonard gets ripped for who he fought (or didn't fight), even though he had more fights against big names than any one else in his era.
Btw, Leonard never fought one tomato can during his prime. In fact, he only fought two opponents with a losing record in his whole career. (Both were very early in Leonard's career.)

For example, from 1972-1978, Duran fought these opponents:
Juan Medina (KO7) 1-1
Jose Vasquez (KO 1) 1-1
Adalberto Vanegas (KO1)2-0-1
Andres Salgado (KO1) 0-2
Pedro Mendoza (KO1) 0-0
Aliro Acuna (KO3) 0-3
Bernard Diaz (KO1) 1-4
Esequil Obando KO2 (0-3)

Of course it's possible that these records are incomplete and these guys are a little better than these records indicate. However, they certainly weren't ranked contenders or anything close to that. It' sure is quite a coincidence that Duran would seldom score an early KO against better known fighters but he almost always did against the no names.

I really don't hold it against a fighter for easy wins against tomato cans. However, why is ok to rip Leonard fighting saying Larry Bonds or Donny Lalonde but somehow it's ok for Duran to fight these type of opponents?

All of this is part of my larger point about Leonard. Leonard has been called a fraud for his post Hagler career. Somehow fighting Lalonde,Hearns,Duran, and Norris makes you a fraud. If Leonard is a fraud for that, what is Duran for fighting so many tomato cans and for all of the other things he did in his career(Quitting in fights, not fighting Buchanan or Barkley again etc.)

Why is it ok for Leonard be criticized for anything but Duran always gets a free pass?

[Robinson]

Alp

Its because Duran has hands of stone.