Classic American West Coast Boxing

kikibalt
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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At Manzanar, fishing was the only escape

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Al Seib / Los Angeles Times
Sets Tomita, 77, fishes for trout in Shepherd Creek near the Manzanar War Relocation Center. Tomita, along with other former internees, went fishing after visiting the site where they had sneaked past guard towers to fish for rainbow trout decades ago.
Interned Japanese Americans would do whatever it took to get away from the camp and take a shot at trout in Sierra Nevada lakes and streams.

By Pete Thomas
April 23, 2009

Reporting from Lone Pine, Calif. -- Sets Tomita pauses at Manzanar's southwest boundary and scans the high desert, wistfully.

It's his first visit to this precise location since the World War II-era detention facility for Japanese Americans closed in 1945.

The guard tower is gone, but Tomita walks over its cement foundation, stirring up dust. How his family hated dust, and the afternoon winds that drove clouds of it through a camp that broiled in summer and froze in winter.

But Tomita, 77, harbors fond memories of this place too.

His gaze is to the southwest. Out there, in the shadow of the Sierra Nevada's eastern slope, tree-lined George Creek snakes across the desert like a verdant oasis.


It beckons today as it did then, but today Tomita can go freely. Sixty-seven years ago, with armed guards on high alert, the journey required darkness for cover, a stealthy crawl beneath barbed wire and a fugitive-like escape across boulder- and shrub-mined terrain.

Once at George Creek, as morning sunlight flooded the Owens Valley, the Tomita kids would spend long days beneath tree cover, fishing for rainbow trout with poles made of willow branches and hooks fashioned from paper clips.

"It kind of reminded me of Huck Finn," recalls Tomita, who was 10 and his oldest brother 14 when they first went AWOL. "It was exciting. As a young kid you don't think about the consequences. My brother was going to take care of us, so we just followed him out."

As the Manzanar National Historic Site prepares for Saturday's 40th pilgrimage, an annual commemoration of what was endured during the war; and as the region welcomes thousands for the weekend's opening of trout-fishing season, the detention facility is being fondly remembered by some as a secret fishing lodge.

In part because some of the 11,000 internees typically sneaked out alone or in small groups and kept their exploits secret, it's impossible to know just how many escaped to ply local creeks or high-mountain lakes. But Cory Shiozaki of Gardena, who has been working since 2004 on a documentary film titled "From Barbed Wire to Barbed Hooks, Fishing Stories From Manzanar," estimates as many as 400 would occasionally slip out of camp, mostly for a day or two but sometimes for a week or longer.

Trout fishing symbolized freedom and adventure.

"We fried it and it sure tasted good," recalls Archie Miyatake, 84, who was 16 when he and his family were relocated from Los Angeles' Little Tokyo district to the 6,000-acre camp. "Especially since it was fish we weren't supposed to catch."

Shiozaki began his project after he read a Los Angeles Times story about an internee then known only as Ishikawa. In a portrait captured by Miyatake's father, Toyo, a weather-worn Ishikawa displays a stringer of six golden trout. They were specimens from high-altitude lakes, possibly on the Sierra's western divide.

Shiozaki later determined that Ishikawa's first name was Heihachi. He was 53 when he arrived in 1942, and he remains the most ambitious known angler in Manzanar's mostly dark history.

"Security was high during the first 18 months so they would time their escape as the search lights were panning left to right, just like in 'Hogan's Heroes,' " Shiozaki says, prompting laughter from Tomita, Miyatake and Jiro Matsuyama, gathered for an afternoon tour of their escape routes and nearby fishing spots.

Though it was reasonably simple to escape, there were consequences.

One internee, trying to sneak out during daylight, was thwarted by gunshots aimed at his feet.

Another was captured making his way back to camp. MPs confiscated his equipment and fish, and marched him into camp at bayonet-point.

A 15-year-old was jailed for a week for sneaking off to fish.

Only one internee is known to have died while on a fishing expedition. An elderly artist-angler named Giichi Matsumura accompanied others into the majestic wilderness beyond Mt. Williamson, but lagged behind to paint.

An unexpected snowstorm blanketed the region. The fishermen hunkered for hours in a cave and could not find Matsumura after the storm passed. His remains were discovered weeks later by hikers.

Tomita says he harbors no bitter feelings about his family's three-year detention. In fact, he says, pangs of guilt coursed through the Japanese American community after Japan attacked Pearl Harbor on Dec. 7, 1941.

Beginning in 1942, the U.S. government ordered 110,000 Japanese Americans and resident Japanese aliens to be placed in 10 military-style camps in western states.

Tomita was bused to Manzanar, which is eight miles north of Lone Pine along U.S. 395, with his parents, two older brothers, two younger brothers and a sister.


If he experienced guilt, it did not interfere with repeated escapes. The Tomitas left after dusk via the southwest corner because a small creek bed offered banks from which to maintain a low profile.

Miyatake chose the western fence near the cemetery and fished mostly to the north in Shepherd Creek, with a cousin's husband.

"One time he caught so much fish that all the bags were filled up, so he stuck them in his pockets," Miyatake says.

Matsuyama was older and more fortunate. He was manager of the camp's off-site reservoir, so he had a car and freedom to come and go.

"I always carried a fishing pole under the seat of the car," he says. "And whenever I saw a fish I'd run to the car, grab my pole, and run into the bushes."

Matsuyama, 88, was approached often by internees offering payment to sneak them out. He refused, but later disguised them as reservoir project helpers and delivered them five rugged miles -- a full day's hike -- to routes leading to high wilderness.

"The MPs didn't know what was going on," Matsuyama says, waving a hand as if shooing a fly.

Camp life was demoralizing, though. Living quarters were cramped. Communal bathrooms afforded no privacy.

Internees had a volunteer police and fire department, a school and baseball diamond. Parents planted gardens and some had jobs farming or making camouflage netting or extracting rubber from guayule plants.

But barracks-style living broke down the family structure and internees entertained no notions of actual escape. "We're Japanese; you can spot us a mile away," says Tomita, who lives in Northridge.

There was only one place, west of U.S. 395 and opposite civilization, where, Miyatake remembers, "The air just tasted better."

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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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Beyond the barbed wire, a string of skinny goldens

Image

By Darrell Kunitomi, Special to The Times
April 20, 2004

The angler in this photograph has no smile and no first name known to us. He's remembered only as Ishikawa, Fisherman — a sweet and haunting mystery from a dark chapter in U.S. history.

Toyo Miyatake made this portrait during World War II at the Manzanar War Relocation Center. It is on display at the Eastern California Museum in Independence, Calif., with other images that Miyatake made inside the camp.

No one knows exactly how Ishikawa slipped away to go fishing. He holds the only evidence of his travels, freedom in a string of trout. His portrait embodies the vibe of Cole Porter's 1944 song "Don't Fence Me In."

Oh give me land, lots of land, under starry skies above

Don't fence me in

Ishikawa had the face of those who "suddenly and deliberately" attacked Pearl Harbor on Dec. 7, 1941. Within three months, Franklin D. Roosevelt signed Executive Order 9066 authorizing the internment of Japanese Americans. Two-thirds were American citizens. Manzanar, 220 miles north of Los Angeles, was the first of 10 camps constructed of wood and tar paper. FDR called them concentration camps.

Manzanar would house 10,000 people and become the biggest city between Los Angeles and Reno for the duration of the war. Ninety percent of its residents came from the Los Angeles area. There were some newlyweds too, Jack and Masa Kunitomi, my parents.

The curtain of time obscures Ishikawa's full identity. Archie Miyatake, the photographer's son, recalls Ishikawa. "He lived in our block, but I never knew his first name. He fished a lot. He was gone for two weeks at a time."

The War Relocation Authority recorded 156 Ishikawas throughout the 10 camps; seven men his age, with that name, were at Manzanar. The man in Archie's block had a birth date of 1899, making him around 55 at mid-war. His first name was Heihachi, but we can't be sure he's the fisherman.

Send me off forever, but I ask you please,

Don't fence me in

Ishikawa found himself between a rock (Mt. Whitney, highest point in the Lower 48) and a hard place (Badwater in Death Valley, the lowest). He must have looked at the six-strand barbed-wire fence and dreamed and schemed, finally obsessing. And he left.

"He must have gone at night," says the younger Miyatake. "That's what we did. But we only went up the stream, Shepherd Creek. We didn't go where he went." Native American guide Richard Stewart says, "No one knows exactly where he went."

Perhaps a guard dozed when Ishikawa snaked past the machine guns and rifles in the towers, climbed the alluvial fans through scrub brush, then followed an ancient Paiute trail in Shepherd Canyon that eased the nearly vertical pitch of the Sierran escarpment.

The fine brace he displays are the state fish, the riotously hued golden trout that exist at high elevations. Ishikawa may have fished the lakes at 11,000 feet, where there is but sky and rock, water and ice, where every granitic ledge is as sharp as a 1950s Cadillac fin.

It is a supremely spare landscape, mind-bending, almost psychedelic in the scarce air. It has the stark beauty of a Zen garden, the perfect retreat for a prisoner of his ancestry. He went a ways to find it: He left the wire behind at 3,900 feet.

These are trophy-size goldens. They're a species known for overpopulating and having stunted growth. He must be holding lake fish, fish that have wintered over a few years but bear snaky bodies and oversized heads. There isn't much for a fish to eat where Ishikawa explored.

So he caught a bunch, probably with grasshoppers — that irresistible trout bait — then lugged the catch down the mountain and back through the wire. Miyatake then took the photo inside the camp. He also took the memory of Ishikawa's first name with him when he died in 1979.

Others tell fish tales earned by slipping away from camps like Heart Mountain, hard by the side of the Shoshone River in Wyoming. But no man seems to have gone so far, so high and so alone as Ishikawa, Fisherman.

Ishikawa must have felt he was on the roof of the world, compared to his government quarters below at Manzanar. I hope he found peace of mind and the happy loneliness common to solitary fishers. Local lore tells of Japanese characters inscribed on rocks up there. Maybe he left us his first name on the rocks of the Sierra.

I want to ride to the ridge where the West commences,

Gaze at the moon till I lose my senses

In my mind's eye I see him sitting by a fire miles above the camp his country forced him into. He's picking at a golden he's cooked, wrapped in grasses, encased in mud, steamed to succulent perfection in the coals. He's using pine twigs as chopsticks.

His fire lights the boulders around him, and he's made a bed of soft pine boughs and will sleep with only a wool blanket issued by Uncle Sam. Maybe he smiles at the heavens above.

He's all alone under the Milky Way. He's watching shooting stars. And, as the poet said, he looks up in perfect silence, free.

"Ishikawa, Fisherman" is on display through Aug. 1 at the Eastern California Museum in Independence, Calif. It's part of a 76-photo exhibition titled "Personal Responsibility: The Camp Photographs of Toyo Miyatake."

Darrell Kunitomi is an avid fly fisherman who lives in Echo Park. He can be reached at

[email protected].
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by dagosd2000 »

Rick
That was the first piece that I read of yours a while back. Great stuff. :TU:[/quote]

Thank you, Rog. You know I feel the same about your stories. When I wrote that one, I made a lot of mistakes with grammer and punctuation, it was one of my earliest attempts to write about boxing.

-Rick[/quote]
Rick
Punctuation,fluctuation. That was a great story with a great feel. Crossing the "i's" and dotting the "t's" is for the old ladies's Sunday afternoon poetry circle. Rog :lol:
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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Rick Farris wrote:Rick
Thanks for getting back to me on that.Looking at the tape after the fight was waved off by the doctor and Berumen,Napoles lookled panicky that he was going to lose his title. Io the rescue Jose Sulieman.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Roger . . . I learned something yesterday from Armando. A number of years ago, Bill O'Neill, a respected boxing journalist who once wrote for Boxing Illustrated, covering the Southern Cal scene, was President of the WBHOF. Shortly after his term had ended, the next group in charge decided to induct Don King & Jose Suliemen into our Hall of Fame. O'Neill and several others were so put off by their induction they walked away from the WBHOF. I understand his feelings, both men have made major names for themselves in the sport, and both are as crooked as a dog's hind leg. How do we handle such a situation properly? Where do we draw the line. Criminals and disreputable personalities were a part of boxing long before the Marquis of Queensbury laid down the ground rules.

Men such as these are as bad for the sport as they are good. Sadly, when you hear about managers & promoters, it's generally about the bad ones. You don't hear much about those who were straight shooters, such as Hap Navarro and the Hollywood Legionaires who ran a tight ship in a difficult era, back in the days when a title fight had to be sanctioned from the powers back east.

Just for the sake of conversation, and to pick the brains of some of our boxing afficianados here, how would YOU handle considering the induction of men such as Suliemen and Don King? Nothing is black & white in the world of boxing, everything seems to fall in that grey area.

I'm interested in everybody's opinion. There is no right or wrong answer.


-Rick Farris[/quote]
Rick
Since you threw that out,I'd pass on Don King. I don't know too much about Sulieman. You're right about boxing. The fighters swim with sharks and usually come out of it with a limb or two missing. Don King may think he's the Kingfish,but to me he's always been a predator.
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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TEARS MADE OF DIAMONDS

So you all know I like taking my grand daughter Amanda to Flamenco practice. I also enjoy watching her perform. Her school has a big show in Long Beach this weekend and the troupers have been rehearsing their fandangos off. Tonight everyone was at the studio going through a dress rehearsal. The studio is pretty small, and besides the girls wanted to change,so like the gentleman you guys know that I am,I exited to the Starbucks on the corner to do a little reading.

Since I got the cataract removed,I can read again. What a pleasure. I had in my possession a book of Ring Lardner short stories. I've read them dozens of times before,but never get exhausted in the re reading part. Lardner,Runyon,O'Henry,Hype Igoe:my kind of writers. The period around the turn of the century when anything could be had for a wink and the slight of hand has always fascinated me. Those scribes liked sports and knew how to put it down on paper. Call it guy stuff if you like,but like the song says"I Enjoy Being A Guy." :D

So I dive into "Alibi Ike " again. Lardner's yarn about the baseball player who's always making excuses. An alibi for going to the bathroom.

Well I get to the part where Alibi Ike breaks down and confesses to the boys that he bought a ring for his sweet heart. The line went something like"I got it off of Diamond Joe." That always does it for me. I know that part is comin' up,but I start with the water works anyway. Diamond Joe was my grand father. You guys know that.

I remember my father saying that if his dad would have lived things would have been different. Maybe. Maybe not. I know this though, I often get a little misty thinkin' about it.
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by Rick Farris »

scartissue wrote:Continuing my 'greatest contenders' piece. Here are the 175 lbers. Roger, Langford would probably be a force of nature at 175.

Scartissue

LT. HEAVY
Sam Langford (Can) (0)
Harry Greb (USA) (0)
Gene Tunney (USA) (0)
Young Stribling (USA) (1)
Mickey Walker (USA) (2)
Jimmy Bivins (USA) (0)
Lloyd Marshall (USA) (0)
Ezzard Charles (USA) (0)
Jorge Ahumada (Arg) (3)
Avenamar Peralta (Arg) (0)
Richie Kates (USA) (2)
Yaqui Lopez (Mex) (4)
Jesse Burnett (USA) (1)
James Scott (USA) (0)
James Toney (USA) (0)

Now this is more like it for Langford, facing a man in the opposite corner who weighs 175. At this weight he would be awesome in any era. Harry Greb, fought 5 Lt. Heavy champs as well as banging heads (don't believe for a minute that I'm kidding) with Gene Tunney no less than 5 times. They've never been constructed any tougher. As for Tunney, he fought the most of his brilliant career at Lt. Heavy, not moving up until a year prior to his challenge for Dempsey's big man's crown. Young Stribling, the 'King of the Canebrakes', fought 6 Lt. Heavy champs and 3 Heavy kings, but was more at home at 175. Beat Loughran, Rosenbloom and Slattery but lost to Berlanbach for the title. Mickey Walker, fought everyone from Welter to Heavy and didn't give a damn what they weighed. Made two exceptional challenges for the title against Loughran and Rosenbloom. Jimmy Bivins, avoided like the plague in two divisions, yet, beat 5 Lt. Heavy champs including Archie Moore as well as future Heavy champ Ezzard Charles. So let's say no more. Lloyd Marshall, the closest he came to a shot at the title was his bout against Bivins for the 'Duration' title during WWII, in which Bivins had to pick himself off the canvas to stop Marshall in the 13th. Marshall, one of my two division contenders, beat Maxim, Christoforidis and Mills at 175. Ezzard Charles, my personal pick for the greatest Lt. Heavy of all time, beat four 175 lb. champs as well as uncrowned kings Bivins (4 times) and Marshall (twice). Had Archie Moore's number, going 3-0 against the Mongoose. Jorge Ahumada, came out of the Buenos Aires ring wars seeking fame and fortune in NY. Was robbed in his 15 round draw with Foster and went head to head in unsuccessful bids against Conteh and Galindez for the WBC and WBA titles respectively. Along the way up the ladder he beat Galindez, Peralta, Andy Kendall, Bobby Cassidy and Ray anderson. Avenamar Peralta, Gregorio's little brother, had all the talent in the world but showed bad judgement when it came to displaying his wares. Whereas Ahumada chose NY to make his assault on the world stage, Peralta chose Europe, which afforded him a decent living but prevented that final stretch for the title. Nevertheless, he did beat Galindez (3 times), Ahumada, Bossman Jones, TNT Carroll and Ray Anderson. Richie Kates, with wins over Pierre Fourie, Len Hutchins, Jimmy Dupree and Don Fullmer, took on Galindez in two brutal 15 rounders and nearly decapitated Saad Muhammad for the NABF title in '78 before the miracle man got up and took him out in 6. Alvaro (Yaqui) Lopez, a fighting machine who fought competitively in four challenges for the crown against Galindez (twice), Conteh and Saad Muhammad. Also beat Rossman, Burnett (twice), Kendall and Tony Mundine. Jesse Burnett, the 70s version of Archie Moore. This slick old-timer beat Lopez (twice), Mundine (twice), Bossman Jones, Lonnie Bennett and retired Victor Galindez. James Scott, with only the four walls of Rahway State Prison holding him back and the ABC cameras rolling, he entertained audiences with his wins over Mustafa Muhammad, Lopez, Burnett, Kates and Bunny Johnson, until the novelty wore off and the cameras shut down. And finally, James Toney, at 168 (let's just call it Lt. Heavy) he displayed counter punching wizardry against Iran Barkley and proved he could war in the trenches against Prince Charles Williams. Unfortunately, excessive time at the dinner table prevented him from enjoying a lengthy stay at Lt. Heavy.

Honorable mention: Tommy Gibbons, Bobo Olson, Doug Jones, Henry Hank, Mauro Mina, Jimmy Dupree, Len Hutchins.

Scar- A name that came up in the body of your message, Eddie "Bossman" Jones, caught my attention. Jones was another light-heavy that was a bit too good for his own good, and had embarrassed more than one top ten heavyweight during sparring sessions in the gym.

I will never forget watching he and Jerry Quarry trading bombs in ring center at the Main Street Gym in 1968. In the very same ring where Jerry would floor Ken Norton, about a year later, Jones caught the "Bellflower Bomber" with a hook to the liver and Jerry went down, rersting a few seconds on one knee before rising and finishing the round.

On the that one Saturday morning, Eddie Jones got the best of Jerry Quarry. It wasn't just the body shot that left an impression, but the entire session, which if were a real match, Jones would have won the three rounds they sparred. Maybe the next day things would have been different, everybody has bad days in the gym. However, it was said that Jones also had his way with Ken Norton, and on more than one occasion. As Norton's sparring partner, Jones would get fired for bedding a lady that Kenny was interested in. However, perhaps there was more to it than that.

Eddie Jones was a helluva fighter. Today he works at a liquor store in Watts, or did a couple years back.

Another light-heavy that went virtually unheard of for decades prior to this past year was recently inducted World Boxing Hall of Famer, Young Firpo. Firp has been discussed inprevious pages on this thread so I will not elaborate, but he's another "forgotten" light-heavy.


-Rick Farris

I
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by Rick Farris »

dagosd2000 wrote:Rick
That was the first piece that I read of yours a while back. Great stuff. :TU:
Thank you, Rog. You know I feel the same about your stories. When I wrote that one, I made a lot of mistakes with grammer and punctuation, it was one of my earliest attempts to write about boxing.

-Rick[/quote]
Rick
Punctuation,fluctuation. That was a great story with a great feel. Crossing the "i's" and dotting the "t's" is for the old ladies's Sunday afternoon poetry circle. Rog :lol:[/quote]

That makes my day, Rog. Thank you! :TU:

-Rick
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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Image

The little lagoon behind the pueblo of San Antonio,Michoacan. The town is in the backround
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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Mother Nature threatens to mar opening of trout season

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Brian Vander Brug / Los Angeles Times
Johnny Martinez of South El Monte casts a line into Convict Lake last year during the trout season opener.

The forecast is calling for rain and snow, or at least clouds, in parts of the Eastern Sierra through the weekend. Low pressure and cloud cover, however, might inspire more trout activity.

Pete Thomas, Outdoors
April 24, 2009

For thousands of anglers driving northbound today on U.S. 395, the question is not whether fish will cooperate during Saturday's opening of the Eastern Sierra trout season.

All mid-elevation lakes have been ice-free since mid-February. Water temperatures have climbed into the low 50s, which is ideal, and insect hatches are luring rainbows and browns to the surface.

Fish will be eager to bite. In fact, a harvest of high proportion is anticipated beginning at dawn at locales such as Crowley Lake, Bishop Creek Canyon, the June Lake Loop, Convict Lake, Bridgeport Reservoir and Bridgeport's Twin Lakes.

There is, however, cause for mild concern. Mother Nature, after producing balmy and cloudless skies for the previous two openers, is threatening to deliver rain and snow -- or at least clouds -- to parts of the Eastern Sierra through the weekend.

It's a relatively weak system, though, and probably will not dampen spirits or hamper the effort. And the storm brings with it a silver lining: Low pressure and cloud cover might inspire more and longer trout activity.

This would starkly contrast to the previous two openers, when the bite essentially shut down after 9 a.m., and near-summer-like temperatures prevailed.

"Trout-fishing is better during a low pressure, and this could be the year the big browns bite at places like the Twin Lakes," says Anaheim's Marlon Meade, a perennial opening-day angler who traditionally fishes in Bishop Creek Canyon.

But there's more cause for concern: Ice fishermen at the high lakes -- including those above Bishop Creek Canyon -- will find conditions ranging from reasonably safe to perilous.

At South Lake, ice cover is two feet thick. That should be sufficient. Jared Smith, who runs South Lake Boat Landing, described conditions as "favorable" but cautioned, "Dark ice is bad -- don't go anywhere near it!"

At nearby Sabrina Lake, ice cover is only one foot thick and there's open water at the back of the lake. Ice fishing is not recommended; Sabrina-area anglers will be wise to ply creeks below the lake instead. (But don't miss the hot breakfasts and homemade pies cooked by the Apteds, who run the Sabrina concession.)

Anglers are advised to check with concessionaires before venturing out onto the ice at North Lake, Virginia Lakes and Rock Creek Lake.

A few more tidbits to chew on:

* Crowley Lake boat anglers must have their vessels inspected for quagga mussels. They can do so today from 7-10 a.m. at the Vons parking lot in Bishop or at the lake's South Landing today and Saturday morning. Be sure to present a clean, dry vessel, or you'll be denied access.

* Bridgeport Reservoir, traditionally one of the top opening-weekend fisheries, has been drawn down somewhat by the Nevada Irrigation District. It will not affect fishing, but the marina surface area has shrunk and this might delay the morning launching process. Anglers can try the free launch area near the dam, but that's uncontrolled and will be a circus.

* Some fly-fishing hot spots: East Walker River (open year-round; lots of impressive browns caught this past week on nymphs and streamers); West Walker River (good flows now; hike into the canyons to escape the crowds); Crowley Lake tributaries (always fun on McGee, Hilton and Convict creeks, close to but not part of the Crowley madness.)

* Top overall destination: June Lake Loop. The scenery surrounding the lakes is spectacular, and this area always produces top-caliber catches and smiles galore. This might also be one area most affected by the storm, but it's worth the risk.

* Be mindful of regulations. Wardens will be citing those without valid fishing licenses (required of anyone 16 or older) and in violation of the five-fish possession limit.

* Lastly, bring bug spray. If the weather turns nice and warms, as it might despite the forecast, the biting insects will regard Saturday as opening day on humans.

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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by scartissue »

Rick Farris wrote:
scartissue wrote:Continuing my 'greatest contenders' piece. Here are the 175 lbers. Roger, Langford would probably be a force of nature at 175.

Scartissue

LT. HEAVY
Sam Langford (Can) (0)
Harry Greb (USA) (0)
Gene Tunney (USA) (0)
Young Stribling (USA) (1)
Mickey Walker (USA) (2)
Jimmy Bivins (USA) (0)
Lloyd Marshall (USA) (0)
Ezzard Charles (USA) (0)
Jorge Ahumada (Arg) (3)
Avenamar Peralta (Arg) (0)
Richie Kates (USA) (2)
Yaqui Lopez (Mex) (4)
Jesse Burnett (USA) (1)
James Scott (USA) (0)
James Toney (USA) (0)

Now this is more like it for Langford, facing a man in the opposite corner who weighs 175. At this weight he would be awesome in any era. Harry Greb, fought 5 Lt. Heavy champs as well as banging heads (don't believe for a minute that I'm kidding) with Gene Tunney no less than 5 times. They've never been constructed any tougher. As for Tunney, he fought the most of his brilliant career at Lt. Heavy, not moving up until a year prior to his challenge for Dempsey's big man's crown. Young Stribling, the 'King of the Canebrakes', fought 6 Lt. Heavy champs and 3 Heavy kings, but was more at home at 175. Beat Loughran, Rosenbloom and Slattery but lost to Berlanbach for the title. Mickey Walker, fought everyone from Welter to Heavy and didn't give a damn what they weighed. Made two exceptional challenges for the title against Loughran and Rosenbloom. Jimmy Bivins, avoided like the plague in two divisions, yet, beat 5 Lt. Heavy champs including Archie Moore as well as future Heavy champ Ezzard Charles. So let's say no more. Lloyd Marshall, the closest he came to a shot at the title was his bout against Bivins for the 'Duration' title during WWII, in which Bivins had to pick himself off the canvas to stop Marshall in the 13th. Marshall, one of my two division contenders, beat Maxim, Christoforidis and Mills at 175. Ezzard Charles, my personal pick for the greatest Lt. Heavy of all time, beat four 175 lb. champs as well as uncrowned kings Bivins (4 times) and Marshall (twice). Had Archie Moore's number, going 3-0 against the Mongoose. Jorge Ahumada, came out of the Buenos Aires ring wars seeking fame and fortune in NY. Was robbed in his 15 round draw with Foster and went head to head in unsuccessful bids against Conteh and Galindez for the WBC and WBA titles respectively. Along the way up the ladder he beat Galindez, Peralta, Andy Kendall, Bobby Cassidy and Ray anderson. Avenamar Peralta, Gregorio's little brother, had all the talent in the world but showed bad judgement when it came to displaying his wares. Whereas Ahumada chose NY to make his assault on the world stage, Peralta chose Europe, which afforded him a decent living but prevented that final stretch for the title. Nevertheless, he did beat Galindez (3 times), Ahumada, Bossman Jones, TNT Carroll and Ray Anderson. Richie Kates, with wins over Pierre Fourie, Len Hutchins, Jimmy Dupree and Don Fullmer, took on Galindez in two brutal 15 rounders and nearly decapitated Saad Muhammad for the NABF title in '78 before the miracle man got up and took him out in 6. Alvaro (Yaqui) Lopez, a fighting machine who fought competitively in four challenges for the crown against Galindez (twice), Conteh and Saad Muhammad. Also beat Rossman, Burnett (twice), Kendall and Tony Mundine. Jesse Burnett, the 70s version of Archie Moore. This slick old-timer beat Lopez (twice), Mundine (twice), Bossman Jones, Lonnie Bennett and retired Victor Galindez. James Scott, with only the four walls of Rahway State Prison holding him back and the ABC cameras rolling, he entertained audiences with his wins over Mustafa Muhammad, Lopez, Burnett, Kates and Bunny Johnson, until the novelty wore off and the cameras shut down. And finally, James Toney, at 168 (let's just call it Lt. Heavy) he displayed counter punching wizardry against Iran Barkley and proved he could war in the trenches against Prince Charles Williams. Unfortunately, excessive time at the dinner table prevented him from enjoying a lengthy stay at Lt. Heavy.

Honorable mention: Tommy Gibbons, Bobo Olson, Doug Jones, Henry Hank, Mauro Mina, Jimmy Dupree, Len Hutchins.

Scar- A name that came up in the body of your message, Eddie "Bossman" Jones, caught my attention. Jones was another light-heavy that was a bit too good for his own good, and had embarrassed more than one top ten heavyweight during sparring sessions in the gym.

I will never forget watching he and Jerry Quarry trading bombs in ring center at the Main Street Gym in 1968. In the very same ring where Jerry would floor Ken Norton, about a year later, Jones caught the "Bellflower Bomber" with a hook to the liver and Jerry went down, rersting a few seconds on one knee before rising and finishing the round.

On the that one Saturday morning, Eddie Jones got the best of Jerry Quarry. It wasn't just the body shot that left an impression, but the entire session, which if were a real match, Jones would have won the three rounds they sparred. Maybe the next day things would have been different, everybody has bad days in the gym. However, it was said that Jones also had his way with Ken Norton, and on more than one occasion. As Norton's sparring partner, Jones would get fired for bedding a lady that Kenny was interested in. However, perhaps there was more to it than that.

Eddie Jones was a helluva fighter. Today he works at a liquor store in Watts, or did a couple years back.

Another light-heavy that went virtually unheard of for decades prior to this past year was recently inducted World Boxing Hall of Famer, Young Firpo. Firp has been discussed inprevious pages on this thread so I will not elaborate, but he's another "forgotten" light-heavy.


-Rick Farris

I
Rick, as I said in the initial post, I figure you guys will agree with me on at least 10 on the list and make about 5 changes of your own. Would you place Bossman and Young Firpo in the top 15? If so, who would you move into the 'honorable mention' category? Love the dialogue on this, BTW.

Scartissue
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by dagosd2000 »

scartissue wrote:
Rick Farris wrote:
scartissue wrote:Continuing my 'greatest contenders' piece. Here are the 175 lbers. Roger, Langford would probably be a force of nature at 175.

Scartissue

LT. HEAVY
Sam Langford (Can) (0)
Harry Greb (USA) (0)
Gene Tunney (USA) (0)
Young Stribling (USA) (1)
Mickey Walker (USA) (2)
Jimmy Bivins (USA) (0)
Lloyd Marshall (USA) (0)
Ezzard Charles (USA) (0)
Jorge Ahumada (Arg) (3)
Avenamar Peralta (Arg) (0)
Richie Kates (USA) (2)
Yaqui Lopez (Mex) (4)
Jesse Burnett (USA) (1)
James Scott (USA) (0)
James Toney (USA) (0)

Now this is more like it for Langford, facing a man in the opposite corner who weighs 175. At this weight he would be awesome in any era. Harry Greb, fought 5 Lt. Heavy champs as well as banging heads (don't believe for a minute that I'm kidding) with Gene Tunney no less than 5 times. They've never been constructed any tougher. As for Tunney, he fought the most of his brilliant career at Lt. Heavy, not moving up until a year prior to his challenge for Dempsey's big man's crown. Young Stribling, the 'King of the Canebrakes', fought 6 Lt. Heavy champs and 3 Heavy kings, but was more at home at 175. Beat Loughran, Rosenbloom and Slattery but lost to Berlanbach for the title. Mickey Walker, fought everyone from Welter to Heavy and didn't give a damn what they weighed. Made two exceptional challenges for the title against Loughran and Rosenbloom. Jimmy Bivins, avoided like the plague in two divisions, yet, beat 5 Lt. Heavy champs including Archie Moore as well as future Heavy champ Ezzard Charles. So let's say no more. Lloyd Marshall, the closest he came to a shot at the title was his bout against Bivins for the 'Duration' title during WWII, in which Bivins had to pick himself off the canvas to stop Marshall in the 13th. Marshall, one of my two division contenders, beat Maxim, Christoforidis and Mills at 175. Ezzard Charles, my personal pick for the greatest Lt. Heavy of all time, beat four 175 lb. champs as well as uncrowned kings Bivins (4 times) and Marshall (twice). Had Archie Moore's number, going 3-0 against the Mongoose. Jorge Ahumada, came out of the Buenos Aires ring wars seeking fame and fortune in NY. Was robbed in his 15 round draw with Foster and went head to head in unsuccessful bids against Conteh and Galindez for the WBC and WBA titles respectively. Along the way up the ladder he beat Galindez, Peralta, Andy Kendall, Bobby Cassidy and Ray anderson. Avenamar Peralta, Gregorio's little brother, had all the talent in the world but showed bad judgement when it came to displaying his wares. Whereas Ahumada chose NY to make his assault on the world stage, Peralta chose Europe, which afforded him a decent living but prevented that final stretch for the title. Nevertheless, he did beat Galindez (3 times), Ahumada, Bossman Jones, TNT Carroll and Ray Anderson. Richie Kates, with wins over Pierre Fourie, Len Hutchins, Jimmy Dupree and Don Fullmer, took on Galindez in two brutal 15 rounders and nearly decapitated Saad Muhammad for the NABF title in '78 before the miracle man got up and took him out in 6. Alvaro (Yaqui) Lopez, a fighting machine who fought competitively in four challenges for the crown against Galindez (twice), Conteh and Saad Muhammad. Also beat Rossman, Burnett (twice), Kendall and Tony Mundine. Jesse Burnett, the 70s version of Archie Moore. This slick old-timer beat Lopez (twice), Mundine (twice), Bossman Jones, Lonnie Bennett and retired Victor Galindez. James Scott, with only the four walls of Rahway State Prison holding him back and the ABC cameras rolling, he entertained audiences with his wins over Mustafa Muhammad, Lopez, Burnett, Kates and Bunny Johnson, until the novelty wore off and the cameras shut down. And finally, James Toney, at 168 (let's just call it Lt. Heavy) he displayed counter punching wizardry against Iran Barkley and proved he could war in the trenches against Prince Charles Williams. Unfortunately, excessive time at the dinner table prevented him from enjoying a lengthy stay at Lt. Heavy.

Honorable mention: Tommy Gibbons, Bobo Olson, Doug Jones, Henry Hank, Mauro Mina, Jimmy Dupree, Len Hutchins.

Scar- A name that came up in the body of your message, Eddie "Bossman" Jones, caught my attention. Jones was another light-heavy that was a bit too good for his own good, and had embarrassed more than one top ten heavyweight during sparring sessions in the gym.

I will never forget watching he and Jerry Quarry trading bombs in ring center at the Main Street Gym in 1968. In the very same ring where Jerry would floor Ken Norton, about a year later, Jones caught the "Bellflower Bomber" with a hook to the liver and Jerry went down, rersting a few seconds on one knee before rising and finishing the round.

On the that one Saturday morning, Eddie Jones got the best of Jerry Quarry. It wasn't just the body shot that left an impression, but the entire session, which if were a real match, Jones would have won the three rounds they sparred. Maybe the next day things would have been different, everybody has bad days in the gym. However, it was said that Jones also had his way with Ken Norton, and on more than one occasion. As Norton's sparring partner, Jones would get fired for bedding a lady that Kenny was interested in. However, perhaps there was more to it than that.

Eddie Jones was a helluva fighter. Today he works at a liquor store in Watts, or did a couple years back.

Another light-heavy that went virtually unheard of for decades prior to this past year was recently inducted World Boxing Hall of Famer, Young Firpo. Firp has been discussed inprevious pages on this thread so I will not elaborate, but he's another "forgotten" light-heavy.


-Rick Farris

I
Rick, as I said in the initial post, I figure you guys will agree with me on at least 10 on the list and make about 5 changes of your own. Would you place Bossman and Young Firpo in the top 15? If so, who would you move into the 'honorable mention' category? Love the dialogue on this, BTW.

Scartissue
Dan

Is J.H. Lewis good enough?
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by Rick Farris »

scartissue wrote:
Rick Farris wrote:
scartissue wrote:Continuing my 'greatest contenders' piece. Here are the 175 lbers. Roger, Langford would probably be a force of nature at 175.

Scartissue

LT. HEAVY
Sam Langford (Can) (0)
Harry Greb (USA) (0)
Gene Tunney (USA) (0)
Young Stribling (USA) (1)
Mickey Walker (USA) (2)
Jimmy Bivins (USA) (0)
Lloyd Marshall (USA) (0)
Ezzard Charles (USA) (0)
Jorge Ahumada (Arg) (3)
Avenamar Peralta (Arg) (0)
Richie Kates (USA) (2)
Yaqui Lopez (Mex) (4)
Jesse Burnett (USA) (1)
James Scott (USA) (0)
James Toney (USA) (0)

Now this is more like it for Langford, facing a man in the opposite corner who weighs 175. At this weight he would be awesome in any era. Harry Greb, fought 5 Lt. Heavy champs as well as banging heads (don't believe for a minute that I'm kidding) with Gene Tunney no less than 5 times. They've never been constructed any tougher. As for Tunney, he fought the most of his brilliant career at Lt. Heavy, not moving up until a year prior to his challenge for Dempsey's big man's crown. Young Stribling, the 'King of the Canebrakes', fought 6 Lt. Heavy champs and 3 Heavy kings, but was more at home at 175. Beat Loughran, Rosenbloom and Slattery but lost to Berlanbach for the title. Mickey Walker, fought everyone from Welter to Heavy and didn't give a damn what they weighed. Made two exceptional challenges for the title against Loughran and Rosenbloom. Jimmy Bivins, avoided like the plague in two divisions, yet, beat 5 Lt. Heavy champs including Archie Moore as well as future Heavy champ Ezzard Charles. So let's say no more. Lloyd Marshall, the closest he came to a shot at the title was his bout against Bivins for the 'Duration' title during WWII, in which Bivins had to pick himself off the canvas to stop Marshall in the 13th. Marshall, one of my two division contenders, beat Maxim, Christoforidis and Mills at 175. Ezzard Charles, my personal pick for the greatest Lt. Heavy of all time, beat four 175 lb. champs as well as uncrowned kings Bivins (4 times) and Marshall (twice). Had Archie Moore's number, going 3-0 against the Mongoose. Jorge Ahumada, came out of the Buenos Aires ring wars seeking fame and fortune in NY. Was robbed in his 15 round draw with Foster and went head to head in unsuccessful bids against Conteh and Galindez for the WBC and WBA titles respectively. Along the way up the ladder he beat Galindez, Peralta, Andy Kendall, Bobby Cassidy and Ray anderson. Avenamar Peralta, Gregorio's little brother, had all the talent in the world but showed bad judgement when it came to displaying his wares. Whereas Ahumada chose NY to make his assault on the world stage, Peralta chose Europe, which afforded him a decent living but prevented that final stretch for the title. Nevertheless, he did beat Galindez (3 times), Ahumada, Bossman Jones, TNT Carroll and Ray Anderson. Richie Kates, with wins over Pierre Fourie, Len Hutchins, Jimmy Dupree and Don Fullmer, took on Galindez in two brutal 15 rounders and nearly decapitated Saad Muhammad for the NABF title in '78 before the miracle man got up and took him out in 6. Alvaro (Yaqui) Lopez, a fighting machine who fought competitively in four challenges for the crown against Galindez (twice), Conteh and Saad Muhammad. Also beat Rossman, Burnett (twice), Kendall and Tony Mundine. Jesse Burnett, the 70s version of Archie Moore. This slick old-timer beat Lopez (twice), Mundine (twice), Bossman Jones, Lonnie Bennett and retired Victor Galindez. James Scott, with only the four walls of Rahway State Prison holding him back and the ABC cameras rolling, he entertained audiences with his wins over Mustafa Muhammad, Lopez, Burnett, Kates and Bunny Johnson, until the novelty wore off and the cameras shut down. And finally, James Toney, at 168 (let's just call it Lt. Heavy) he displayed counter punching wizardry against Iran Barkley and proved he could war in the trenches against Prince Charles Williams. Unfortunately, excessive time at the dinner table prevented him from enjoying a lengthy stay at Lt. Heavy.

Honorable mention: Tommy Gibbons, Bobo Olson, Doug Jones, Henry Hank, Mauro Mina, Jimmy Dupree, Len Hutchins.

Scar- A name that came up in the body of your message, Eddie "Bossman" Jones, caught my attention. Jones was another light-heavy that was a bit too good for his own good, and had embarrassed more than one top ten heavyweight during sparring sessions in the gym.

I will never forget watching he and Jerry Quarry trading bombs in ring center at the Main Street Gym in 1968. In the very same ring where Jerry would floor Ken Norton, about a year later, Jones caught the "Bellflower Bomber" with a hook to the liver and Jerry went down, rersting a few seconds on one knee before rising and finishing the round.

On the that one Saturday morning, Eddie Jones got the best of Jerry Quarry. It wasn't just the body shot that left an impression, but the entire session, which if were a real match, Jones would have won the three rounds they sparred. Maybe the next day things would have been different, everybody has bad days in the gym. However, it was said that Jones also had his way with Ken Norton, and on more than one occasion. As Norton's sparring partner, Jones would get fired for bedding a lady that Kenny was interested in. However, perhaps there was more to it than that.

Eddie Jones was a helluva fighter. Today he works at a liquor store in Watts, or did a couple years back.

Another light-heavy that went virtually unheard of for decades prior to this past year was recently inducted World Boxing Hall of Famer, Young Firpo. Firp has been discussed inprevious pages on this thread so I will not elaborate, but he's another "forgotten" light-heavy.


-Rick Farris

I
Rick, as I said in the initial post, I figure you guys will agree with me on at least 10 on the list and make about 5 changes of your own. Would you place Bossman and Young Firpo in the top 15? If so, who would you move into the 'honorable mention' category? Love the dialogue on this, BTW.

Scartissue

Scar . . . This is a very good topic, however, at the moment, I really can't focus much on the subject. There were so many boxers, styles, politics, one guy is great against one guy but fails against another who couldn't beat the other guy. Sometimes it just comes down to what night of the week, etc. Im pretty much buried in the WBHOF at this time of the year. The ballot is now complete and being printed.

With the film industry dead at the moment, I try to put all of my free time into straightening out the historically incorect data that I am finding in past editions of the annual WBHOF program (and by the way, mucho thanks to yourself for your help). This program is a very good publication, beautifully printed, etc. but I have taken it upon myself to correct errors, etc. When this has been accomplished, it will be a publication that we can all be proud of.

As far as Young Firpo is concerned, it's hard for many to rate his true talent due to the lack of film footage available. However, after viewing this human cyclone in a match with Wesley "KO" Ketchell (another forgotten light-heavy) I am convinced he deserves high ranking in any list containing the names of the greatest light-heavyies of all-time. I must refer also to the opinions of both Jimmy McLarnin and George Parnassus, who both rated Young Firpo as one of the best light-heavies ever. I was told this in 1971, at a luncheon that Parnassus had held in his office in Los Angeles, I was invited to join the group by my manager at the time, Suey Welch.

Eddie Jones? He was one of those guys who may have been mismanaged, or just a victim of his era. As we know, the guys who get the most attention are those with box-office appeal, and in this regard, Jones was more of an "opponent" than an "uncrowned champ". Today, of course, he'd be King of the world in era that consideres the likes of Roy Jones and Bernard Hopkins great. In Jones era, Hopkins would be a good ten round fighter, but would be a lost ball in high grass against an Archie Moore, Joey Maxim or Bob Foster. Just my opinion, of course.

I won't provide a list, but will toss in a name or two, just guys that made an impression on me. But whether or not they are truly "uncrowned Champs", who knows?


-Rick Farris
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by Rick Farris »

Dan

Is J.H. Lewis good enough?
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Rog . . . I'm not attempting to answer for Dan, but in my opinion, he certainly was. Lewis and Young Firpo fought to a draw. John Henry Lewis has been rightfully inducted into the WBHOF. And just for the record, John Henry Lewis was the World Light-Heavyweight Champion, not just a contender.

-Rick Farris
Last edited by Rick Farris on 24 Apr 2009, 20:23, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by Rick Farris »

delete
Last edited by Rick Farris on 24 Apr 2009, 19:26, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by kikibalt »

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/.a/6a00 ... 310970c-pi
Joe Frazier/Jerry Quarry

Click on newspaper clipping to enlarge
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by kikibalt »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whiEdyTUKf0
Julio Cesar Chavez vs Roger Mayweather
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by Rick Farris »

kikibalt wrote:http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/.a/6a00 ... 310970c-pi
Joe Frazier/Jerry Quarry

Click on newspaper clipping to enlarge
A Great Memory . . .

This brings back great memories. It was one of the greatest moments in the managerial career of our friend, Johnnie Flores.
Of course, we who were part of Johnnie's stable, the boxers who trained in his backyard gym in Pacoima, were aware of the negotiations days before this press release was publsihed.

The night before the rest of the world would learn that the Frazier-Quarry bout had been signed, Johnnie walked into his little gym with a big smile on his face. Johnnie's heavyweight, would get his second shot at a piece of the world heavyweight title. Most regarded Joe Frazier the true champ, not Jimmy Ellis, who had defeated Jerry the previous year for the WBA title after an eight man elimination tournament.

As I have said before, I would get weekly reports on Jerry's conditioning from his chief sparring partner, my friend Kit Boursse'. In his last letter, sent from the Grossinger's Resort training camp in the Catskills, Kit told me that Jerry was knocking out his sparring partners and had injured all but himself. Kit was just 18 at the time, and had been at Grossingers with Jerry earlier in the year, helping him get ready for Buster Mathis, however, this was different. "Jerry's very moody and meaner than Hell", Kit wrote. "I've read that some people don't give him a chance with Frazier, but the truth is, he's likely to knock him out."

Never before, or since, have I hoped a boxer would win the heavyweight title like I hoped Jerry would. I was 17, he was from our stable and I knew that it would give our mentor, Johnnie Flores, control of the biggest prize in professional sports. I remember watching the bout on closed-circuit TV at the Alex Theatre in Glendale. The sun was still shining here on the West Coast when the opening bell rang, and Jerry didn't waste anytime in introducting his power to Joe Frazier.

Quarry went to toe-to-toe with Frazier, truth is, he was faster than Joe and there is no doubt in my mind that Jerry had greater single punch power. He rocked the great Frazier with several punches and the crowd in the theatre jumped to their feet. When the bell ended round one, the crowd was going crazy, the smell of an upset was in the air. I remember my heart was racing, but I stayed in my seat quiet, watching Jonnie Flores and Teddy Bentham take care of their fighter. Before rising from his stool from round two, I see Johnnie do what he so often did to us in the corner, he'd put his hands on Jerry's chest from behind and pul inward, helping him take a deep breath of oxygen, then whispered something in his ear. Trainer Teddy Bentham , a sterotypical fight trainer right out of the Damon Runyon days, barked something at Jerry as he rose from his stool awaiting the bell.

Jerry fought Frazier tough. I don't know what he could have done better or different, he fought a good fight, however, Frazier's relentless forward motion didn't give Quarry any room to work. By round seven, Frazier was clearly in control and I could see Flores' chances of bringing home the heavyweight title to his little backyard gym in Pacoima were slipping away. Frazier would win by TKO.

He didn't bring home the title, but Jerry Quarry did us proud that night. He took his shot and went for it. He laid it all on the line. What balls!

Oh well, my heart starts to race everytime I think of that fight. I don't know why, but I have a tear in my eye as I type this.
You did good Jerry. Real good!


-Rick Farris
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by Expug »

Beautiful post Rick.
I love these memories of Jerry Quarry that you post.
And of course the memories of the others here and their direct experiences with these greats of yesteryear.
I posted awhile back how I was deeply moved by a documentary on Jerrys struggles a couple years before he died. The interviewer asked Jerry if he knew how he got hurt and wound up in his present situation living with his Mom.
Jerry replied "yeah, football".
Man, I will never ever forget that. I felt really sad for Jerry, but reading the great posts from Rick and others about him helps put into light just what a great fighter he was and how he lived life the way he wanted. Did what he loved.
Jerry was a fighters fighter.A credit to the sport.
Thanks to all of you for all these great contributions. I read them daily.

Pretty soon things will lighten up with the Bulls and Hawks and I will be around more.
The Celtics gave the Bulls a trimming last night, and that series could be over soon.
The Hawks are in a tough one with Calgary.All tied at two games apiece.

Rick,
Im doing backstage security for Bruce Springsteen in May.
Eric Clapton in June.
Ive worked a Springsteen show before and his people treated me very well.
Clapton should be good.I like some of his stuff, particularly his old stuff with Cream.
He probably wont play any of that though. :D
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by dagosd2000 »

IF YOU WANNA BE HAPPY

Ever know a guy like I'm talkin' about? Not a bad lookin' dude. Full of himself. Kind of the cock of the walk. Knows everything. Upbeat all the time. His secret? Well he's got a wife that the photogs wouldn't be especially interested in using up their film on. Nothing picturesque. To put it nicely...nothing to look at. But beauty is in the eye of the beholder. To make it even harder to figure,the gal has zero personality.

I used to know this fighter. He said he was a fighter once. Fought in Idaho or somewhere in the Rocky Mountains. Can't recall his last name,but he referred to himself with the moniker"Lucky". Now a lot of guys have that nickname,but to see this guy's wife,you'd think he'd put"Bad" in front of the "Lucky" part.

This guy joined up at Vic Gerardi's Ocean Beach Gym and every Mondays and Fridays we'd all be throwin' the iron around. Lucky would bring his wife along,but she'd be sittin' in the car waitin' for the workout to be over. Sometimes we'd be workin' out for hours on end and she'd be sittin' there like a mannequin staring straight ahead waitin' for her hubby.

Lucky would be payin' her no mind through all this. He'd talk about everything. He knew it all. One of those guys if you asked him the time,he'd tell you how they built the clock. Funny though,we'd get to talkin' about women and he'd never join in. He'd wait till we were done describin' how we'd give Liz Taylor the thrill of her life and when we'd finish,Lucky would move to a different topic.

I always thought that he was happy go "Lucky" because he knew his wife was a safe bet. She would gain weight and that was just more money in the bank for him. There wouldn't be any competitors for her attention.

One night he was explaining his fight with George Logan. I think Logan fought Ezzard at the end when we heard a loud moan outside. We ducked our heads out the door and we could see Lucky's wife experiencung discomfort. Turned out she was having a stroke.

We called the ambulance. She was rushed to the hospital. We never saw Lucky at the gym anymore after that. We heard later she was in a wheel chair.

Sometimes I think of those two. It was a long time ago. When I hear that song,"If You Wanna Be Happy," I kind of see the point in a way.About havin' an ugly wife. But the song doesn't make me happy.
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by dagosd2000 »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG3Z_R9wJ-w

I'm A Lonely Man

Sonny Boy Williamson
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by dagosd2000 »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sP0crYPCHV0

Got My Mojo Working
Ann Cole
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by dagosd2000 »

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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by dagosd2000 »

Image

Talked about this place a lot. Huffman's Bar B Q in Southeast San Diego. The Mongoose was no stranger.

Image

Aquanetta cookin' up a storm in the kitchen.

Image

Ol Arch with the owner Brooks Huffman before messing up a plate of fried chicken
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by bennie »

scartissue wrote:Just as a bit of a divergence, I saw someone started a thread elsewhere on boxrec naming the great contenders. Here is an opinionated piece I did a couple of years ago on the greatest contenders never to win a title at a particular weight class and I named every weight class. Obviously it was preying on my mind for some time cuz I spent a bit of time at it. I began by giving my rules of engagement on who was eligible. So, just for a bit of fun, here is my opinion of the great contenders. I'll begin with the heavyweights. And just like I mentioned it below, you might agree with me on 10 contenders and scream, "Have Hanley committed" on the other 5. Anyway, let's have some fun and I hope this translates well from a copy & paste.

Scartissue


THE CONTENDERS


Awright, Fightnuts, are we ready for another go? I'm gonna stray a little this month on a pugilistic subject that is a favorite of mine, a somewhat bent subject in this day and age of 'champions only' that requires perhaps, a bent mind to nurture. Implementing this wayward thought came to me while reading an article that has been written for the umpteenth time on the 20 greatest fighters of all time. Now, much as I still enjoy reading about these great fighters, I just feel some of these stories on the same fighters have been done to death. Therefore, in order to set a fire under everyone's stool, I'm gonna rattle the cage a bit and dwell on the great unsung heroes of boxing for a change. Of course we know them as CONTENDERS.
Who are the greatest fighters never to win a world title at a respective weight? Whether avoided due to talent, denied because of race, or simply unfortunate enough to have met an outstanding champion of their era, these fighters should be acknowledged for what they were, with their day having passed. So...a roster of boxing's 'nearly' men begged to be formed. Okay, so we have the 'what' in place, now we examine the 'how'. The criteria I've used in forming my listing is thus:

1) A fighter must have fought competitively at the designated weight.

2) A fighter cannot have held a 'world' title of any kind at the designated weight (Where do I draw the line? I tell ya, I was downright nasty on this one due to the spurious claims to world titles out there. Excluding those nonsensical White, Negro, Interim and any title below WBO in the alphabet categories, I counted every claim and, unfortunately, had to exclude great fighters like Hedgemon Lewis (Welter), Tiger Jack Fox (Lt. Heavy) and Len Harvey (Lt. Heavy) due to New York and European recognition as world champs at their weight class).

3) A champion from another weight class is eligible provided he meets points 1 and 2.

4) Straw, Jr. Fly, Super Fly, Super Bantam, Super Middle and Cruiser weight divisions are unrecognised. Therefore, champions as well as contenders from those weight classes are eligible as contenders at the next higher weight class.
Awright, now that we know where we're going with this, I should add that this chronological listing (not a ranking) of my top 15 is based on opinion and not what a fighter may have achieved throughout a lengthy career. In other words, I've simply rated whom I feel was the better fighter.
Now, I catch a lot of E-mails graced with both praise and criticism from you lot out there and I will admit you're a knowledgable bunch. So, before you Fightnuts out there scroll down, perhaps you should first form your own listing. My guess is you'll agree with me on ten of my fifteen and scream "Have Hanley committed!" on the other five. Ahh, but isn't the argument what it's all about? So, without further ado, let's have a little fun butting heads on this backbone of boxing.

(Note: the fighter's name is followed by birthplace and number of title shots received at the weight)


HEAVY
Sam Langford (Can) (0)
Joe Jeanette (USA) (0)
Harry Wills (USA) (0)
Tommy Farr (Wales) (1)
Jimmy Bivins (USA) (0)
Elmer Ray (USA) (0)
Archie Moore (USA) (2)
Zora Folley (USA) (1)
Eddie Machen (USA) (1)
Oscar Bonavena (Arg) (1)
Jerry Quarry (USA) (2)
Ron Lyle (USA) (1)
Earnie Shavers (USA) (2)
Jimmy Young (USA) (1)
Gerry Cooney (USA) (1)

Believe it or not, Sam Langford, probably a staple on everyone’s list, barely made mine. With apologies to some of you out there that believe I've committed boxing sacrilege, I just have a hard time placing someone on my heavyweight list who weighed 175 and was the same height as Marco Antonio Barrera. I had a much easier time ranking his contemporaries, Jeanette and Wills, who, admittedly, he stayed with on an even keel. But Jeanette at 5'10" and Wills at 6'4" had a much better chance of staying with the Heavys of the ages after the days of brawling gave way to technique. Tommy Farr earned his berth by way of a great chin, immaculate skills and by giving Louis, Baer and Braddock all they could handle. Jimmy Bivins, better as a Lt. Heavy, yet, engaged Louis, Walcott and a Heavyweight Charles in some real toe to toes. Also was Interim champ during Louis' war years. Elmer Ray, top dog in the 40's, beat both Charles and Walcott during his heyday. Archie Moore, old as friggin' Methusaleh and a Lt. Heavy to boot, yet beat Nino Valdez (twice), Bob Baker, Clarence Henry and took Marciano to a life and death struggle in '55. Zora Folley, victim of his ties to the IBC, entered the top ten in '56 and stayed there until receiving his only title opportunity in '67 at the age of 34. Eddie Machen, fought five Heavy champs and had all the tools, but always missed that big one. Oscar Bonavena, a snarling bull of a fighter who gave a peak Ali and Frazier some nasty lumps while taking the same in return willingly. Jerry Quarry, a 60s-70s version of Jack Sharkey. A counter-punching master whose head-strong character got him into unnecessary punch-outs. Ron Lyle, on his night he was something. Wins over Ellis, Bonavena, Shavers, Bugner and a memorable brawl with Foreman put him on the Heavy map. Earnie Shavers, if you could get him into the later rounds you might have a chance, but those first five rounds were an incredible gauntlet to run. One of the best one punch bangers ever, just ask Norton, Ellis and Young. Speaking of Jimmy Young, they didn't come any slicker. Only lacking a punch, Young's skills were at their peak when he was going at it with Ali, Foreman, Norton and Lyle (twice). Gerry Cooney, the much maligned Cooney I might add, suffered only from bad management. His talents needed a forum but he fought only sporadically. Although his power was evident (Norton, Lyle), his skills were underrated. His best night was when he ripped Jimmy Young's face to shreds with his left jab alone and then slipped into a once a year fight schedule. Talent never realized.

Honorable mention: Luther McCarty, Sam McVey, George Godfrey, Larry Gains, Roland LaStarza, George Chuvalo, Cleveland Williams, Jeff Merritt, David Tua.
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bennie
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by bennie »

scartissue wrote:Continuing my 'greatest contenders' piece. Here are the 175 lbers. Roger, Langford would probably be a force of nature at 175.

Scartissue

LT. HEAVY
Sam Langford (Can) (0)
Harry Greb (USA) (0)
Gene Tunney (USA) (0)
Young Stribling (USA) (1)
Mickey Walker (USA) (2)
Jimmy Bivins (USA) (0)
Lloyd Marshall (USA) (0)
Ezzard Charles (USA) (0)
Jorge Ahumada (Arg) (3)
Avenamar Peralta (Arg) (0)
Richie Kates (USA) (2)
Yaqui Lopez (Mex) (4)
Jesse Burnett (USA) (1)
James Scott (USA) (0)
James Toney (USA) (0)

Now this is more like it for Langford, facing a man in the opposite corner who weighs 175. At this weight he would be awesome in any era. Harry Greb, fought 5 Lt. Heavy champs as well as banging heads (don't believe for a minute that I'm kidding) with Gene Tunney no less than 5 times. They've never been constructed any tougher. As for Tunney, he fought the most of his brilliant career at Lt. Heavy, not moving up until a year prior to his challenge for Dempsey's big man's crown. Young Stribling, the 'King of the Canebrakes', fought 6 Lt. Heavy champs and 3 Heavy kings, but was more at home at 175. Beat Loughran, Rosenbloom and Slattery but lost to Berlanbach for the title. Mickey Walker, fought everyone from Welter to Heavy and didn't give a damn what they weighed. Made two exceptional challenges for the title against Loughran and Rosenbloom. Jimmy Bivins, avoided like the plague in two divisions, yet, beat 5 Lt. Heavy champs including Archie Moore as well as future Heavy champ Ezzard Charles. So let's say no more. Lloyd Marshall, the closest he came to a shot at the title was his bout against Bivins for the 'Duration' title during WWII, in which Bivins had to pick himself off the canvas to stop Marshall in the 13th. Marshall, one of my two division contenders, beat Maxim, Christoforidis and Mills at 175. Ezzard Charles, my personal pick for the greatest Lt. Heavy of all time, beat four 175 lb. champs as well as uncrowned kings Bivins (4 times) and Marshall (twice). Had Archie Moore's number, going 3-0 against the Mongoose. Jorge Ahumada, came out of the Buenos Aires ring wars seeking fame and fortune in NY. Was robbed in his 15 round draw with Foster and went head to head in unsuccessful bids against Conteh and Galindez for the WBC and WBA titles respectively. Along the way up the ladder he beat Galindez, Peralta, Andy Kendall, Bobby Cassidy and Ray anderson. Avenamar Peralta, Gregorio's little brother, had all the talent in the world but showed bad judgement when it came to displaying his wares. Whereas Ahumada chose NY to make his assault on the world stage, Peralta chose Europe, which afforded him a decent living but prevented that final stretch for the title. Nevertheless, he did beat Galindez (3 times), Ahumada, Bossman Jones, TNT Carroll and Ray Anderson. Richie Kates, with wins over Pierre Fourie, Len Hutchins, Jimmy Dupree and Don Fullmer, took on Galindez in two brutal 15 rounders and nearly decapitated Saad Muhammad for the NABF title in '78 before the miracle man got up and took him out in 6. Alvaro (Yaqui) Lopez, a fighting machine who fought competitively in four challenges for the crown against Galindez (twice), Conteh and Saad Muhammad. Also beat Rossman, Burnett (twice), Kendall and Tony Mundine. Jesse Burnett, the 70s version of Archie Moore. This slick old-timer beat Lopez (twice), Mundine (twice), Bossman Jones, Lonnie Bennett and retired Victor Galindez. James Scott, with only the four walls of Rahway State Prison holding him back and the ABC cameras rolling, he entertained audiences with his wins over Mustafa Muhammad, Lopez, Burnett, Kates and Bunny Johnson, until the novelty wore off and the cameras shut down. And finally, James Toney, at 168 (let's just call it Lt. Heavy) he displayed counter punching wizardry against Iran Barkley and proved he could war in the trenches against Prince Charles Williams. Unfortunately, excessive time at the dinner table prevented him from enjoying a lengthy stay at Lt. Heavy.

Honorable mention: Tommy Gibbons, Bobo Olson, Doug Jones, Henry Hank, Mauro Mina, Jimmy Dupree, Len Hutchins.
Love it more! The research effort is phenomenal.
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