BoxRec

The subject of Howard Davis bring back a memory of his bout with Norman Goins. As I recall, Goins floored Davis twice, but got a raw deal in the scoring even the bout was taking place in his hometown.

- Chuck Johnston

Norman Goins reminds me of Sammy Nesmith: he was a little erratic but when he was firing he was firing.

Rick Farris wrote:

kikibalt wrote:I'll never forget the way Tony set-up Howard Davis in the 5th round for his hook, a straight jab to the stomach and a short hook to the jaw and Davis went down like a ton of bricks, BUT, the son of gun got up, not too many got up when Tony hit'em with a hook like that one. Lots of credit to Davis....

Frank . . . You have been in boxing longer than I, so maybe you can help.
Tony Baltazar drops Howard Davis twice (once in two different rounds).
Now on the ten point must system, a fighter generally scores at min. of two points for a knockdown round.

Now I thought Tony had outscored Davis completely after ten rounds, but maybe I'm not as knowledable as judges.
However, I was pretty good at math. If Tony scored two-two point rounds, how is it on the scorecards of one of the judges, all Tony could muster was a total of tw points for the entire ten rounds?
I see four points for the knockdowns, even if Tony spent the rest of the fight sitting in his corner sipping a Corona?

t just occured to me, this sport of boxing maybe a little on the dishonest side?


-Rick Farris

Rick....At the time of the Davis, the fights in N.J were score on the round system. After watching the fight on tape I had Tony winning 6 round to 4, how one judge only gave Tony 2 rounds is beyond me.
At the post fight press conference, a reporter asked Tony how he felt about not getting the decision, Tony answer him by saying "I thought I won a close fight, not getting the decision ?, well, I'm a long way from home".

Chuck1052 wrote:The subject of Howard Davis bring back a memory of his bout with Norman Goins. As I recall, Goins floored Davis twice, but got a raw deal in the scoring even the bout was taking place in his hometown.

- Chuck Johnston

Yes, but didn't Goins go down too?

WHO SAID WHAT WHERE?

Sporting events, if not filmed, can cause controversy as time goes on, especially if witnesses to the events are no longer around.But witnesses can have a biased eyesight. The sport of boxing is a good example of getting two sides of a story. Remember this a sport where two guys are putting their hands on each other in a very malicious way. Someone who once said"mean intentions" hit it on the nose,literally.

Did Langford hold his own against Johnson, or to hear it from Jack, he merely toyed with Sam? Jack Britton and Benny Leonard. Was Leonard so bored he fouled Jack because he wasn't interested in wearing the Welter Belt? Or was Jack ahead in the fight so Benny instead of seeing Jack getting his hand raised after 15 hit him when he was down? Was the punch below the belt or proper? Tom Sharkey and Jeff waged a war. Depending which paper you read and who you heard it from...well it's not really clear who ACTUALLY won. The record book says the Boilermaker. And how would you have loved to put a spy cam in Dempsey's locker room in Toledo?

That's why we post about such things. We go back and forth. It's a healthy banter on this thread. We love each other too much to hit below the belt.

dagosd2000 wrote:WHO SAID WHAT WHERE?

Sporting events, if not filmed, can cause controversy as time goes on, especially if witnesses to the events are no longer around.But witnesses can have a biased eyesight. The sport of boxing is a good example of getting two sides of a story. Remember this a sport where two guys are putting their hands on each other in a very malicious way. Someone who once said"mean intentions" hit it on the nose,literally.

Did Langford hold his own against Johnson, or to hear it from Jack, he merely toyed with Sam? Jack Britton and Benny Leonard. Was Leonard so bored he fouled Jack because he wasn't interested in wearing the Welter Belt? Or was Jack ahead in the fight so Benny instead of seeing Jack getting his hand raised after 15 hit him when he was down? Was the punch below the belt or proper? Tom Sharkey and Jeff waged a war. Depending which paper you read and who you heard it from...well it's not really clear who ACTUALLY won. The record book says the Boilermaker. And how would you have loved to put a spy cam in Dempsey's locker room in Toledo?

That's why we post about such things. We go back and forth. It's a healthy banter on this thread. We love each other too much to hit below the belt.

I'm not really that biased but I still think Duran should have got at least a draw with Hearns. I knew that as soon as Hearns knocked out Duran that they were going to use that as an excuse to give the fight to Hearns. No, I'm not biased, not in the least.

Randy

Tony Baltazar vs Howard Davis (piece on the scoring of the fight)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbU_jWmIDZ8

kikibalt wrote:Tony Baltazar vs Howard Davis (piece on the scoring of the fight)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbU_jWmIDZ8

Payola?

Joe Louis(for me, the most interesting subject to paint in the world of boxing)

Frank, you're right....Goins was knocked down in the bout with Howard Davis. But I still thought that the scoring in the bout was a bit unfair.

- Chuck Johnston

dagosd2000 wrote:

Joe Louis(for me, the most interesting subject to paint in the world of boxing)

Another one!

bennie wrote:Norman Goins reminds me of Sammy Nesmith: he was a little erratic but when he was firing he was firing.

I remember Sammy Nesmith well Bennie.
Your description of him is right on. He could bang. He was popular in the midwest for awhile there.
He and I even have a common opponent Terrence Wright. He belted him out in 5 rounds. I fought a draw with him.
The guys record was not good but I had a toughtime. Makes me feel a little better that he fought such tough guys before me. He fought Gerald McClellan right before we fought also.
Funny how we can find silver linings in boxing.

Pinklon Thomas was another fighter who had a good jab.

- Chuck Johnston

Randyman wrote:

dagosd2000 wrote:WHO SAID WHAT WHERE?

Sporting events, if not filmed, can cause controversy as time goes on, especially if witnesses to the events are no longer around.But witnesses can have a biased eyesight. The sport of boxing is a good example of getting two sides of a story. Remember this a sport where two guys are putting their hands on each other in a very malicious way. Someone who once said"mean intentions" hit it on the nose,literally.

Did Langford hold his own against Johnson, or to hear it from Jack, he merely toyed with Sam? Jack Britton and Benny Leonard. Was Leonard so bored he fouled Jack because he wasn't interested in wearing the Welter Belt? Or was Jack ahead in the fight so Benny instead of seeing Jack getting his hand raised after 15 hit him when he was down? Was the punch below the belt or proper? Tom Sharkey and Jeff waged a war. Depending which paper you read and who you heard it from...well it's not really clear who ACTUALLY won. The record book says the Boilermaker. And how would you have loved to put a spy cam in Dempsey's locker room in Toledo?

That's why we post about such things. We go back and forth. It's a healthy banter on this thread. We love each other too much to hit below the belt.

I'm not really that biased but I still think Duran should have got at least a draw with Hearns. I knew that as soon as Hearns knocked out Duran that they were going to use that as an excuse to give the fight to Hearns. No, I'm not biased, not in the least.

Randy

Randy . . . I seem to remember Duran slipping, or something like that, but like you can't see him deserving less than a draw.
The KO? Well, it was the first time Duran was ever KOed, so it really shouldn't count. The draw seems fair to me.
After all, it's Duran.


-Rick

The Cat . . .

I first saw him in the mid-sixties. He fought at the Olympic, watched him on channel 5.
He'd disappear for awhile. Kind of strange because he was one of the bright stars of a new era.
There was Jerry Quarry, Mando Ramos, Ernie Lopez, Frankie Crawford, Ruben Navarro, Raul Rojas, Rodolfo Gonzalez and a few others.

Rodolfo Gonzalez went away for awhile, then came back a power house. I never knew him as "El Gato".
They may have called him that below the border, but in L.A. prior to his winning the title, he was known as Rodolfo Gonzalez.
Rodolfo had this aura of power. It was never more evident than in his second victory over my stablemate, Ruben Navarro.

Watching Rodolfo's early 70's destruction of WBC Lightweight Champ, Chango Carmona, on DVD thirty years after it took place in Los Angeles, I finally saw how he'd been tagged "El Gato" below the border.
The challenger, a solid 3-to-1 underdog ripped the title away from Carmona, and it did it easily and at will.
Rodolfo was told in the corner to "carry Carmona", entertain the fans before finally lowering the boom.
He did just that, after jabbing, hooking, uppercutting, digging to the body and head,the battered champion retired on his stool.
Cat and Mouse. Plain and simple, "El Gato" is appropriate.

Chango, just a few months earlier was a lion destroying Mando Ramos for the title.
He became a mouse when facing Rodolfo, and from that day on would never be the same.


-Rick Farris

Rick Farris wrote:

Randyman wrote:

dagosd2000 wrote:WHO SAID WHAT WHERE?

Sporting events, if not filmed, can cause controversy as time goes on, especially if witnesses to the events are no longer around.But witnesses can have a biased eyesight. The sport of boxing is a good example of getting two sides of a story. Remember this a sport where two guys are putting their hands on each other in a very malicious way. Someone who once said"mean intentions" hit it on the nose,literally.

Did Langford hold his own against Johnson, or to hear it from Jack, he merely toyed with Sam? Jack Britton and Benny Leonard. Was Leonard so bored he fouled Jack because he wasn't interested in wearing the Welter Belt? Or was Jack ahead in the fight so Benny instead of seeing Jack getting his hand raised after 15 hit him when he was down? Was the punch below the belt or proper? Tom Sharkey and Jeff waged a war. Depending which paper you read and who you heard it from...well it's not really clear who ACTUALLY won. The record book says the Boilermaker. And how would you have loved to put a spy cam in Dempsey's locker room in Toledo?

That's why we post about such things. We go back and forth. It's a healthy banter on this thread. We love each other too much to hit below the belt.

I'm not really that biased but I still think Duran should have got at least a draw with Hearns. I knew that as soon as Hearns knocked out Duran that they were going to use that as an excuse to give the fight to Hearns. No, I'm not biased, not in the least.

Randy

Randy . . . I seem to remember Duran slipping, or something like that, but like you can't see him deserving less than a draw.
The KO? Well, it was the first time Duran was ever KOed, so it really shouldn't count. The draw seems fair to me.
After all, it's Duran.


-Rick

Rick and Randy
Watching ESPN Classic they had a segment on the Duran/ Hearns fight. Emmanuel Stewart said that when the two fighters signed for the fight, Duran was trying to intimidate Tommy with that macho bulls--t. The hard looks. The snears. The contempt in the voice.

Stewart said it seemed to go right by Hearns. Like he didn't understand what Duran was trying to convey. When Duran saw that Hearns didn't "get it",Roberto seemed like the one that got psyched out. Hearns reminded me a lot of Joe Frazier. I want to say that those two were very basic. They didn't use nor did they realize when psychology was being used on them.Ray Leonard and Muhammad Ali,their counterparts,were masters at mind games.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-Ipn_Y3iNM

Hearns/Duran

Given our penchant for the old days, and our belief that things were much better back then, I thought you might enjoy this song by Merle Haggard "Are the Good Times Really Over?" Dedicated to Classic American West Coast Boxing and Mel Epstein.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qe_aJnQPPi8

Randy

Rick,

I would like to explain to you and to all the readers how the name "El Gato" came to be.

In the early 60's fighting in Guadalajara, the people at my fights would scream come on Gato knock him out. I don't really know who started it but one by one more people started calling me El Gato in Mexico.

When I came into the United States on Feb. 15, 1963 to fight Licho Guerrero that was fight number 53 for me and my first loss (not to mention that my manager gave me only $27.00 for a 10 round fight). A couple of days later my uncle Frank took me to his wrecking yard on Slauson Ave. in Los Angeles and this is where I met a man in his early 30's who had seen me fight many times in Guadalajara. His name was Enrique Vargas. He told me he heard many people call me El Gato and complimented me on my style --you fight like a cat playing with a mouse. He told me that I should name myself Rodolfo "Gato" Gonzalez. It would be good for publicity.

However, I stopped my boxing career at this point due to my liver illness. You all know the next two and a half years of my life. Later, when I started fighting again I kept telling my managers that I wanted my name to be El Gato, but none of my managers seemed to care. Articles of my fights would come out in Mexico in the late 60's and early 70's and the newspapers would have my name as Rodolfo "Gato" Gonzalez. I have a colored photo of me wearing my championship belt with my complete name that came out in the centerfold of one of the most popular newspapers from Mexico City that was sold throughout Latin America called ESTO.. Many other magazines in Mexico also placed me on the front cover with my name as Rodolfo "Gato" Gonzalez.

Rick, after I became a champion I know there are a few publications in the U.S. that referred to me as El Gato. I believe one of them was called KnockOut Magazine and they had me on the front cover. Today I am known more than ever by that name due to you , Dan and Barbara promoting me.

El Gato

Randyman wrote:Given our penchant for the old days, and our belief that things were much better back then, I thought you might enjoy this song by Merle Haggard "Are the Good Times Really Over?" Dedicated to Classic American West Coast Boxing and Mel Epstein.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qe_aJnQPPi8

Randy

FATHER'S DAY

Rick,Randy,Frank,Brian,Hap,Gato...all the dads out there on the thread and everywhere.Yeah,we get a little sentimental. I was with my 'ol pal Jose Cuervo last night and felt like Merle Haggard singing that song. We know about the good times back in the good days. Maybe our fathers would be steeped in those moments even more.

But they can't be over. For us dads the good times have to keep going. We've got children and grandchildren and for a few of us, great grandchildren. If the good times are over that means it's over for them. No way I can let that happen on my watch. I see my little ones and I know why I'm still breathing. It's going to be good times for them too. Even if it kills me. And I hope that's what finally takes my last breath away.

dagosd2000 wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-Ipn_Y3iNM

Hearns/Duran

Rog, this fight has always been painful for me to watch. This and Duran v Leonard II are difficult for me. Hearns was at the top of his game that night. This is the fight that convinced Hearns and his people that they could beat Marvin Hagler and maybe on another night he might have beaten him but on the night they fought, Hagler was too much for Hearns plus he was spurred on by the cut. he was afraid the fight might be stopped and it might have. He took matters into his own hands and gave us a classic, both of them did.

Even with his losses and the flaws in his career Roberto Duran is my favorite fighter. Leonard, Hagler and Hearns got him past his best. Duran, a natural lightweight took on the Welters and Middleweights and did pretty damned good all things considered. As far as I'm concerned he's right there with Robinson as the greatest fighter that ever lived. As a lightweight maybe he was the very best. As good as Manny Paquiao seems to be, there is no Leonard, Hagler or Hearns on his resume or in his future. Duran was special.

Randy

dagosd2000 wrote:

Randyman wrote:Given our penchant for the old days, and our belief that things were much better back then, I thought you might enjoy this song by Merle Haggard "Are the Good Times Really Over?" Dedicated to Classic American West Coast Boxing and Mel Epstein.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qe_aJnQPPi8

Randy

FATHER'S DAY

Rick,Randy,Frank,Brian,Hap,Gato...all the dads out there on the thread and everywhere.Yeah,we get a little sentimental. I was with my 'ol pal Jose Cuervo last night and felt like Merle Haggard singing that song. We know about the good times back in the good days. Maybe our fathers would be steeped in those moments even more.

But they can't be over. For us dads the good times have to keep going. We've got children and grandchildren and for a few of us, great grandchildren. If the good times are over that means it's over for them. No way I can let that happen on my watch. I see my little ones and I know why I'm still breathing. It's going to be good times for them too. Even if it kills me. And I hope that's what finally takes my last breath away.

I'll be right there by your side Rog. We won't let it happen. Haggard was giving us a wake up call.

Randyman wrote:

dagosd2000 wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-Ipn_Y3iNM

Hearns/Duran

Rog, this fight has always been painful for me to watch. This and Duran v Leonard II are difficult for me. Hearns was at the top of his game that night. This is the fight that convinced Hearns and his people that they could beat Marvin Hagler and maybe on another night he might have beaten him but on the night they fought, Hagler was too much for Hearns plus he was spurred on by the cut. he was afraid the fight might be stopped and it might have. He took matters into his own hands and gave us a classic, both of them did.

Even with his losses and the flaws in his career Roberto Duran is my favorite fighter. Leonard, Hagler and Hearns got him past his best. Duran, a natural lightweight took on the Welters and Middleweights and did pretty damned good all things considered. As far as I'm concerned he's right there with Robinson as the greatest fighter that ever lived. As a lightweight maybe he was the very best. As good as Manny Paquiao seems to be, there is no Leonard, Hagler or Hearns on his resume or in his future. Duran was special.

Randy

Randy
Didn't mean to make you wince with that one. I'll tell you what,Mantequilla Napoles was my favorite. Here's one that I wish would go away. Rog


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvpZ-oUbVmU

John Stracey/Jose Napoles

Randyman wrote:

dagosd2000 wrote:

Randyman wrote:Given our penchant for the old days, and our belief that things were much better back then, I thought you might enjoy this song by Merle Haggard "Are the Good Times Really Over?" Dedicated to Classic American West Coast Boxing and Mel Epstein.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qe_aJnQPPi8

Randy

FATHER'S DAY

Rick,Randy,Frank,Brian,Hap,Gato...all the dads out there on the thread and everywhere.Yeah,we get a little sentimental. I was with my 'ol pal Jose Cuervo last night and felt like Merle Haggard singing that song. We know about the good times back in the good days. Maybe our fathers would be steeped in those moments even more.

But they can't be over. For us dads the good times have to keep going. We've got children and grandchildren and for a few of us, great grandchildren. If the good times are over that means it's over for them. No way I can let that happen on my watch. I see my little ones and I know why I'm still breathing. It's going to be good times for them too. Even if it kills me. And I hope that's what finally takes my last breath away.

I'll be right there by your side Rog. We won't let it happen. Haggard was giving us a wake up call.

Count me in with you guys.

Merle Haggards one of my favorites also.

dagosd2000 wrote:

Randyman wrote:

dagosd2000 wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-Ipn_Y3iNM

Hearns/Duran

Rog, this fight has always been painful for me to watch. This and Duran v Leonard II are difficult for me. Hearns was at the top of his game that night. This is the fight that convinced Hearns and his people that they could beat Marvin Hagler and maybe on another night he might have beaten him but on the night they fought, Hagler was too much for Hearns plus he was spurred on by the cut. he was afraid the fight might be stopped and it might have. He took matters into his own hands and gave us a classic, both of them did.

Even with his losses and the flaws in his career Roberto Duran is my favorite fighter. Leonard, Hagler and Hearns got him past his best. Duran, a natural lightweight took on the Welters and Middleweights and did pretty damned good all things considered. As far as I'm concerned he's right there with Robinson as the greatest fighter that ever lived. As a lightweight maybe he was the very best. As good as Manny Paquiao seems to be, there is no Leonard, Hagler or Hearns on his resume or in his future. Duran was special.

Randy

Randy
Didn't mean to make you wince with that one. I'll tell you what,Mantequilla Napoles was my favorite. Here's one that I wish would go away. Rog


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvpZ-oUbVmU

John Stracey/Jose Napoles

Boxing (and life, in many ways) is all about timing. The great Napoles was fading and the underrated Stracey was peaking (in fact, he peaked right on the night and should not really be judged on his subsequent fights; I think the Mexico effort took a lot out of him). Mickey Duff gambled on giving away home turf to get to Napoles and Stracey came through in style. He became a national hero overnight. He was even doing TV adverts plugging British beef. Napoles showed class to the end by immediately walking away.