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Re: Joe Calzaghe : Has Froch's leagacy now overtaken Joe's ?
Posted: 29 May 2013, 06:18
by hurlock
Pudwill,jiminez,sobot,etc. these are not worthy contenders.
Washed up brewer war.
Robin Reid disputable victory with no rematch.
Years of in jury's & facing low ranked opposition.
Re: Joe Calzaghe : Has Froch's leagacy now overtaken Joe's ?
Posted: 29 May 2013, 07:13
by SamWise72
Jones fought the best for a couple of years though at least. He faced Toney and Hopkins at the right time. I think most people knock him, once again, as having avoided some of the most exciting bouts, but at least he fought more of them than Calzaghe.
Re: Joe Calzaghe : Has Froch's leagacy now overtaken Joe's ?
Posted: 29 May 2013, 12:38
by rio
The reason i can not rank froch legacy over calzaghe is that never in froch carear was he no 1 in the division whioe joe was no1 in both sm and lh division. I think but joe beats froch....froch has fought the better fighters...but froch was never no1 and was was undisputed no1 like ward is now and nobody will say froch legacy is better than wards.
Re: Joe Calzaghe : Has Froch's leagacy now overtaken Joe's ?
Posted: 29 May 2013, 12:46
by lillywhite14
rio wrote:The reason i can not rank froch legacy over calzaghe is that never in froch carear was he no 1 in the division whioe joe was no1 in both sm and lh division. I think but joe beats froch....froch has fought the better fighters...but froch was never no1 and was was undisputed no1 like ward is now and nobody will say froch legacy is better than wards.
Wards legacy is better than Calzaghe's too though. By a distance.
Re: Joe Calzaghe : Has Froch's leagacy now overtaken Joe's ?
Posted: 29 May 2013, 13:09
by Final round
lillywhite14 wrote:rio wrote:The reason i can not rank froch legacy over calzaghe is that never in froch carear was he no 1 in the division whioe joe was no1 in both sm and lh division. I think but joe beats froch....froch has fought the better fighters...but froch was never no1 and was was undisputed no1 like ward is now and nobody will say froch legacy is better than wards.
Wards legacy is better than Calzaghe's too though. By a distance.
Why? Miranda, Pudwill, Kessler, Green, Bika, Abraham, Froch and defended against LHW Dawson at SMW.
That record doesn't scream out as been better by a distance. Ward's best win is Kessler or Froch?
Re: Joe Calzaghe : Has Froch's leagacy now overtaken Joe's ?
Posted: 29 May 2013, 13:35
by NazNaci1
lillywhite14 wrote:rio wrote:The reason i can not rank froch legacy over calzaghe is that never in froch carear was he no 1 in the division whioe joe was no1 in both sm and lh division. I think but joe beats froch....froch has fought the better fighters...but froch was never no1 and was was undisputed no1 like ward is now and nobody will say froch legacy is better than wards.
Wards legacy is better than Calzaghe's too though. By a distance.
Excellent point, mate. It is better, by some distance.
Re: Joe Calzaghe : Has Froch's leagacy now overtaken Joe's ?
Posted: 29 May 2013, 13:45
by lillywhite14
Final round wrote:lillywhite14 wrote:rio wrote:The reason i can not rank froch legacy over calzaghe is that never in froch carear was he no 1 in the division whioe joe was no1 in both sm and lh division. I think but joe beats froch....froch has fought the better fighters...but froch was never no1 and was was undisputed no1 like ward is now and nobody will say froch legacy is better than wards.
Wards legacy is better than Calzaghe's too though. By a distance.
Why? Miranda, Pudwill, Kessler, Green, Bika, Abraham, Froch and defended against LHW Dawson at SMW.
That record doesn't scream out as been better by a distance. Ward's best win is Kessler or Froch?
Both probably about even in terms of standout win. He beat them both comfortably. He beat Kessler more convincingly than Calzaghe did. Joes legacy for me revolves around Kessler and Hopkins. Wards wins over a Kessler and Dawson were more impressive. Throw Froch in and it's Ward all the way.
My point was mainly that a number 1 ranking isn't any real contribution to a legacy, IMO of course.
At times we have fighters who aren't really elite level sitting at the top of a division. It's about the quality available at the time. Replace Calzaghe with a prime Froch in that era and Carl would also have sat as the number 1 man in the division.
Would Calzaghe be the number 1 man at super middle now if he were in his pomp? Would he be number 1 at LH? Nobody can say yes with much confidence given that Ward is about and has had little trouble dispatching other elite level guys so far.
Re: Joe Calzaghe : Has Froch's leagacy now overtaken Joe's ?
Posted: 29 May 2013, 13:52
by rio
Joe beat kessler when he was unbeaten it carrys more weight just as mayweather beating hatton counts for more than pac mans win. There was no blue print to beat kessler before joe did, everyone else had failed. Personally think joe shoukd be ranked above wards as he moved upa weight and beat the no1 guy at light heavyweight which is something ward has not done.
Re: Joe Calzaghe : Has Froch's leagacy now overtaken Joe's ?
Posted: 29 May 2013, 14:04
by NazNaci1
rio wrote:Joe beat kessler when he was unbeaten it carrys more weight just as mayweather beating hatton counts for more than pac mans win. There was no blue print to beat kessler before joe did, everyone else had failed. Personally think joe shoukd be ranked above wards as he moved upa weight and beat the no1 guy at light heavyweight which is something ward has not done.
Joe beat an inexperienced Kessler, in his hometown and a Kessler who was carrying an injury. Ward's win over a more seasoned, better, stronger Kessler was more impressive. Froch also fought a better version of Kessler than Joe did, but that's my opinion.
A bit embarrasing that a long standing champion would not travel to put the younger guys in their places but insisted that they come to him and give him another advantage. But that's just me.
As for beating the No1 guy. That is a debateable statement, in itself. Many though he lost that one. Hopkins lost twice to Taylor and once to Dawson, too and Ward and Froch beat those guys respectively. We can go around in knots here.....
Re: Joe Calzaghe : Has Froch's leagacy now overtaken Joe's ?
Posted: 29 May 2013, 14:07
by rio
Hopkins was the no1 guy at light heavy when joe fought him making joe the no1 guy when he beat him ward needs to step up and do the same
Re: Joe Calzaghe : Has Froch's leagacy now overtaken Joe's ?
Posted: 29 May 2013, 14:09
by stevieb_8006
lillywhite14 wrote:daviddee wrote:Ha I am Scottish but the point of this thread is it full of English people who think Froch is better basically because Joe is Welsh. If Joe was English this Legacy question would not be hear fact
I'm English and think Jimmy Wilde is the best fighter from British shores.
likewise
Re: Joe Calzaghe : Has Froch's leagacy now overtaken Joe's ?
Posted: 29 May 2013, 14:11
by Final round
lillywhite14 wrote:
Both probably about even in terms of standout win. He beat them both comfortably. He beat Kessler more convincingly than Calzaghe did. Joes legacy for me revolves around Kessler and Hopkins. Wards wins over a Kessler and Dawson were more impressive. Throw Froch in and it's Ward all the way.
My point was mainly that a number 1 ranking isn't any real contribution to a legacy, IMO of course.
At times we have fighters who aren't really elite level sitting at the top of a division. It's about the quality available at the time. Replace Calzaghe with a prime Froch in that era and Carl would also have sat as the number 1 man in the division.
Would Calzaghe be the number 1 man at super middle now if he were in his pomp? Would he be number 1 at LH? Nobody can say yes with much confidence given that Ward is about and has had little trouble dispatching other elite level guys so far.
Sorry you've not convinced me that Ward's legacy is clearly above Joe's but he's still active and there is plenty of time. Joe beat Kessler first back and the Ward v Kessler fight was a god awful display of mauling and fouling but a win is a win and the Dawson stoppage was very impressive more so if he'd met him at the division he campaigned at ala Hopkins.
A bit embarrasing that a long standing champion would not travel to put the younger guys in their places but insisted that they come to him and give him another advantage. But that's just me.
Are you talking about Andre Ward here?
No way was the Kessler that Froch fought better than the one Joe fought.
Re: Joe Calzaghe : Has Froch's leagacy now overtaken Joe's ?
Posted: 29 May 2013, 14:13
by NazNaci1
rio wrote:Hopkins was the no1 guy at light heavy when joe fought him making joe the no1 guy when he beat him ward needs to step up and do the same
As I said, that was debatable. I thought both Reid and Hopkins beat him. Did he offer either a rematch? He got the W but, for me and a lot of others, he did not 'win'.
I would argue Ward has stepped up more than Joe has and Ward is not even close to being done, yet.
Re: Joe Calzaghe : Has Froch's leagacy now overtaken Joe's ?
Posted: 29 May 2013, 14:15
by Final round
Everyone in the Super Six 'stepped up' didn't they..
Re: Joe Calzaghe : Has Froch's leagacy now overtaken Joe's ?
Posted: 29 May 2013, 14:20
by NazNaci1
Final round wrote:Are you talking about Andre Ward here?
No way was the Kessler that Froch fought better than the one Joe fought.
I was referring to Calzaghe and no, the version of Kessler who fought Joe was not a better fighter than the one who fought Ward and Froch, in my opinion.
Re: Joe Calzaghe : Has Froch's leagacy now overtaken Joe's ?
Posted: 29 May 2013, 14:27
by rio
bengulnaci1 wrote:Final round wrote:Are you talking about Andre Ward here?
No way was the Kessler that Froch fought better than the one Joe fought.
I was referring to Calzaghe and no, the version of Kessler who fought Joe was not a better fighter than the one who fought Ward and Froch, in my opinion.
But he was unbeaten when he foght joe. And the version who fought froch the 2nd time was certainly not as good as the version who fought joe. A prime Kessler beat froch a slighly faded version got beat by froch.
Re: Joe Calzaghe : Has Froch's leagacy now overtaken Joe's ?
Posted: 29 May 2013, 14:30
by Final round
bengulnaci1 wrote:Final round wrote:Are you talking about Andre Ward here?
No way was the Kessler that Froch fought better than the one Joe fought.
I was referring to Calzaghe and no, the version of Kessler who fought Joe was not a better fighter than the one who fought Ward and Froch, in my opinion.
I disagree re Kessler but though your post was very ironic when defending someone who fought the whole super six in his hometown and on home turf.
Re: Joe Calzaghe : Has Froch's leagacy now overtaken Joe's ?
Posted: 29 May 2013, 14:37
by Final round
Kessler fought with the confidence of a unbeaten champ ,going onto enemy turf in front of 50,000 fans mainly made up of Welsh faithful ready to tear the belt from Calzaghe.
Will Ward ever show balls that big?
Re: Joe Calzaghe : Has Froch's leagacy now overtaken Joe's ?
Posted: 29 May 2013, 14:41
by NazNaci1
Final round wrote:bengulnaci1 wrote:Final round wrote:Are you talking about Andre Ward here?
No way was the Kessler that Froch fought better than the one Joe fought.
I was referring to Calzaghe and no, the version of Kessler who fought Joe was not a better fighter than the one who fought Ward and Froch, in my opinion.
I disagree re Kessler but though your post was very ironic when defending someone who fought the whole super six in his hometown and on home turf.
As opposed to what? Someone who has fought all but 3 fights with 'home' advantage throughtout his ENTIRE career. And we are debating legacies here.
Yes, very ironic, indeed.
Re: Joe Calzaghe : Has Froch's leagacy now overtaken Joe's ?
Posted: 29 May 2013, 14:44
by NazNaci1
Final round wrote:Kessler fought with the confidence of a unbeaten champ ,going onto enemy turf in front of 50,000 fans mainly made up of Welsh faithful ready to tear the belt from Calzaghe.
Will Ward ever show balls that big?
That's some fantastic spin right there
I prefer to view that as a long reigning Champion unwilling to leave his safety net, for fear of losing. Which is fair enough, if I am honest. I can accept that.
This type of spin is just laughable, really. Bunny would be proud. Ward and Froch 'legacies' are still superior. What is obvious though is that regardless of what has happened with opponents, trevelling or non travelling, quality of opponents etc..people will still argue this topic to death. No matter what Froch goes on to do.
Re: Joe Calzaghe : Has Froch's leagacy now overtaken Joe's ?
Posted: 29 May 2013, 15:47
by hurlock
As Roy jones has been mentioned.know fighter in the sport beats him in his prime even a shot rjj dropped joe with joe failing to stops fighter who had been conclusively ko'd twice in his previous 5 fights. Jc could of fought jones liles ottke .
Anyone who says jc could of beat rjj on his day is utterly clueless he wouldn't of got past the first round!
Re: Joe Calzaghe : Has Froch's leagacy now overtaken Joe's ?
Posted: 29 May 2013, 17:13
by Quixall
rio wrote:The reason i can not rank froch legacy over calzaghe is that never in froch carear was he no 1 in the division whioe joe was no1 in both sm and lh division. I think but joe beats froch....froch has fought the better fighters...but froch was never no1 and was was undisputed no1 like ward is now and nobody will say froch legacy is better than wards.
You just said it yourself.............."Froch has fought the better fighters" That's it !!
This number one in the division stuff is meaningess really, it's about legacy and how people percieve what you did.
Re: Joe Calzaghe : Has Froch's leagacy now overtaken Joe's ?
Posted: 29 May 2013, 17:19
by Quixall
rio wrote:bengulnaci1 wrote:Final round wrote:Are you talking about Andre Ward here?
No way was the Kessler that Froch fought better than the one Joe fought.
I was referring to Calzaghe and no, the version of Kessler who fought Joe was not a better fighter than the one who fought Ward and Froch, in my opinion.
But he was unbeaten when he foght joe. And the version who fought froch the 2nd time was certainly not as good as the version who fought joe. A prime Kessler beat froch a slighly faded version got beat by froch.
If you want to talk about "faded" fighters, then Calzaghe has three on his record, Eubank, Hopkins and Jones. I would say that the Kessler that Froch beat was way more dangerous than any of those three.
Re: Joe Calzaghe : Has Froch's leagacy now overtaken Joe's ?
Posted: 29 May 2013, 17:33
by expe
bengulnaci1 wrote:rio wrote:Joe beat kessler when he was unbeaten it carrys more weight just as mayweather beating hatton counts for more than pac mans win. There was no blue print to beat kessler before joe did, everyone else had failed. Personally think joe shoukd be ranked above wards as he moved upa weight and beat the no1 guy at light heavyweight which is something ward has not done.
Joe beat an inexperienced Kessler, in his hometown and a Kessler who was carrying an injury. Ward's win over a more seasoned, better, stronger Kessler was more impressive. Froch also fought a better version of Kessler than Joe did, but that's my opinion.
A bit embarrasing that a long standing champion would not travel to put the younger guys in their places but insisted that they come to him and give him another advantage. But that's just me.
As for beating the No1 guy. That is a debateable statement, in itself. Many though he lost that one. Hopkins lost twice to Taylor and once to Dawson, too and Ward and Froch beat those guys respectively. We can go around in knots here.....
How was Kessler inexperienced? He was 28 years old, had already fought away from home, admittedly not in front of 54,000 people, but how do you prepare for that? He was an unbeaten, 39-0, unified champion, how much more experience did he need?
Re: Joe Calzaghe : Has Froch's leagacy now overtaken Joe's ?
Posted: 29 May 2013, 18:02
by NazNaci1
expe wrote:bengulnaci1 wrote:rio wrote:Joe beat kessler when he was unbeaten it carrys more weight just as mayweather beating hatton counts for more than pac mans win. There was no blue print to beat kessler before joe did, everyone else had failed. Personally think joe shoukd be ranked above wards as he moved upa weight and beat the no1 guy at light heavyweight which is something ward has not done.
Joe beat an inexperienced Kessler, in his hometown and a Kessler who was carrying an injury. Ward's win over a more seasoned, better, stronger Kessler was more impressive. Froch also fought a better version of Kessler than Joe did, but that's my opinion.
A bit embarrasing that a long standing champion would not travel to put the younger guys in their places but insisted that they come to him and give him another advantage. But that's just me.
As for beating the No1 guy. That is a debateable statement, in itself. Many though he lost that one. Hopkins lost twice to Taylor and once to Dawson, too and Ward and Froch beat those guys respectively. We can go around in knots here.....
How was Kessler inexperienced? He was 28 years old, had already fought away from home, admittedly not in front of 54,000 people, but how do you prepare for that? He was an unbeaten, 39-0, unified champion, how much more experience did he need?
If you scroll back thorugh the pages in this thread, you will read that this has been highlighted by me and others as well as other points. You obviosuly feel differently, which is ok.
I will leave it there, as I and others have been repeating ourselves in various posts. No sense in doing it anymore. I stand by what I say. Suffice to say that some think Froch, some believe Calzaghe. That's the way it is and will always be, I'd imagine.