WLADIMIR KLITSCHKO: EASILY THE WORST EVER?

[danconnollyeire]

The Brewster fight was completely different and wasn't really a question of chin. He took huge shots that would've KO'd most

Brewster wasn't as big a hitter as Sanders though.

True but if you watch the fight, Klit was completely exhusted, hands by his side taking full on blows and still stood up, so what I'm saying is chin wasn't really the problem. It was the heavily single shots from Sanders that caused him to collapse

[danconnollyeire]

The people who revere Wlad are, mistakenly, assessing him in a relative rather than absolute sense. Relative to the rest of the division he is king, but on an absolute level he obviously falls well short.

It's not about revering the guy, at least it isn't for me. It's about him being the best we've got, and me not being a rose-tinted crybaby. Joe Louis is dead and Larry Holmes is fat and old. Some people can accept that, some people can't. Live for today, look to tomorrow, and dry your eyes.

I'd say Vitali is the best we have, creaking a bit now, but I'd back him all the way to kick his younger brother's arse if they met. He's starting to look beatable, but I'd say his overall career has been more impressive, and he has more bottle.

He's a better fighter period

[JimStone]

The people who revere Wlad are, mistakenly, assessing him in a relative rather than absolute sense. Relative to the rest of the division he is king, but on an absolute level he obviously falls well short.

It's not about revering the guy, at least it isn't for me. It's about him being the best we've got, and me not being a rose-tinted crybaby. Joe Louis is dead and Larry Holmes is fat and old. Some people can accept that, some people can't. Live for today, look to tomorrow, and dry your eyes.

I'd say Vitali is the best we have, creaking a bit now, but I'd back him all the way to kick his younger brother's arse if they met. He's starting to look beatable, but I'd say his overall career has been more impressive, and he has more bottle.

Maybe. I've always preferred Vitali too but he's a wreck now. Big problems with his shoulders and knees.

[jamesmcdonnell]

That a referee would allow a heavyweight title fight to be so marred is frankly a terrible indictment of the sport and it's flaws. Can you imagine if in the wimbledon Final, Nadal was allowed on occasion to allow the ball to bounce twice before hitting it back - it would be a mockery, that is what this is.

There needs to be consistency in refereeing - the fact of the matter is, all too often, one fighter is allowed to get away with murder, because they are perceived to be the house fighter, and the fact is, the referee knows subconsciously that if they allow leniency to the perceived star, they will get hired by the promotional outfit again - it happens time and time again. The referee knows all too well that the rules are being bent, but just allows it to go on, so as not to interrupt 'the script.'

That's how it is, and that's how it's always been, and it's one of the things that has always sickened me about the sport. I love to watch a great fight, but this kind of thing angers me immensely. Anyone who thinks that the fight was fair, and the rules were applied correctly, is either mental, deluded or biased.

Good post James. I watched the fight in a pub with several non boxing fans, they seemed a bit perplexed by my constant shouting at the tv every time Wlad leaned on Povetkin. It was a travesty to watch and took the referee far, far, far to long to deduct a point, the fight was all but over by then, perhaps the reason he deducted the point in the first place? There were 4 knockdowns in the fight, only one of which i can recall definitely being legit, though i've seen no replays nor read any other comments on the legitimacy of the knock downs so wont say to much on that. What i will say is that referee should never ref another fight again, period.

It reminds me a lot of the Hatton Mayweather fight, where Mayweather constantly rammed his elbow in Hattons face preventing Hatton from any in-fighting, this blatant fowling literally took any chance Hatton had of winning away from him. Mayweather was a bit more covert at fowling that night than Wlad was this past weekend, but it was still blatantly obvious and Cortez should have been held accountable for not dealing with it.

Yep, that was the fight It brought to mind for me to - totally illegal tactics, dangerous too as it causes cuts, Cortez was so in awe of Mayweather, he went to his dressing room before the fight to tell him just how awestruck and honoured he was to be refereeing the fight - I think that tells us what we need to know - Cortez was such a fanboy, he figured it was best to let Mayweather do what he wanted.

He also allowed Mayweather to continually turn his back, and then penalised Hatton for punching him on the back of the head as he did so, last time i checked, if you turn your back on your opponent, it's a foul. I'm not saying Hatton would have won the fight that night with a fair ref, but his chances were virtually zero when Cortez effectively allowed Mayweather to take away his one potent weapon, namely infighting, with an illegal move.

In the end, Hatton got so frustrated at not being allowed to fight - as even when he did manage to get inside, Cortez broke them instantaneously, that he just tried to rush Mayweather and was knocked out.

Nothing happened as a result, and was never likely to, Mayweather was calling the shots promotionally, Cortez knew that, and the boxing commisions, as usual, had no interest in fair play.

The really good fights make up for it, but in terms of fair play, boxing really is a joke compared to pretty much any sport I can think of. The house fighter generally gets treated with kid gloves, by the referee, and more often than not the judges too, so the fighter who is the favourite (generally thought not always the 'house' fighter) has even more advantage than their opponent, as everything is on their side.

With a fair application of the rules, both the Povetkin and Hatton fights would have been far more competitive and entertaining.

[handsofstone]

People can say what they want about Teddy Atlas but one thing i like about him was his hating on Joe Cortez(fanboy) let the fighters fight and just you concentrate on refereeing

[jamesmcdonnell]

I'd say Vitali is the best we have, creaking a bit now, but I'd back him all the way to kick his younger brother's arse if they met. He's starting to look beatable, but I'd say his overall career has been more impressive, and he has more bottle.[/quote]

Maybe. I've always preferred Vitali too but he's a wreck now. Big problems with his shoulders and knees.[/quote]


Yeah, he's definitely coming to the end now, but he's got a mean streak and toughness that Wlad has never possessed. I'll never forget his destruction of Danny Williams, a brutal beatdown - nor his willingness to fight Lennox Lewis right then and there with that terrible cut - he would have continued until he bled to death if he had to, didn't show one iota of concern for the state of his eye, just pissed as hell that he couldn't continue. A real fighter, through and through.

I believe Vitali, win or lose, would have been at least competitive with anyone in the history of the division, whereas Wlad would have been whacked badly by the likes of Foreman, Ali, Holmes, Tyson (though not I think Frazier, who was too slow and small). I think all those four would have smashed wlad to bits, but I don't believe ANYONE would have smashed Vitali to bits, just too tough a man.

[jamesmcdonnell]

People can say what they want about Teddy Atlas but one thing i like about him was his hating on Joe Cortez(fanboy) let the fighters fight and just you concentrate on refereeing

Cortez is an asshole - was a good ref back in the day, but just a ballsucking fanboy now. He should be ashamed of himself. He needs to look up the word 'impartial.'

[JimStone]

This is an excerpt from an article on Bloomberg that I read earlier:

"...The subsequent fight could hardly bear the weight of all the symbolism. Klitschko, almost four inches taller than his opponent and in strikingly better shape, dominated from the first moment. His gaze cold and calculating, he kept Povetkin at bay with his trademark left jab. By the seventh round the Russian's face was a puffy, discolored mass. As Klitschko danced away on the long, perfect legs of a Greek Olympian or arrogantly leaned on his rival, Povetkin huffed and puffed, struggling to get in a heavy punch and maybe get lucky.
In the seventh round, Klitschko knocked Povetkin down again and again, raining punches on his head. The stubborn Russian was reeling but would not give up. From the eighth round on, Klitschko appeared to be showing respect for the pretender's fighting spirit, and for the capacity crowd at Moscow's Olimpiisky arena. The Ukrainian champion was content to parry Povetkin's chaotic attacks, still getting in that biting jab from time to time. In the final tally, Klitschko landed 139 punches on Povetkin's head to the Russian Warrior's 31. The Ukrainian was declared winner by unanimous decision.

Klitschko, looking as if he had hardly broken a sweat, tried to be gracious after his successful title defense was confirmed. "Alexander boxed to the last like a warrior, and I thank him for that," he said into a microphone. "This is sports, and the stronger man wins." Boos and whistles drowned out his words: To many in the audience, it had been much more than sports.
Recriminations started immediately afterward. Nikolai Valuev, a former heavyweight champion turned pro-Putin parliament deputy, accused Klitschko of fighting dirty. Prominent Russian Orthodox clergyman Dimitri Pershin said Povetkin had lost because he had betrayed Christianity by showing too much interest in the ancient pagan gods of the Slavs. "Instead of tattooing runes on his body, he should have trained," the Interfax news service quoted Pershin as saying..."

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-10-0 ... -bout.html

[Ezzard]

Yep, that was the fight It brought to mind for me to - totally illegal tactics, dangerous too as it causes cuts, Cortez was so in awe of Mayweather, he went to his dressing room before the fight to tell him just how awestruck and honoured he was to be refereeing the fight - I think that tells us what we need to know - Cortez was such a fanboy, he figured it was best to let Mayweather do what he wanted.

He also allowed Mayweather to continually turn his back, and then penalised Hatton for punching him on the back of the head as he did so, last time i checked, if you turn your back on your opponent, it's a foul. I'm not saying Hatton would have won the fight that night with a fair ref, but his chances were virtually zero when Cortez effectively allowed Mayweather to take away his one potent weapon, namely infighting, with an illegal move.

In the end, Hatton got so frustrated at not being allowed to fight - as even when he did manage to get inside, Cortez broke them instantaneously, that he just tried to rush Mayweather and was knocked out.

Nothing happened as a result, and was never likely to, Mayweather was calling the shots promotionally, Cortez knew that, and the boxing commisions, as usual, had no interest in fair play.

The really good fights make up for it, but in terms of fair play, boxing really is a joke compared to pretty much any sport I can think of. The house fighter generally gets treated with kid gloves, by the referee, and more often than not the judges too, so the fighter who is the favourite (generally thought not always the 'house' fighter) has even more advantage than their opponent, as everything is on their side.

With a fair application of the rules, both the Povetkin and Hatton fights would have been far more competitive and entertaining.

Thanks James. Good post.

Is there a rule change that might end this era of pop-and-lock merchants?

Is clinching against the rules? Or is it excessive clinching?

[fasteddie]

In all seriousness, which heavyweight champions or contenders from 1990 onwards actually beat Wlad as he is today?

if you watch the bowe gonzales fight in the 90's you will see a carbon copy of how the fight would of happened if bowe would of met klit. bruno,lewis,holyfield,witherspoon of the 90's would of done him,gonzalez himself would of done klit,tyson would of eat him up big time with uppercuts and hooks,klit wouldnt of landed a glove on iron mike.

What did Gonzo ever do to prove he could beat Wlad? The guy lost every time he met someone with a pulse

which is what wlad would of done in the same era as gonzalez

[thepocketrocket]

which is what wlad would of done in the same era as gonzalez [/quote]

We will agree to disagree on that one

[fasteddie]

which is what wlad would of done in the same era as gonzalez

We will agree to disagree on that one [/quote]

im jokin he would of smashed gonzalez but the top heavies of the 90's would of done wlad

[thepocketrocket]

which is what wlad would of done in the same era as gonzalez

We will agree to disagree on that one

im jokin he would of smashed gonzalez but the top heavies of the 90's would of done wlad [/quote]

Ha! OK..beats people on the main forum saying Tommy Morrison would have battered him!! LOL

[Bard of Boxrec]

which is what wlad would of done in the same era as gonzalez

We will agree to disagree on that one

im jokin he would of smashed gonzalez but the top heavies of the 90's would of done wlad

Ha! OK..beats people on the main forum saying Tommy Morrison would have battered him!! LOL[/quote]

Mercer, Morrison, Ruddock, Tua, Witherspoon... the list goes on. All beat Wlad, by KO.

[thepocketrocket]

OK

[Final round]

When Alexander did a jab-and-grab on Maidana it was called masterful boxing...

That was one of my favourite performances of recent years. I didn't care who won, or how, and was impressed at the skill Devon showed. There is absolutely ZERO comparison between what Devon did and what Wlad did. ZERO.

Totally agree, poor comparison that Ezzard.

[JimStone]

Do you know who I'd like to have seen against Wlad circa 2004/05 and would have given a good chance to? James Toney. I know you're a fan like me, Dead Mouse, how would he have got on?

[keithmoonhangover]

Mercer, Morrison, Ruddock, Tua, Witherspoon... the list goes on. All beat Wlad, by KO.

There is no way in the world that Tommy Morrison beats Wladimir Klitschko. Not a chance.

A disciplined Wlad beats any version of Mercer.

[loaded_gloves]

Mercer, Morrison, Ruddock, Tua, Witherspoon... the list goes on. All beat Wlad, by KO.

There is no way in the world that Tommy Morrison beats Wladimir Klitschko. Not a chance.

A disciplined Wlad beats any version of Mercer.

But... you thought there is no way in the world Wladimir Klitschko beats Alex Povetkin. So...

Ray Mercer in his day massacres Wladimir. He punches through anything Wlad does the same way he did Lennox Lewis. And we all know Wlad can't take it. It is frankly ridiculous to claim Wlad can beat any version of Mercer.

Tommy Morrison would only need to land one sweet shot and you could count to 100 over Wlad. Christ, the first KD old fatty Corrie Sanders scored and Wlad went down like he was dead.

[Bard of Boxrec]

I sense groundhog day here LG. We probably need to vacate this thread immediately, but we both know neither of us will. It's only a matter of time before folk start talking about how Wlad 'improved' since Sanders.

[Final round]

The Mercer who roughed up Lewis would have given Wladamir something to think about. Like falling on the canvas.

[Ezzard]

When Alexander did a jab-and-grab on Maidana it was called masterful boxing...

That was one of my favourite performances of recent years. I didn't care who won, or how, and was impressed at the skill Devon showed. There is absolutely ZERO comparison between what Devon did and what Wlad did. ZERO.

Totally agree, poor comparison that Ezzard.

No, I picked it on purpose. Devon was applauded for clinching every time Maidana got close. It was, according to some, a masterclass. Then I watched Kirkland-Molina and heard the commentary team complain about Molina’s continual clinching. Now I’m hearing all about Wlad’s clinching…

It’s obvious that Alexander looked a little more artful when he did it…I presumed we all watch enough boxing to see that.

Does looking good doing it make it okay?

I don’t know the answer…I think it should make no difference whatsoever…but my suspicion is that it does matter…I’m interested in what others think.

[palooka]

The Mercer who roughed up Lewis would have given Wladamir something to think about. Like falling on the canvas.

The fact you’ve had to qualify the statement gets to the crux of the matter. It’s always “The version who showed up against…” because the names you’re throwing up lacked consistency, which is one of Wlad’s gifts. All you scientists are throwing an invariable into the mix then claiming you’d know for sure the outcome despite the presence of this invariable. I’d hold off on those Nobel Prize speeches for the time being.

Aden, I was obsessed with the idea that Toney could have done it circa-2004 and my dream was to see him and Audley Harrison fight for a world title, but the reality is that I couldn’t have said for certainty that a fat middleweight would have been able to get past the jab and do a job on Wlad, even when the fat man in question is JT.

You do know your stuff and at one time it was thought, in error, that Wlad was consistent at being knocked cold - the Wlad that beat Povetkin would have given anyone an argument; the one that lost to Brewster or Sanders would have had Mercer all over him - and Mercer was a bad man.

[palooka]

The fact you’ve had to qualify the statement gets to the crux of the matter. It’s always “The version who showed up against…” because the names you’re throwing up lacked consistency, which is one of Wlad’s gifts. All you scientists are throwing an invariable into the mix then claiming you’d know for sure the outcome despite the presence of this invariable. I’d hold off on those Nobel Prize speeches for the time being.

Aden, I was obsessed with the idea that Toney could have done it circa-2004 and my dream was to see him and Audley Harrison fight for a world title, but the reality is that I couldn’t have said for certainty that a fat middleweight would have been able to get past the jab and do a job on Wlad, even when the fat man in question is JT.[/quote]

You do know your stuff and at one time it was thought, in error, that Wlad was consistent at being knocked cold - the Wlad that beat Povetkin would have given anyone an argument; the one that lost to Brewster or Sanders would have had Mercer all over him - and Mercer was a bad man.[/quote]

Knockout cold, I presume? That's a funny inference for people to make given that he was finished on his feet Vs Purity and was trying to get his footing Vs Brewster. As you say, that thinking was mistaken. Ask yourself this. What happens if the version of Mercer that fought Ferguson shows up?[/quote]


Wlad may have taken the dive

[banjo]

Prominent Russian Orthodox clergyman Dimitri Pershin said Povetkin had lost because he had betrayed Christianity by showing too much interest in the ancient pagan gods of the Slavs.

Wow! I preferred the Russia where you'd be dragged out of your home and shot for coming out with such guff.