BoxRec

Posted: **06 Feb 2011, 19:01**

Hi Martin,

I consider the system to be worse than the current one, but certainly nowhere near as retarded as the previous predictive attempt that would've had Shannon Briggs at #1 with one more tomato can win.

As probably with all predictive routines, it benefits fighters who have been repeatadly fighting stiffs. Tye Fields jumps 30 places in the new list up to 24, although we all know what a disaster he is. Also undefeated fighters get a big bonus. Robert Helenius jumps to number 5, although he hasn't really accomplished that much.

The worst thing about the new rankings is the numbers are all too close together. You have no idea of perspective anymore. Before you could see that the Klitschkos were dominating the division, now they just look like one of the bunch.

I don't like it. I prefer the current ratings. Practically all the queries about mad ratings have stopped. I imagine they'll return soon. But like I said, not as bad as last time.

conan

Posted: **06 Feb 2011, 19:03**

Good point on the bunching... Hadn't thought about that.

Posted: **12 Feb 2011, 15:42**

computerrank wrote:

MatthewS wrote:
JCS wrote: How do you make a good P4P system?
Q for you and computerrank i guess:

if everyone active retired tomorrow, and we used the all-time ratings to produce a p4p list - but only of the ones who were active - what would it look like?

... you won't be happy with this:

Code: Select all

+----------------+---------------+----------+
| first_name     | last_name     | r_at_act |
+----------------+---------------+----------+
| Bernard        | Hopkins       |     1259 |
| Roy            | Jones Jr      |     1126 |
| Floyd          | Mayweather Jr |     1124 |
| Evander        | Holyfield     |     1123 |
| Manny          | Pacquiao      |     1035 |
| Juan Manuel    | Marquez       |      944 |
| Shane          | Mosley        |      857 |
| Wladimir       | Klitschko     |      839 |
| Marco Antonio  | Barrera       |      772 |
| Rafael         | Marquez       |      666 |
| Antonio        | Tarver        |      584 |
| Erik           | Morales       |      493 |
| Vic            | Darchinyan    |      486 |
| Veeraphol      | Sahaprom      |      476 |
| Chris          | John          |      451 |
| Cory           | Spinks        |      443 |
| Vitali         | Klitschko     |      432 |
| Antonio        | Margarito     |      418 |
| Jose Luis      | Castillo      |      417 |
| Kelly          | Pavlik        |      417 |
| Pongsaklek     | Wonjongkam    |      388 |
| Sergio Gabriel | Martinez      |      382 |
| Glen           | Johnson       |      378 |
| Johnny         | Tapia         |      371 |
| Eric           | Morel         |      371 |
+----------------+---------------+----------+

you arent wrong... thats the all-time factor i guess...

Posted: **13 Feb 2011, 23:10**

I personally liked the results of the January 4(?) update, except I did see some inflation of segregated scenes as mentioned above. I think segregating those fighters and adjusting by comparison to other areas based on their average performance when they do step outside their local area would be a good solution, though obviously harder to implement than to suggest.

This doesn't really pertain to what's being discussed here, but one question I have is this: how do you decide what division to rate fighters in when it comes to a specific fight? It seems like there are lots of fights where for instance one guy is 169 and the other is 170 (like Dyah Davis-Francisco Sierra) and yet the fight is listed on both boxers' page as a super middleweight bout, and their beginning and ending ratings are set accordingly. I know both guys are, subjectively speaking, super middleweights, but on that night they were both technically light heavyweights. The implementation seems inconsistent, and I was just wondering how this is decided. I've even seen a fight that was listed as cruiserweight when one guy was a super middleweight and the other was a small light heavyweight: http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_ ... &cat=boxer. This one I especially don't get. I reported it as an error on that forum, but instead they explained to me that it was right, though I still didn't get it.

I also have one minor suggestion- assuming it is not already part of the system: when one guy is over the divisional weight limit for the fight (ie Shane Mosley comes in at 154 and Sergio Mora comes in at 157), the guy who misses the weight should get penalized for this somehow or other, while the guy who makes the weight should get bonus points for winning/drawing and suffer less if he loses. Maybe that is already the case, though...I don't know.

Posted: **14 Feb 2011, 09:00**

marcianofan wrote:I personally liked the results of the January 4(?) update, except I did see some inflation of segregated scenes as mentioned above. I think segregating those fighters and adjusting by comparison to other areas based on their average performance when they do step outside their local area would be a good solution, though obviously harder to implement than to suggest.

This doesn't really pertain to what's being discussed here, but one question I have is this: how do you decide what division to rate fighters in when it comes to a specific fight? It seems like there are lots of fights where for instance one guy is 169 and the other is 170 (like Dyah Davis-Francisco Sierra) and yet the fight is listed on both boxers' page as a super middleweight bout, and their beginning and ending ratings are set accordingly. I know both guys are, subjectively speaking, super middleweights, but on that night they were both technically light heavyweights. The implementation seems inconsistent, and I was just wondering how this is decided. I've even seen a fight that was listed as cruiserweight when one guy was a super middleweight and the other was a small light heavyweight: http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_ ... &cat=boxer. This one I especially don't get. I reported it as an error on that forum, but instead they explained to me that it was right, though I still didn't get it.

I also have one minor suggestion- assuming it is not already part of the system: when one guy is over the divisional weight limit for the fight (ie Shane Mosley comes in at 154 and Sergio Mora comes in at 157), the guy who misses the weight should get penalized for this somehow or other, while the guy who makes the weight should get bonus points for winning/drawing and suffer less if he loses. Maybe that is already the case, though...I don't know.

How do you decide, what division to rate fighters in, when it comes to a specific fight?

- the bouts are assigned to a division during the rating process
-- to the division, the editor assigned to the bout - the opponent division in the rating process table is updated too
-- if not, to the higher opponent division, regarding the rating process table
-- if not, no division is assigned

-- weights are not regarded so far

Rating penalty for missing the weight?

Might be we should better use the effective weight difference - and reduce point wins then, say for more than a division gap. So penalty for 160 vs 154, but not for 157 vs 154 or even 155 vs 154.

-- but weights are not regarded so far

Posted: **14 Feb 2011, 09:05**

Martin,

I think the solution should always be.. do not penalize for slightly missing. Sometimes fighters allow a pound or two extra for a mid-level fight...

Posted: **14 Feb 2011, 21:54**

I noticed that the ratings appear to have been updated again today or maybe late yesterday. Is this still a work in progress, or can we anticipate the current system being stable for the near future?

Posted: **15 Feb 2011, 03:56**

marcianofan wrote:I noticed that the ratings appear to have been updated again today or maybe late yesterday. Is this still a work in progress, or can we anticipate the current system being stable for the near future?

The rating program has not been updated since Jan 4, 2011 ...

Posted: **15 Feb 2011, 14:30**

There has definitely been some minor changes to the numbers, though. A few days ago, Antonio Margartio's rating as of the start of the Pacquiao fight was over 500- 512 or 514, I think. But now it's showing that he was only at 496. Likewise, when he fought Roberto Garcia, Garcia's beginning rating was 212 a few days ago, but is now 186. I could list a lot of other examples, if you like.

Posted: **15 Feb 2011, 14:48**

whats the most points gained/lost in one fight?

Posted: **15 Feb 2011, 16:15**

marcianofan wrote:There has definitely been some minor changes to the numbers, though. A few days ago, Antonio Margartio's rating as of the start of the Pacquiao fight was over 500- 512 or 514, I think. But now it's showing that he was only at 496. Likewise, when he fought Roberto Garcia, Garcia's beginning rating was 212 a few days ago, but is now 186. I could list a lot of other examples, if you like.

This sounds strange.

My only explanation is, some bouts result details from the past were changed by the editors.

Please list some other examples, as detailed as possible - I will go into this.

Posted: **15 Feb 2011, 16:54**

MatthewS wrote:whats the most points gained/lost in one fight?

Code: Select all

+------------+--------------------+---------+--------------------+--------+----------+--------------------+------+
| date       | division           | bout_id | name_a             | result | decision | name_b             | win  |
+------------+--------------------+---------+--------------------+--------+----------+--------------------+------+
| 1970-12-03 | Welterweight       |   20618 | Jose Napoles       | L      | TKO      | Billy Backus       | 1928 |
| 1938-02-22 | Welterweight       |  132033 | Young Corbett III  | W      | PTS      | Fred Apostoli      | 1866 |
| 1963-12-07 | Middleweight       |   22027 | Dick Tiger         | L      | PTS      | Joey Giardello     | 1822 |
| 1955-09-21 | Heavyweight        |   19993 | Rocky Marciano     | W      | KO       | Archie Moore       | 1755 |
| 1951-07-10 | Middleweight       |   23531 | Sugar Ray Robinson | L      | PTS      | Randy Turpin       | 1745 |
| 1951-07-18 | Heavyweight        |   23158 | Ezzard Charles     | L      | KO       | Jersey Joe Walcott | 1672 |
| 1940-10-04 | Welterweight       |   16315 | Henry Armstrong    | L      | UD       | Fritzie Zivic      | 1620 |
| 1943-11-19 | Lightweight        |   60938 | Beau Jack          | W      | UD       | Bob Montgomery     | 1583 |
| 1940-05-10 | Lightweight        |   16103 | Lou Ambers         | L      | TKO      | Lew Jenkins        | 1544 |
| 1966-08-22 | Light Welterweight |   20598 | Jose Napoles       | L      | TKO      | LC Morgan          | 1543 |
+------------+--------------------+---------+--------------------+--------+----------+--------------------+------+

+------------+--------------+---------+--------------------+--------+----------+--------------------+-------+
| date       | division     | bout_id | name_a             | result | decision | name_b             | loss  |
+------------+--------------+---------+--------------------+--------+----------+--------------------+-------+
| 1955-09-21 | Heavyweight  |   19993 | Rocky Marciano     | W      | KO       | Archie Moore       | -1756 |
| 1951-07-10 | Middleweight |   23531 | Sugar Ray Robinson | L      | PTS      | Randy Turpin       | -1746 |
| 1951-07-18 | Heavyweight  |   23158 | Ezzard Charles     | L      | KO       | Jersey Joe Walcott | -1673 |
| 1940-10-04 | Welterweight |   16315 | Henry Armstrong    | L      | UD       | Fritzie Zivic      | -1621 |
| 1963-12-07 | Middleweight |   22027 | Dick Tiger         | L      | PTS      | Joey Giardello     | -1584 |
| 1943-11-19 | Lightweight  |   60938 | Beau Jack          | W      | UD       | Bob Montgomery     | -1583 |
| 1970-12-03 | Welterweight |   20618 | Jose Napoles       | L      | TKO      | Billy Backus       | -1574 |
| 1940-05-10 | Lightweight  |   16103 | Lou Ambers         | L      | TKO      | Lew Jenkins        | -1545 |
| 1938-11-18 | Welterweight |  132037 | Young Corbett III  | L      | TKO      | Fred Apostoli      | -1444 |
| 1938-02-22 | Welterweight |  132033 | Young Corbett III  | W      | PTS      | Fred Apostoli      | -1410 |
+------------+--------------+---------+--------------------+--------+----------+--------------------+-------+

Posted: **15 Feb 2011, 16:59**

On Shane Mosley's Record:
Sergio Mora's beginning rating a few days ago was 147, now 145
Ricardo Mayorga's was 333, now 326.
Fernando Vargas 7/06 was 340, now 332
Fernando Vargas 2/06 was 466, now 455

On Kermit Cintron's Record:
Paul Williams was 854, now 834
Alfredo Angulo was 509, now 501
Sergio Martinez was 520, now 505.

On Alfredo Angulo's Record:
Joachim Alcine was 387, now 375
Joel Julio was 204, now 198
Harry Joe Yorgey was 237, now 234
Gabriel Rosado was 176, now 173
Kermit Cintron was 412, now 394
Cosme Rivera was 109, now 107
Andrey Tsurkan was 325, now 316
Richard Gutierrez was 291, now 285
Ricardo Cortes was 230, now 229

I've got recent numbers that differ for (so far as I've looked) every significant opponent (rating over 105) of almost all junior middleweight fighters who have beaten such a fighter in the last 5 years and are currently active. I wrote them down over the past week or so because I was working on my own ratings for my blog, and literally every rating I've looked at has gone down slightly since maybe 2-3 days ago. I could probably give you lots of examples for other divisions, too, but I wrote them down not too long after 1/4, so they are not near as recent.

Posted: **15 Feb 2011, 17:06**

marcianofan wrote:On Shane Mosley's Record:
Sergio Mora's beginning rating a few days ago was 147, now 145
Ricardo Mayorga's was 333, now 326.
Fernando Vargas 7/06 was 340, now 332
Fernando Vargas 2/06 was 466, now 455

....

Thanks a lot ... I will look ...

Posted: **15 Feb 2011, 17:16**

computerrank wrote:

MatthewS wrote:whats the most points gained/lost in one fight?

Code: Select all

+------------+--------------------+---------+--------------------+--------+----------+--------------------+------+
| date       | division           | bout_id | name_a             | result | decision | name_b             | win  |
+------------+--------------------+---------+--------------------+--------+----------+--------------------+------+
| 1970-12-03 | Welterweight       |   20618 | Jose Napoles       | L      | TKO      | Billy Backus       | 1928 |
| 1938-02-22 | Welterweight       |  132033 | Young Corbett III  | W      | PTS      | Fred Apostoli      | 1866 |
| 1963-12-07 | Middleweight       |   22027 | Dick Tiger         | L      | PTS      | Joey Giardello     | 1822 |
| 1955-09-21 | Heavyweight        |   19993 | Rocky Marciano     | W      | KO       | Archie Moore       | 1755 |
| 1951-07-10 | Middleweight       |   23531 | Sugar Ray Robinson | L      | PTS      | Randy Turpin       | 1745 |
| 1951-07-18 | Heavyweight        |   23158 | Ezzard Charles     | L      | KO       | Jersey Joe Walcott | 1672 |
| 1940-10-04 | Welterweight       |   16315 | Henry Armstrong    | L      | UD       | Fritzie Zivic      | 1620 |
| 1943-11-19 | Lightweight        |   60938 | Beau Jack          | W      | UD       | Bob Montgomery     | 1583 |
| 1940-05-10 | Lightweight        |   16103 | Lou Ambers         | L      | TKO      | Lew Jenkins        | 1544 |
| 1966-08-22 | Light Welterweight |   20598 | Jose Napoles       | L      | TKO      | LC Morgan          | 1543 |
+------------+--------------------+---------+--------------------+--------+----------+--------------------+------+

+------------+--------------+---------+--------------------+--------+----------+--------------------+-------+
| date       | division     | bout_id | name_a             | result | decision | name_b             | loss  |
+------------+--------------+---------+--------------------+--------+----------+--------------------+-------+
| 1955-09-21 | Heavyweight  |   19993 | Rocky Marciano     | W      | KO       | Archie Moore       | -1756 |
| 1951-07-10 | Middleweight |   23531 | Sugar Ray Robinson | L      | PTS      | Randy Turpin       | -1746 |
| 1951-07-18 | Heavyweight  |   23158 | Ezzard Charles     | L      | KO       | Jersey Joe Walcott | -1673 |
| 1940-10-04 | Welterweight |   16315 | Henry Armstrong    | L      | UD       | Fritzie Zivic      | -1621 |
| 1963-12-07 | Middleweight |   22027 | Dick Tiger         | L      | PTS      | Joey Giardello     | -1584 |
| 1943-11-19 | Lightweight  |   60938 | Beau Jack          | W      | UD       | Bob Montgomery     | -1583 |
| 1970-12-03 | Welterweight |   20618 | Jose Napoles       | L      | TKO      | Billy Backus       | -1574 |
| 1940-05-10 | Lightweight  |   16103 | Lou Ambers         | L      | TKO      | Lew Jenkins        | -1545 |
| 1938-11-18 | Welterweight |  132037 | Young Corbett III  | L      | TKO      | Fred Apostoli      | -1444 |
| 1938-02-22 | Welterweight |  132033 | Young Corbett III  | W      | PTS      | Fred Apostoli      | -1410 |
+------------+--------------+---------+--------------------+--------+----------+--------------------+-------+

Wow... no Tyson-Douglas, i am not overly shocked that they are all old fights tho

Posted: **15 Feb 2011, 17:40**

MatthewS wrote:
....

Wow... no Tyson-Douglas, i am not overly shocked that they are all old fights tho

... same restricted to bouts after 1980 ... now you will find Tyson vs Douglas ...

Code: Select all

+------------+--------------------+---------+----------------------+--------+----------+-----------------------+------+
| date       | division           | bout_id | name_a               | result | decision | name_b                | win  |
+------------+--------------------+---------+----------------------+--------+----------+-----------------------+------+
| 1987-04-06 | Middleweight       |   15237 | Sugar Ray Leonard    | W      | SD       | Marvin Hagler         | 1494 |
| 1991-05-10 | Middleweight       |    5174 | Michael Nunn         | L      | TKO      | James Toney           |  968 |
| 1988-06-06 | Middleweight       |    2854 | Thomas Hearns        | L      | TKO      | Iran Barkley          |  925 |
| 2008-10-11 | Heavyweight        | 1335062 | Samuel Peter         | L      | RTD      | Vitali Klitschko      |  925 |
| 1990-02-11 | Heavyweight        |    4072 | Mike Tyson           | L      | KO       | James Buster Douglas  |  821 |
| 1981-12-19 | Light Heavyweight  |   15363 | Dwight Muhammad Qawi | W      | TKO      | Matthew Saad Muhammad |  811 |
| 1993-12-18 | Light Middleweight |    7906 | Terry Norris         | L      | KO       | Simon Brown           |  763 |
| 1986-09-27 | Welterweight       |    2118 | Donald Curry         | L      | RTD      | Lloyd Honeyghan       |  727 |
| 1980-09-27 | Middleweight       |   23306 | Marvin Hagler        | W      | TKO      | Alan Minter           |  721 |
| 1994-11-12 | Light Middleweight |    8913 | Terry Norris         | L      | DQ       | Luis Santana          |  699 |
+------------+--------------------+---------+----------------------+--------+----------+-----------------------+------+

+------------+--------------------+---------+----------------------+--------+----------+-----------------------+------+
| date       | division           | bout_id | name_a               | result | decision | name_b                | loss |
+------------+--------------------+---------+----------------------+--------+----------+-----------------------+------+
| 1981-12-19 | Light Heavyweight  |   15363 | Dwight Muhammad Qawi | W      | TKO      | Matthew Saad Muhammad | -812 |
| 1991-05-10 | Middleweight       |    5174 | Michael Nunn         | L      | TKO      | James Toney           | -776 |
| 1986-09-27 | Welterweight       |    2118 | Donald Curry         | L      | RTD      | Lloyd Honeyghan       | -728 |
| 1980-09-27 | Middleweight       |   23306 | Marvin Hagler        | W      | TKO      | Alan Minter           | -722 |
| 1988-06-06 | Middleweight       |    2854 | Thomas Hearns        | L      | TKO      | Iran Barkley          | -718 |
| 1994-11-12 | Light Middleweight |    8913 | Terry Norris         | L      | DQ       | Luis Santana          | -680 |
| 1980-11-25 | Welterweight       |     598 | Sugar Ray Leonard    | W      | TKO      | Roberto Duran         | -678 |
| 1987-04-06 | Middleweight       |   15237 | Sugar Ray Leonard    | W      | SD       | Marvin Hagler         | -674 |
| 1990-02-11 | Heavyweight        |    4072 | Mike Tyson           | L      | KO       | James Buster Douglas  | -641 |
| 2001-09-29 | Middleweight       |  179603 | Felix Trinidad       | L      | TKO      | Bernard Hopkins       | -630 |
+------------+--------------------+---------+----------------------+--------+----------+-----------------------+------+

Posted: **15 Feb 2011, 17:43**

Posted: **24 Feb 2011, 18:12**

computerrank wrote:
marcianofan wrote:On Shane Mosley's Record:
Sergio Mora's beginning rating a few days ago was 147, now 145
Ricardo Mayorga's was 333, now 326.
Fernando Vargas 7/06 was 340, now 332
Fernando Vargas 2/06 was 466, now 455

....
Thanks a lot ... I will look ...

Any updates on this?

Posted: **25 Feb 2011, 05:50**

marcianofan wrote:
computerrank wrote:
marcianofan wrote:On Shane Mosley's Record:
Sergio Mora's beginning rating a few days ago was 147, now 145
Ricardo Mayorga's was 333, now 326.
Fernando Vargas 7/06 was 340, now 332
Fernando Vargas 2/06 was 466, now 455

....
Thanks a lot ... I will look ...
Any updates on this?

I have absolutely no idea, how this happens.

I have saved the current state of all bouts and all boxer entries as of Feb 24.

I ask you to look for any such rating reductions of past bouts during the next days and to report your results to me, please.

I then will run the rating program with the saved data too - and analyze any differences.

Posted: **26 Feb 2011, 03:46**

you know when we have these little trivia things on here like linking boxers to one another through opponents and suchlike...

if, say, back in 1924, a bout was recorded on here as PTS but was actually a KO, when thats changed, it changes the points, yes? Does that change cascade through the records of everyone that boxer fought after that fight, and so on throughout the database?

Posted: **26 Feb 2011, 09:20**

You are basically right, MatthewS.

But I don't think such changes will explain the quite massive changes, marcioanofan reported.

Posted: **06 Mar 2011, 10:45**

Question:

When Wlad and Haye fight, assuming their points totals dont change, how will that sit against the pre-fight combined totals of other big historical fights, HW or otherwise, Title or non-title?

Posted: **07 Mar 2011, 05:47**

... not impressing ...

Wladimir Klitschko 1268 vs David Haye 739 -> 2007 = rank 569

Code: Select all

+------+------------+-------------+------------+-----------+------+--------+------------+-----------+------+-------+
| rank | date       | division    | first_name | last_name | r_a  | result | first_name | last_name | r_b  | r_sum |
+------+------------+-------------+------------+-----------+------+--------+------------+-----------+------+-------+
|    1 | 1955-09-21 | Heavyweight | Rocky      | Marciano  | 4622 | W      | Archie     | Moore     | 5104 |  9726 |
|    2 | 1941-09-29 | Heavyweight | Joe        | Louis     | 5196 | W      | Lou        | Nova      | 1840 |  7037 |
|    3 | 1939-09-20 | Heavyweight | Joe        | Louis     | 5084 | W      | Bob        | Pastor    | 1869 |  6954 |
|    4 | 1939-01-25 | Heavyweight | Joe        | Louis     | 4352 | W      | John Henry | Lewis     | 2504 |  6856 |
|    5 | 1942-01-09 | Heavyweight | Joe        | Louis     | 5437 | W      | Buddy      | Baer      | 1241 |  6678 |
|    6 | 1939-06-28 | Heavyweight | Joe        | Louis     | 4981 | W      | Tony       | Galento   | 1645 |  6627 |
|    7 | 1954-06-17 | Heavyweight | Ezzard     | Charles   | 1932 | L      | Rocky      | Marciano  | 4318 |  6250 |
|    8 | 1954-09-17 | Heavyweight | Ezzard     | Charles   | 2007 | L      | Rocky      | Marciano  | 4242 |  6250 |
|    9 | 1955-05-16 | Heavyweight | Rocky      | Marciano  | 4491 | W      | Don        | Cockell   | 1712 |  6203 |
|   10 | 1942-03-27 | Heavyweight | Joe        | Louis     | 5437 | W      | Abe        | Simon     |  654 |  6091 |
|   11 | 1938-06-22 | Heavyweight | Joe        | Louis     | 3737 | W      | Max        | Schmeling | 2317 |  6054 |
|   12 | 1952-09-23 | Heavyweight | Rocky      | Marciano  | 2817 | W      | Jersey Joe | Walcott   | 3188 |  6005 |
|   13 | 1953-05-15 | Heavyweight | Rocky      | Marciano  | 3921 | W      | Jersey Joe | Walcott   | 2084 |  6005 |
|   14 | 1952-06-05 | Heavyweight | Ezzard     | Charles   | 3095 | L      | Jersey Joe | Walcott   | 2848 |  5943 |
|   15 | 1939-04-17 | Heavyweight | Joe        | Louis     | 4981 | W      | Jack       | Roper     |  893 |  5875 |
|   16 | 1940-02-09 | Heavyweight | Joe        | Louis     | 5217 | W      | Arturo     | Godoy     |  616 |  5834 |
|   17 | 1940-06-20 | Heavyweight | Joe        | Louis     | 4365 | W      | Arturo     | Godoy     | 1468 |  5834 |
|   18 | 1936-06-19 | Heavyweight | Joe        | Louis     | 3501 | L      | Max        | Schmeling | 2198 |  5699 |
|   19 | 1953-09-24 | Heavyweight | Rocky      | Marciano  | 4411 | W      | Roland     | LaStarza  | 1230 |  5642 |
|   20 | 1934-06-14 | Heavyweight | Max        | Baer      | 2709 | W      | Primo      | Carnera   | 2866 |  5575 |
|   21 | 1941-05-23 | Heavyweight | Joe        | Louis     | 4136 | W      | Buddy      | Baer      | 1314 |  5450 |
|   22 | 1965-11-22 | Heavyweight | Floyd      | Patterson | 1535 | L      | Muhammad   | Ali       | 3862 |  5398 |
|   23 | 1956-11-30 | Heavyweight | Archie     | Moore     | 3445 | L      | Floyd      | Patterson | 1926 |  5371 |
|   24 | 1964-02-25 | Heavyweight | Sonny      | Liston    | 3184 | L      | Muhammad   | Ali       | 2166 |  5350 |
|   25 | 1965-05-25 | Heavyweight | Sonny      | Liston    | 2009 | L      | Muhammad   | Ali       | 3340 |  5350 |
+------+------------+-------------+------------+-----------+------+--------+------------+-----------+------+-------+

Posted: **07 Mar 2011, 09:52**

I'm sure the fight would rank a lot higher if you considered the current divisional strength and normalized.

Unlike MatthewS, I won't ask you to do that.

Posted: **07 Mar 2011, 19:51**

JCS wrote:I'm sure the fight would rank a lot higher if you considered the current divisional strength and normalized.

Unlike MatthewS, I won't ask you to do that.

no doubt - but also no surprise and questionable too

this simply means, that the scheduled bout is on top of the current options

but the relative competition level is low today in terms of regular and frequent pairings on top level - compared with the golden age of 1935 to 1965

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