BoxRec

thunderfromdownunder wrote:

p4p1 wrote:

thunderfromdownunder wrote:
Cyborg did turn down two fights, and now is apparently in hot water again.
I'm guessing she wanted time to cycle off whatever she was taking. Brazilians are dropping like flies with all the testing now

I think you'll find more Americans have tested positive than Brazilians.
But I do disagree about them dropping like flies because of USADA testing. Aldo and RDA just got caught, RDA looked like a beast earlier even while full USADA testing was going on, Aldo turned in a career best performance against Edgar. Werdum was another who just got caught due to stupid tactics and over confidence, hardly anything to do with USADA. There's no Brazilian at LHW who was ever as good as Jones/Cormier/Rumble, Jacare beat Romero even though Romero tested positive after the fight and has IMO been fucked over by circumstance but still looks as good as he ever has. Maia is still grabbing ahold of people and strangling them like always. So I don't know how you can blame USADA testing for top Brazilians losing when they're not losing because of lack of strength or speed or endurance but just making mistakes with 4oz gloves on.

A lot of notable Brazilians have been popped lately though, A.Silva, W.silva, Machida,Belfort, Bigfoot, cyborg ect.
I remember reading about odd behaviour from Aldo prior to the Connor fight to, something about refusing to give a urine test.

Though on the other hand USADA does seem a little to extreme, banging on people's doors at all hours, wanting to know their travel plans and what not. And machidas suspension seemed harsh too, apparently it was something readily available over the counter

Aldo's situation wasn't odd though, the guy turned up in the gym without all he correct paperwork. It was a smart move. Anderson's case is a bit special IMO he got busted for something that stays in your system for months that a seasoned doper wouldn't touch. I think the likely explanation is he was taking stuff to speed up recovery of the broken leg which IIRC the doctors said healed surprisingly well. Wandy, Belfort, Bigfoot were always dopers. Belfort and Bigfoot(like many American fighters) got by for a while doing it legally. The outcome of Cyborgs tests is still not clear, though she tested positive years ago before.

Jones tested for Estrogen blockers and pre that his strange T/E ratio had been mentioned by a few people, Mendes, Lesnar, Mir, Cerrone, Barnett, Rothwell, Cung Le among of heap of lesser known fighters. Saying it's a Brazilian thing isn't fair, there's also been a huge amount of Americans (Hendricks & Weidman for example) who have lost a huge amount of form since USADA.

2 main issues for rousey
1. She was fighting at a low level so has been caught by surprise when facing a higher level of opposition
2. Has a crap trainer who doesn't have her fighting to her strengths. It's MMA 101 that if you're a grappler you keep tucked up and walk through the punches to close the distance of you have to, where as she is trying to mindlessly brawl her way in against far superior strikers (it happening once is a wake up call, doing it twice and the trainer has to be to blame). she should sit down and watch some Gracie fights.

Finn wrote:2 main issues for rousey
1. She was fighting at a low level so has been caught by surprise when facing a higher level of opposition
2. Has a crap trainer who doesn't have her fighting to her strengths. It's MMA 101 that if you're a grappler you keep tucked up and walk through the punches to close the distance of you have to, where as she is trying to mindlessly brawl her way in against far superior strikers (it happening once is a wake up call, doing it twice and the trainer has to be to blame). she should sit down and watch some Gracie fights.

Perfect cashout for her. Move on and have a good life.

p4p1 wrote:

thunderfromdownunder wrote:

p4p1 wrote: I think you'll find more Americans have tested positive than Brazilians.
But I do disagree about them dropping like flies because of USADA testing. Aldo and RDA just got caught, RDA looked like a beast earlier even while full USADA testing was going on, Aldo turned in a career best performance against Edgar. Werdum was another who just got caught due to stupid tactics and over confidence, hardly anything to do with USADA. There's no Brazilian at LHW who was ever as good as Jones/Cormier/Rumble, Jacare beat Romero even though Romero tested positive after the fight and has IMO been fucked over by circumstance but still looks as good as he ever has. Maia is still grabbing ahold of people and strangling them like always. So I don't know how you can blame USADA testing for top Brazilians losing when they're not losing because of lack of strength or speed or endurance but just making mistakes with 4oz gloves on.

A lot of notable Brazilians have been popped lately though, A.Silva, W.silva, Machida,Belfort, Bigfoot, cyborg ect.
I remember reading about odd behaviour from Aldo prior to the Connor fight to, something about refusing to give a urine test.

Though on the other hand USADA does seem a little to extreme, banging on people's doors at all hours, wanting to know their travel plans and what not. And machidas suspension seemed harsh too, apparently it was something readily available over the counter

Aldo's situation wasn't odd though, the guy turned up in the gym without all he correct paperwork. It was a smart move. Anderson's case is a bit special IMO he got busted for something that stays in your system for months that a seasoned doper wouldn't touch. I think the likely explanation is he was taking stuff to speed up recovery of the broken leg which IIRC the doctors said healed surprisingly well. Wandy, Belfort, Bigfoot were always dopers. Belfort and Bigfoot(like many American fighters) got by for a while doing it legally. The outcome of Cyborgs tests is still not clear, though she tested positive years ago before.

Jones tested for Estrogen blockers and pre that his strange T/E ratio had been mentioned by a few people, Mendes, Lesnar, Mir, Cerrone, Barnett, Rothwell, Cung Le among of heap of lesser known fighters. Saying it's a Brazilian thing isn't fair, there's also been a huge amount of Americans (Hendricks & Weidman for example) who have lost a huge amount of form since USADA.

Maybe, for years now I've always heard rumours of Brazilians not liking to fight in the US because of stricter testing, that's probably what it is though, rumours. As far as Anderson goes, didn't he claim it was from dick pills? I think he would have gotten some leniency from fans regardless, due to his age, his legendary status and that horrible snapped leg.

I believe Mendes' medication for his eczema caused his failed test. Two years is a career killer

p4p1 wrote:

clopixolacuphase wrote:
Edit to add. Since full random USADA testing Ronda is 0-2 and has looked slow, and not looked so strong like she used to. Is it just a coincidence? Sure she's met two women who fought smartly that added to that and were for once her size but it's certainly worth mentioning.

During that same time, the UFC has not allowed fighters to use IV drips to rehydrate.

One thing I noticed as Ronda was walking into the cage was that she didn't look at large/puffy/super-hydrated that she normally does.

At first, I thought it was a sign that she was in great shape. But, then again, it could have meant that she no longer was as super-hydrated that she used to be.

zojo, wrote:

p4p1 wrote:

clopixolacuphase wrote:
Edit to add. Since full random USADA testing Ronda is 0-2 and has looked slow, and not looked so strong like she used to. Is it just a coincidence? Sure she's met two women who fought smartly that added to that and were for once her size but it's certainly worth mentioning.

During that same time, the UFC has not allowed fighters to use IV drips to rehydrate.

One thing I noticed as Ronda was walking into the cage was that she didn't look at large/puffy/super-hydrated that she normally does.

At first, I thought it was a sign that she was in great shape. But, then again, it could have meant that she no longer was as super-hydrated that she used to be.

IV ban has affected some fighters, but not Ronda. That was lack of skill and low fight IQ.

punchoutsb wrote:

Tinnie wrote:I almost feel sorry for Rousey..... but then i remember how she treated her opponents.... if she'd ever shown the slightest bit of humility during her glory days, i might feel sorry for her....

Cruz is a freak but still got a little clowned tonight, wasnt as impressed with Dillashaw...

I do feel very sorry for her and I hope she has loved ones close to her tonight.

But as far as the sport goes she was a pioneer for womens MMA and built a mystique beating up part timers. She was a bully, but the game catches up fast. It always does. And the savage UFC PR machine did her no favors marketing her the way they did. Goodbye Hollywood, goodbye MMA, goodbye spotlight.

She is still a person at the end of the day. She was extremely dislikeable but these losses will be taken very hard by her, like deaths. Say that's a weakness all you want, but it's true. I can't think of a harder fall from grace by anybody, to be honest. Hatton is vaguely comparable: the Pacquiao loss was a huge humiliation for him, one he has never seemed to get over. He's a millionaire, but so what? He's terribly unhappy. It's a shame.

I wish her all the best.

The idea that the talent in the division has dramatically increased in Rousey's absence, and as such has now passed her by, has gained traction. It's not though borne out by facts. For the most part the top 10 at 135 lbs is filled with people who were either beaten by Rousey or beaten by people who Rousey beat. With the exception of Shevchenko there's also no one in the top ten who wasn't in the UFC at the time of the Rousey/Holm fight.

Champion: Amanda Nunes (has losses to Alexis Davis, Sarah D'Alelio and Cat Zingano all of whom lost to Rousey in under a minute)

1: Ronda Rousey
2. Valentina Shevchenko (Lost to Liz Carmouche)
3. Julianna Peña (The exception. Has two losses outside the UFC to opponents who aren't in Rousey's orbit)
4. Holly Holm (Lost to Meisha Tate)
5. Raquel Pennington (Lost to Cat Zingano and Leslie Smith)
6. Cat Zingano (Lost to Rousey)
7. Sara McMann (Lost to Rousey)
8. Liz Carmouche (Lost to Rousey)
9. Bethe Correia (Lost to Rousey)
10. Germaie De Randamie (Lost to Juila Budd)

Of the two to contenders...

I think Shevchenko is a good fighter and she's very good at some things. However (while I might pick her to beat Nunes over five rounds) I find it hard to accept that she's indicative of some new standard of super well rounded fighter that has risen up in Rousey's absence. Shevchenko has two wins in the UFC. One of them was against Holm who (skill wise) she matches up very well with. The other (last December) is a split decision victory over Sarah Kaufman. That would be the same Sarah Kaufman who Rousey beat in 54 seconds.

As for Pena, she also does some things well. Again though I can't accept that she's indicative of a new breed. She's been in the UFC three years. While she may have improved she is essentially what she always was. A good grappler with striking that is in no way special. Plus, it's not like she's looked devastating in her recent decision wins over Cat Zingano and Jessica Eye. That not to say she's looked bad. It's just nothing about those wins made me think, "My God. Who is this new breed of killer?".

Put simply, Shevchenko is a great striker who can be out grappled and Pena is a good grappler who can be out struck.

As for Nunes, I will accept that she has improved since joining ATT. However as good as she has looked in her last two fights is she a fundamentally different fighter now that when she beat Shevchenko in back in March in what was a competitive fight where she faded in (and lost) the third round? I think that the answer is no.

I think the issue that Rousey has is that she ran into two fighters who had the skills necessary to exploit the flaws that were always present. Styles make fights and all that.

The division has passed her by because she hasn't improved at all. She can't strike, the other women have learnt this now. She can't shoot for a single or a double, she needs to get the clinch. Before Holm her previous opponents for some reason didn't/couldn't work out that all you have to do is push her away and back away while she bull rushing for the clinch. Others like Zingano literally ran straight into a clinch.

I think Edmond is getting too much blame TBH, sure he definitely is not a great coach but even a bad coach would've improved Rouseys boxing far more than it has improved in the 5+ years she's been doing it. I think it likely just comes down to the fact she doesn't have any natural talent when it comes to striking. She was taught to grapple from such an early age and women's Judo has such a shallow talent pool that maybe just maybe she was able to overcome not being a real naturally talented athlete due to constant drilling from the time she could walk. We've seen guys who arent technically sound get by in the top level of boxing thanks to almost unfair genetic gifts. If she was the athlete people like to think she was/is there's no reason to believe that she couldn't either. There's people who've been training for 3 months that exhibit better head movement, timing and an understanding of distance than Rousey.

Once again I'll bring it up as well, when USADA came she went from rag-dolling and looking so much stronger than everyone she fought to barely being able to secure a clinch. Does anyone really believe she isn't the type of person that would dope? Or that her camp is above such things? I don't know for sure but so many seem quick to jump down the throats of Brazilians whos results(though a few have just been caught and finished) have gotten worse since USADA but not Rousey?

I don't think the division has passed her by at all. I'd only favor three in the top ten to beat her: Holm, Nunes, and Shevchenko. Zingano rematch and Pena would be interesting with Rousey a slight favorite. She still destroys the McMann's, Correia's, Penningtons of the game.

It's the younger generation that have/will passed her by. Many who will be signed by the UFC within the next 2-3 years. Some in Invicta already. They will be trained from a young age as mixed martial artists. They will be well rounded and posses fight IQ's out of the single digits unlike most of Rousey's opponents. Ronda's confidence is shattered and that will play a part going forward, but there hasn't been any substantial skill advancement in the 135 top ten; it's still light years behind 115.

punchoutsb wrote:I don't think the division has passed her by at all. I'd only favor three in the top ten to beat her: Holm, Nunes, and Shevchenko. Zingano rematch and Pena would be interesting with Rousey a slight favorite. She still destroys the McMann's, Correia's, Penningtons of the game.

It's the younger generation that have/will passed her by. Many who will be signed by the UFC within the next 2-3 years. Some in Invicta already. They will be trained from a young age as mixed martial artists. They will be well rounded and posses fight IQ's out of the single digits unlike most of Rousey's opponents. Ronda's confidence is shattered and that will play a part going forward, but there hasn't been any substantial skill advancement in the 135 top ten; it's still light years behind 115.

I think she could be Pena and would probably favour her to but the reason why I say the division has passed her by is because you just listed 4 women who would probably beat her. She won't ever be champ again. We say Anderson is done because he won't ever be champ again(admittedly he could do a Bisping) but he would still be able to beat a few in the top 10.

With regards to Edmond telling Ronda her striking is great and that was a downfall of hers, we've seen that she doesn't respond well to negativety. I'm not saying it didn't backfire but she clearly needs positive reinforcement, this is a woman who couldn't handle being out grappled by 100kg male BJJ black belt or Gegard Mousasi. I think it's very possible(and remember she went through a few gyms before she decided to stay at Edmonds) that she can't handle being told something she does sucks.

p4p1 wrote:

punchoutsb wrote:I don't think the division has passed her by at all. I'd only favor three in the top ten to beat her: Holm, Nunes, and Shevchenko. Zingano rematch and Pena would be interesting with Rousey a slight favorite. She still destroys the McMann's, Correia's, Penningtons of the game.

It's the younger generation that have/will passed her by. Many who will be signed by the UFC within the next 2-3 years. Some in Invicta already. They will be trained from a young age as mixed martial artists. They will be well rounded and posses fight IQ's out of the single digits unlike most of Rousey's opponents. Ronda's confidence is shattered and that will play a part going forward, but there hasn't been any substantial skill advancement in the 135 top ten; it's still light years behind 115.

I think she could be Pena and would probably favour her to but the reason why I say the division has passed her by is because you just listed 4 women who would probably beat her. She won't ever be champ again. We say Anderson is done because he won't ever be champ again(admittedly he could do a Bisping) but he would still be able to beat a few in the top 10.

With regards to Edmond telling Ronda her striking is great and that was a downfall of hers, we've seen that she doesn't respond well to negativety. I'm not saying it didn't backfire but she clearly needs positive reinforcement, this is a woman who couldn't handle being out grappled by 100kg male BJJ black belt or Gegard Mousasi. I think it's very possible(and remember she went through a few gyms before she decided to stay at Edmonds) that she can't handle being told something she does sucks.

Amen. I have zero doubt and read numerous reports that Ronda does not accept being told that she's not the best in anything. This attitude is needed to reach a high level of performance, but it needs to be tempered with realism so improvements can be made. To a point that was Brock's downfall as well. He wouldn't change camps and was surrounded by yes men. One of my very good friends left the camp over this; he's one of the most decorated mixed martial artists ever, approaching 100 professional fights and he was sick and tired of people telling Brock he had nothing to improve on when he clearly did.

Edmond sucks, he really sucks, but Ronda appears to be unteachable in certain aspects. This is the most basic truth of this situation: Ronda's drive was her creation, her pride was her downfall.

Khabib over Twitter just offered 200k of his own purse to Ferguson to make the fight. He's not fornicating around.

I think Rousey is done mentally. Rousey pre-Holm would have been much more competitive against Nunes. The Holm KO ruined her.

p4p1 wrote:Khabib over Twitter just offered 200k of his own purse to Ferguson to make the fight. He's not effing around.

I saw that. Great play by Khabib! He is doing everything right to force a McGregor fight in the very near future. Ferguson is no easy task, and I believe him to be a tougher match-up for Khabib than Conor. But Nurmy still wins.

Impractical Poster wrote:

p4p1 wrote:Khabib over Twitter just offered 200k of his own purse to Ferguson to make the fight. He's not effing around.

I saw that. Great play by Khabib! He is doing everything right to force a McGregor fight in the very near future. Ferguson is no easy task, and I believe him to be a tougher match-up for Khabib than Conor. But Nurmy still wins.

Great move from Khabib. He's really leaving Ferguson nowhere to go now other than to sign to fight him or look like a bitch and lose a chance at an immidiate shot once Conor is off of maternity leave. Business wise he spends 200k to guarantee(assuming he wins) a multi million dollar fight with Conor. He's doing all the right things to get his name out there and get on top.

Impractical Poster wrote:I think Rousey is done mentally. Rousey pre-Holm would have been much more competitive against Nunes. The Holm KO ruined her.

I think in a sense you're right because she probably wouldn't have caved so quickly and she would've probably gone for it a bit more but she would still likely have been stopped within the first few mins anyway. Nunes hits too hard to take flush shots against and her defence was always terrible.

Has anyone seen the card for 208? It's fuckin terrible. Not completely the UFCs fault through. Bisping is sitting out until whenever he decides the time is right to lose the belt, Cormier injured, the HW contender mess(Werdum refusing to fight JDS, Cain injured, Miocic destroying Wedrum so no need for a quick rematch JDS losing not so long ago to Overeem), Woodley only just fought, same with McGregor who is taking time away anyway, Max is injured so can't fulfill his obligation for 208, Gambrandt just fought, no one cares about Mighty Mouse or Joanna J enough that the Yankees can headline a PPV. That leaves established PPV stars most of who have either injured, past it or just fought. So it's probably gonna be a while before we see some exciting meaningful fights.

209 was supposed to have Lawler vs Diaz which was orobably the most exciting non title fight the time couldn't be made because Diaz has reportedly turned it down.

For a PPV, 208 is indeed horrible. Maybe they will knock this down to FS1. Poirier/Miller is nice little scrap, but that's about it for intriguing matches on this card. I could take or leave the other bouts.

I am looking forward to Cerrone/Masvidal at the end of the month as well. Actually, that card is better than UFC 208 IMO.

Bisping and Woodley have verbally agreed to fight each other at 180lbs. I don't know if the UFC will let it happen but God I hope they don't. Bisping just got a gift title defence against Hendo when there's guys that deserve their shot and Woodley just fought Thompson to a draw and Maia deserves his shot ASAP.

p4p1 wrote:

Impractical Poster wrote:

p4p1 wrote:Khabib over Twitter just offered 200k of his own purse to Ferguson to make the fight. He's not effing around.

I saw that. Great play by Khabib! He is doing everything right to force a McGregor fight in the very near future. Ferguson is no easy task, and I believe him to be a tougher match-up for Khabib than Conor. But Nurmy still wins.

Great move from Khabib. He's really leaving Ferguson nowhere to go now other than to sign to fight him or look like a bitch and lose a chance at an immidiate shot once Conor is off of maternity leave. Business wise he spends 200k to guarantee(assuming he wins) a multi million dollar fight with Conor. He's doing all the right things to get his name out there and get on top.

I actually think it's sickening he has had to do this. This isn't the right thing, it's desperation. The UFC is Connors bitch.

Thank goodness it sounds like the UFC will NOT be using Jim Rome. It sounds like Todd Grisham will get the job.

punchoutsb wrote:Thank goodness it sounds like the UFC will NOT be using Jim Rome. It sounds like Todd Grisham will get the job.

It's going to be strange without Goldberg. Rogan is slowly fazing himself out. He currently only works PPVs in North America. Won't doubt if he totally hangs it up soon as well.

nfc90210 wrote:The idea that the talent in the division has dramatically increased in Rousey's absence, and as such has now passed her by, has gained traction. It's not though borne out by facts. For the most part the top 10 at 135 lbs is filled with people who were either beaten by Rousey or beaten by people who Rousey beat.

I agree, she beat a load of good fighters, we can't take that away from from her - Tate, Zingano, McMann.

I just think that she is not the fast-thinking competitor that she used to be. She has lost the mental edge.

p4p1 wrote:the HW contender mess(Werdum refusing to fight JDS, Cain injured, Miocic destroying Wedrum so no need for a quick rematch JDS losing not so long ago to Overeem)

Has to read this twice but why is Werdum refusing to fight Dos Santos?