BoxRec

cpss68 wrote:hamed yes , mcguigan got in so why not

End of thread

Whatever happened to Baz Deskins?

barry wrote:I agree completely about Hamed's mentality and pretty much all of that statement. Hamed never had the mental capacity it seemed to really deal with serious adversity!

possible. I actually think that with naz being the marquee name in the lower weights, he'd earned more than enough money to walk away. IMO he'd gotten fat, gotten comfortable, his ego ballooned, he got careless - and had a lesson from barrera. i think he lost, and walked away, because he literally could afford to.

whereas look at someone like israel vazquez. he's done remarkable work in the past few years, and shown amazing determination to come back from hard losses, hard wins that put him in hospital. but economics dictate that the only way vazquez makes decent money, is in WW3.

while i could never see vazquez beating naz (if we had a time machine), naz never demonstrated that massive heart and massive committment. props to someone like manny pacquiao, though, for displaying focus to beat some great fighters and to win some BIG money fights.

Ambling Alp wrote:I really don't care how he supposedly looked for 2 years. Even if he looked great for two years, that isn't enough to make him a Hall of Famer.

Why in the world would he be complacent at the age of 23? He hadn't done enough yet. Even if he was compacent, that's his problem.

To be considered a great fighter, you have to prove it. He never proved it.

Naz was arguably a world class fighter the moment he dominated former world title challengers Vincenzo Belcrastro and Freddie Cruz around 1994. he brought amazing talent to the lower weights, and it is a damn shame he let himself go after winning the WBO belt from Steve Robinson, a strong, solid fighter.

Let's not forget, despite his increasing carelessness and casual attitude, he beat all the other champs at his weight - by KO - though some belts became vacant. Tom Johnson, Cesar Soto, Wilfredo Vazquez, Paul Ingle. (Vazquez is a potential Hall of Famer, by the way; Soto had knocked out future lightweight champ JL Castillo). And Kelley, Medina, Hardy (who'd pushed HOFer Canizales all the way): good scalps. Bungu was a fine belt holder at 122 - also KO'd.

Despte the horirble style and the cock up v Barrera, Naz has a big body of work & deserves HOF consideration not only for the fights he had, but for bringing fame and fortune to the lower weights.

I think he deserves a spot in the hall although I wouldn't demand it like I would for Danny Lopez but he should be there. I remember NYC when he signed with HBO they had billboards of him everywhere I would see them when I was taking the bus or driving back home to Jersey from work next to the Lincoln tunnel, By the big TV in times square, huge banners draping down from the top of the Garden to the floor and remember saying to people he may be the arrogant 'badguy' that everyone wants to see get whupped but he sure is GREAT for boxing. That Kevin Kelley fight at the garden was one of the best live fights I have been to just on sheer atmosphere alone.

His opponents really weren't all over the hill with exception to Vasquez and Johnson. Maybe ringworn but how would you explain their performances post Naseem. Many of these guys were pulling off great victories over top notch competition. Medina was only 25 and Kelley had just turned 30 when they fought. You have Young Champions like McCollough and Ingle defeated by Naseem.

Opponents

Ingle 26, Future Champion (undefeated at the time the only notable person on his ledger before the nas fight was McMillian but after the fight he went to beat Medina and Junior Jones)

Sanchez 23, (defeated Mayweather in the amateurs, stopped Espinoza in the match right after the nas fight and Paez 34 at the time)

Medina 25, 2x ex-Champion (The Johnson Trilogy 1-2, Scott Harrison 1-1, Alejandro Gonzalez, *Tapia*)

Badillo 27, (close fights with Johnson and Jauregui)

Cesar Soto 28, Champion (coming off a win over Espinoza and also had a knockouts over Agapito Sanchez and Sean Fletcher and wins over Carlos Rios and a few undefeated prospects)

McCollough 28, ex-Champion (silver medalist 92 olympics, beat Johnny Bredhal who came very close to upsetting Ayala a few years later)

Kelley 30, 2x Champion (proven fighter 5-0-1 against some tough comp leading up to the Nas fight including the KO over Gainer, He did have the WBU belt when he fought nas after that gainer fight he deserves to have champion)

Johnson 33, Champion 6 yr. undefeated reign with 11 title defenses (beat prospects croft, badillo and belano the year before the nas match)

Bungu 33, Champion (coming off an upset win over Danny Romero and had two wins over McKinney)

Vasquez 37, Champion (I'll just touch on opponents he had a few years before the nas fight showing he was still a threat at the age of 37 taking out Cassani as well winning bouts with Eloy Rojas and Canizales who was 29 when they fought)

Prospects Alicea, Molina, Padilla
Other: Cabrera (stopped Luiz Fretias Acelino's brother whose only other loss was to Barrera)

One thing I never liked about Naz, the prime Naz, the sloppy late Naz. he never seemed to hold the middle of the ring, always had to fight at a casual, convenient pace. a big punch, then walk off. that is a problem at world level; you can't just walk in and walk out of range at your own leisure. IMO great fighters can control the ring, can hold the centre, can command, can impose themselves.

Autobarn wrote: IMO great fighters can control the ring, can hold the centre, can command, can impose themselves.

good point

Someone should simply have answered, 'No' right off the bat, & this thread wouldn't be eight pages long.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Someone should simply have answered, 'No' right off the bat, & this thread wouldn't be eight pages long.

Well what about the guys say yes.

Not everyone is accustomed to your "Logic"

Take it easy, mate. I was just being playfully facile.

Gotta be a, 'No,' though, right?

Bladder wrote:Whatever happened to Baz Deskins?

I think someone said AIDS.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Take it easy, mate. I was just being playfully facile.

Gotta be a, 'No,' though, right?

No

Fugg nooo!
Gifted fighter, but shabby resume...kind of one hit wonderISH to me...his ENTIRE career went down the toilet off one fight ...the Barrera fight... 8)

I think he just about deserves a place in the HOF. He is not a dead cert, but I would be surprised if he never made it.

I don't have aids. I have liver problems, currently along with a heart issue, but not aids.

IMO he's better than McGuigan but not as good as Winstone, Legra, Famechon, all of whom have thus far been overlooked and not even on the ballot. It helped Hamed's cause that he was recent and such a big personality, whereas those fighters fought 50 years ago.

chrisjs1985 wrote: ↑24 Sep 2019, 13:18 IMO he's better than McGuigan but not as good as Winstone, Legra, Famechon, all of whom have thus far been overlooked and not even on the ballot. It helped Hamed's cause that he was recent and such a big personality, whereas those fighters fought 50 years ago.

Experts like Rafael have never heard of those guys. I remember reading him say tszyu and wlad are definitive top 5 fighters in their respective divisions.

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑24 Sep 2019, 13:22

chrisjs1985 wrote: ↑24 Sep 2019, 13:18 IMO he's better than McGuigan but not as good as Winstone, Legra, Famechon, all of whom have thus far been overlooked and not even on the ballot. It helped Hamed's cause that he was recent and such a big personality, whereas those fighters fought 50 years ago.

Experts like Rafael have never heard of those guys. I remember reading him say tszyu and wlad are definitive top 5 fighters in their respective divisions.

Yeah, it's sad that there's people like that voting. I'd venture to say that's a large % of the voters. I remember seeing him say Ward would be a top 50 all-time guy. He probably thinks Freitas is the greatest Brazilian.

Tszyu, I can live with in the top 5 at 140. Wlad I can't live with in the top 12.

Benitez, Pryor, Chavez, loi, Perkins, locche, cervantes. Wlad is top 30, I can live with top 20. Fat Dan insists Frazier couldn't last 2 rounds with him.

I know eh..I've had that discussion with fat Dan about Frazier/ Wlad in the past...he always sticks up and overates Wlad cuz they are buddies.

Dan doesn't know much about anything pre-90's but his news is very reliable and his usa today rankings were awesome before the internet, lol. You youngsters don't know how good you have it. The fighters and fights were way better then but you would find out a fight like hagler/hearns was cancelled when you put on the channel to watch it. It took me several days to find out who won Sanchez/Gomez, etc..