BoxRec

Il Duce wrote:Mr. Scallum

You make it sound as if Muhammad Ali was pulled out of the Boxing Ring in April 1967,
and was then forced to sit in a closet for 3 1/2 years, and then the door is opened in
March 1971, and he is forced to get in the Ring with Joe Frazier.

Is that what you believe happened............

Do you think Frazier wins if he was the one who didn't fight for 3.5 years?

scallum wrote:

Il Duce wrote:Mr. Scallum

You make it sound as if Muhammad Ali was pulled out of the Boxing Ring in April 1967,
and was then forced to sit in a closet for 3 1/2 years, and then the door is opened in
March 1971, and he is forced to get in the Ring with Joe Frazier.

Is that what you believe happened............

Do you think Frazier wins if he was the one who didn't fight for 3.5 years?

Its a bit in between Ali was back but nowhere near his best.....Ali would have won if there wasnt a lay off...I dont understand all this Ali bashing....sad really....Il Duce you should work as a divorce lawyer representing the female party...
evrenb

scallum wrote:

Il Duce wrote:Mr. Scallum

You make it sound as if Muhammad Ali was pulled out of the Boxing Ring in April 1967,
and was then forced to sit in a closet for 3 1/2 years, and then the door is opened in
March 1971, and he is forced to get in the Ring with Joe Frazier.

Is that what you believe happened............

Do you think Frazier wins if he was the one who didn't fight for 3.5 years?

Ali had 18 rounds in the ring in the 6 month run-up to the FOTC.

Frazier had 2 rounds and was coming off a fractured ankle and had BP issues.

Only when he lost, did the Ali camp start the lay-off excuse. Their allies in the media then carried the drumbeat and sure enough the propaganda eventually filtered down to the non-critical thinker, low information class.

That class has representation here on BoxRec.

Ali lost The Big One, fair and square.

Man up and deal with it.

Jesus bless.

Everyone has dealt with it, Yance. It seems you still haven't dealt with it, forty long years later.

Duce, if only you could spread the news of the Ali/Liston fix. You seem to be the last man living who knows the truth. Stop wasting your time on an obscure forum and take it to the media, please!

Il Duce wrote:This not 'Muhammad Ali Bashing',

Just one persons opinion.

It seems to me, you can't have an objective view when discussing Muhammad Ali.

Ali - 2 wins over frazier
frazier - 1 win (highly contentious) over ali...I thought Ali won easy...

evrenb

evrenb wrote: Ali - 2 wins over frazier
frazier - 1 win (highly contentious) over ali...I thought Ali won easy...

evrenb

Evren... you surely must accept you are in a very small minority to call Frazier/Ali I 'highly contentious' and say Ali won easy?

You do your credibility no favours taking such an untenable position, every bit as silly as the two Ali Bashers on the opposite end of the spectrum.

loaded_gloves wrote:

evrenb wrote: Ali - 2 wins over frazier
frazier - 1 win (highly contentious) over ali...I thought Ali won easy...

evrenb

Evren... you surely must accept you are in a very small minority to call Frazier/Ali I 'highly contentious' and say Ali won easy?

You do your credibility no favours taking such an untenable position, every bit as silly as the two Ali Bashers on the opposite end of the spectrum.

lol

I have no credibility left :-(
Just being controversial - Frazier won okay..im sorry. But it wasnt the best Ali. That must be admitted too ....

evren

loaded_gloves wrote:Everyone has dealt with it, Yance. It seems you still haven't dealt with it, forty long years later.

Duce, if only you could spread the news of the Ali/Liston fix. You seem to be the last man living who knows the truth. Stop wasting your time on an obscure forum and take it to the media, please!

Everyone has "dealt with it", right?

Then why the constant "lay-off" excuse?

That excuse only got started after Ali lost.

If you enter the ring, then you discard the excuses.

Il Duce wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong,

But when Muhammad Ali returned to the Ring on October 26, 1970 against Jerry Quarry,

It was "Mr. Ali" who wanted the bout scheduled for 15-Rounds, not 10 or 12.

As he claimed, "I am the Champion and have been ready to go 15-Rounds with anybody,
as I am the best Muhammad Ali ever."

Now, who would call Muhammad Ali a 'liar'.

....god this is pathetic....you can make arguments against any human that ever existed and denegrate them....
Its like this ; Ali was the greatest thing that ever happened to boxing....along with robinson the greatest fighter that ever lived ...
For goodness sake he beat Frazier twice, Foreman, Liston twice, patterson twice, Shavers, Lyle, Quarry twice, chuvalo twice, jimmy ellis, norton twice, bonavena, mathis and most importantly rudi lubbers...i could go on and on.....ali talked and talked and talked and put a lot of people off him....he was clearly a phenomenon...he had charisma, good looks, longevity and the 'game' was alive when he fought....as for Ali being a 'liar' you are obviously using his 'gob' to hype up....I just watched ali frazier 1 again for the first time in years...I must contradict myself again.....ali won that fight in my opinion...

And Ali wasn't past his best or faded in all of their fights?

Il Duce wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong,

But when Muhammad Ali returned to the Ring on October 26, 1970 against Jerry Quarry,

It was "Mr. Ali" who wanted the bout scheduled for 15-Rounds, not 10 or 12.

As he claimed, "I am the Champion and have been ready to go 15-Rounds with anybody,
as I am the best Muhammad Ali ever."

Now, who would call Muhammad Ali a 'liar'.

Quarry is not Frazier. What would have happened if Ali fought Frazier first fight back

Il Duce wrote:

p4p1 wrote:And Ali wasn't past his best or faded in all of their fights?

I agree with your accurate statement......

Wasn't a statement.... ? this little thing here lets you know if something is written in the form of a question. But wow if you really don't believe Ali was past his best after the exile you're a real hater.

p4p1 wrote:

Il Duce wrote:

p4p1 wrote:And Ali wasn't past his best or faded in all of their fights?

I agree with your accurate statement......

Wasn't a statement.... ? this little thing here lets you know if something is written in the form of a question. But wow if you really don't believe Ali was past his best after the exile you're a real hater.

So if someone does not necessarily think post-exile Ali was "past his best" then that automatically makes that someone a "hater", right?

Is that the extent of your reasoning abilities?

Pitiful.

yancey wrote:

p4p1 wrote:

Il Duce wrote:

I agree with your accurate statement......

Wasn't a statement.... ? this little thing here lets you know if something is written in the form of a question. But wow if you really don't believe Ali was past his best after the exile you're a real hater.

So if someone does not necessarily think post-exile Ali was "past his best" then that automatically makes that someone a "hater", right?

Is that the extent of your reasoning abilities?

Pitiful.

No, maybe I should of just called him a fool. Considering many of his other responses in this thread I would say he has some kind of hate for Ali. While Ali was still great after his exile he was no longer the same fighter he was before, Most reasonable people would admit that. Frazier put on a hell of a performance that night and I am not saying he didn't but you can't take that amount of time off from any sport and still come back as good or better than you were when you left it.

p4p1 wrote:While Ali was still great after his exile he was no longer the same fighter he was before, Most reasonable people would admit that.

How does being a different fighter (different stylewise) make post-exile Ali worse than pre-exile? Both versions had their advantages and disadvantages.

Senya13 wrote:

p4p1 wrote:While Ali was still great after his exile he was no longer the same fighter he was before, Most reasonable people would admit that.

How does being a different fighter (different stylewise) make post-exile Ali worse than pre-exile? Both versions had their advantages and disadvantages.

He had to be a different fighter because he lost some of his physical gifts, He adapted like a great fighter does.

p4p1 wrote:He had to be a different fighter because he lost some of his physical gifts, He adapted like a great fighter does.

He lost some gifts, but he also gained some (toughness). And does that mean he was worse than pre-exile?

Senya13 wrote:

p4p1 wrote:He had to be a different fighter because he lost some of his physical gifts, He adapted like a great fighter does.

He lost some gifts, but he also gained some (toughness). And does that mean he was worse than pre-exile?

How do you know he gained it he most probably always had that but before he lost those gifts he never had to use them to the extent he did post-exile. Every time he had to use toughness either physically or mentally pre-exile he still came through, though he didn't have to anywhere near as often. I don't think being tough how Ali(and many other fighters) was is something you can learn it is just something you're born with.

p4p1 wrote:

yancey wrote:

p4p1 wrote:
Wasn't a statement.... ? this little thing here lets you know if something is written in the form of a question. But wow if you really don't believe Ali was past his best after the exile you're a real hater.

So if someone does not necessarily think post-exile Ali was "past his best" then that automatically makes that someone a "hater", right?

Is that the extent of your reasoning abilities?

Pitiful.

No, maybe I should of just called him a fool. Considering many of his other responses in this thread I would say he has some kind of hate for Ali. While Ali was still great after his exile he was no longer the same fighter he was before, Most reasonable people would admit that. Frazier put on a hell of a performance that night and I am not saying he didn't but you can't take that amount of time off from any sport and still come back as good or better than you were when you left it.

Jeez, it sounds like Ali was away for 20 years. It was 3.5 years and many fighters have had similar or longer stretches of inactivity and still come back strong. Leonard had one fight from 1982 until he beat Hagler in 87. I guess SRL just had more talent than Ali.

p4p1 wrote:How do you know he gained it he most probably always had that but before he lost those gifts he never had to use them to the extent he did post-exile. Every time he had to use toughness either physically or mentally pre-exile he still came through, though he didn't have to anywhere near as often. I don't think being tough how Ali(and many other fighters) was is something you can learn it is just something you're born with.

How do you know he always had it, if he was dropped by Banks and Cooper, no big punchers, and wanted to quit vs Liston?

Senya13 wrote:

p4p1 wrote:How do you know he gained it he most probably always had that but before he lost those gifts he never had to use them to the extent he did post-exile. Every time he had to use toughness either physically or mentally pre-exile he still came through, though he didn't have to anywhere near as often. I don't think being tough how Ali(and many other fighters) was is something you can learn it is just something you're born with.

How do you know he always had it, if he was dropped by Banks and Cooper, no big punchers, and wanted to quit vs Liston?

Was dropped and straight back up both we're pretty good punchers and sometimes a punch lands in a perfect spot with the right amount of power. In the Liston fight he was almost blinded and in serious pain, would you want to go out and fight Liston when you are having serious trouble seeing, not to mention he recovered and continued kicking Listons ass.

So Banks and Cooper were the best boxers and punchers overall that he met, outside of Frazier? Where was he blinded if Liston couldn't land a jab on him? Where was this "serious pain", exactly, what signs of pain were there at all to be seen?

Senya13 wrote:So Banks and Cooper were the best boxers and punchers overall that he met, outside of Frazier? Where was he blinded if Liston couldn't land a jab on him? Where was this "serious pain", exactly, what signs of pain were there at all to be seen?

Neither knocked him out they got the same end result as Frazier did after the knockdown he got back up at about the count of 3. Look at the tape between rounds when he looks extremely uncomfortable, not to mention the numerous eye witness reports and the fact that others that Liston had fought had the same complaints. He didn't stop moving in the round he was having problems and he did get landed on but nothing that Liston was able to hurt him with. You're trying to make it sound like when he was having those problems he stood infront at punching range and slipped all the punches that came at him. The idea that he suddenly got tough after he lost some movement and speed is just ridiculous. As I said before every time pre-exile he was faced with adversity he still came through it and never folded. So where is the proof that he wasn't tough either mentally or physically pre-exile other than the fact after about the age of 21 he didn't have to take any punishment? So all you rally have is a hope

So he was just as tough, but where Frazier needed a dozen rounds of hard punching to weaken him enough to drop him, Banks and Cooper needed single punches to do the same? What a weak puncher Frazier was compared to these two.

Uncomfortable = nervous breakdown, he wasn't as tough mentally as he was post-exile, it's as simple as that.

What numerous same- or next-day eye witnesses were there? There was a version that Liston's hard jab when he landed to the head made some of his opponents dizzy, not that there was something wrong with their eyes.

Try closing your eyes until there is only very thin slit left for you to see through, don't open them any wider, and get into the ring with somebody who is a very good boxer and who has a very hostile attitude toward you for whatever reasons, and try moving as much as you want around, let's see how long will you last?

If Ali was ever going to be knocked out, surely it would have been against Frazier in the final round of their first fight. They had been in a gruelling contest and almost drained of energy when Frazier landed a perfect left hook - Ali's jaw was already swelling when he hit the canvas.
A lesser mortal would have been unable to get up from that but Ali rose quickly and continued the fight. In my opinion that took a superhuman effort and will - a genuine testament to his courage, powers of recovery and toughness.