The Best White Heavyweight of All Time

[Ambling Alp II]

Dempsey was tough but no way would he beat Marciano. Most of those old-timers like Sullivan and Corbett wouldn't last through the first round against the bigger faster heavies. Corbett couldn't break an egg and Sullivan was nothing but a tavern brawler. Fitzsimmons was a good middleweight, but he failed twice against Jeffries who was George Chuvalo if Chuvalo never had a decent jab or a right hand. Jack Sharkey would've boxed Jeffries head off in a fifteen round fight, never mind Gene Tunney. Tommy Burns was a great little fighter, but against giants, he wouldn't last.

Dream on.

Next time run the tournament using Title Bout Championship Boxing. Avoid a popularity contest.

Cap, I'm trying to follow this Cap. So the heavyweight division really got going with Jack Sharkey?

[margaret thatcher]

Aways been confused about white/hispanic distinction. Like, many white Europeans went to Argentina . They have descendants who are every bit as 'white' racially, but now speak spanish, were born in south america, have names like Jose etc. Are they now hispanic rather than white like maybe their paretns/grandparents?

[jaclem3]

an afiican-american albino would could be worthy of discussion here'......as buzz would put it "just sayin'
\

[Fray Bentos]

Aways been confused about white/hispanic distinction. Like, many white Europeans went to Argentina . They have descendants who are every bit as 'white' racially, but now speak spanish, were born in south america, have names like Jose etc. Are they now hispanic rather than white like maybe their paretns/grandparents?

'Hispanic' is a cultural definition based around speaking Spanish that is relevant to the United States - both Felix Trinidad and Oscar de la Hoya are 'Hispanic' but of course are different racially.

You can be white, black or Mestizo and be 'Hispanic'.

[margaret thatcher]

Ah okay, wasn't sure

[AntonioMartin]

Aways been confused about white/hispanic distinction. Like, many white Europeans went to Argentina . They have descendants who are every bit as 'white' racially, but now speak spanish, were born in south america, have names like Jose etc. Are they now hispanic rather than white like maybe their paretns/grandparents?

'Hispanic' is a cultural definition based around speaking Spanish that is relevant to the United States - both Felix Trinidad and Oscar de la Hoya are 'Hispanic' but of course are different racially.

You can be white, black or Mestizo and be 'Hispanic'.

[AntonioMartin]

I think Rocky Marciano takes it.

However, if you are going to include Italians then you should include several Hispanics of white complexion such as John and Andy Ruiz, Jose Roman, Luis Firpo, Artufo Godoy, etc.

This will be fun!!!

John and Andy Ruiz aren't white.

In most Latin countries they'd be considered to be White...not in the USA, through.

[Tuan_Jim]

Aways been confused about white/hispanic distinction. Like, many white Europeans went to Argentina . They have descendants who are every bit as 'white' racially, but now speak spanish, were born in south america, have names like Jose etc. Are they now hispanic rather than white like maybe their paretns/grandparents?

They are descendants of Spanish colonialists who mated with the native indians, many hundreds of years ago. They have observably different anthropometric traits, and while Oscar Bonavena might be considered 'white' in the confines of Argentina, I'm not sure any Englishman or yank would look at him and think, there goes a white man!

[Tuan_Jim]

John and Andy Ruiz aren't white.

In most Latin countries they'd be considered to be White...not in the USA, through.

Andy Ruiz waving his Mexican flag (never the Stars & Stripes I notice) would reject being called white. I'm sure he would say he was "brown and proud".

[Cap]

Dempsey was tough but no way would he beat Marciano. Most of those old-timers like Sullivan and Corbett wouldn't last through the first round against the bigger faster heavies. Corbett couldn't break an egg and Sullivan was nothing but a tavern brawler. Fitzsimmons was a good middleweight, but he failed twice against Jeffries who was George Chuvalo if Chuvalo never had a decent jab or a right hand. Jack Sharkey would've boxed Jeffries head off in a fifteen round fight, never mind Gene Tunney. Tommy Burns was a great little fighter, but against giants, he wouldn't last.

Dream on.

Next time run the tournament using Title Bout Championship Boxing. Avoid a popularity contest.

Cap, I'm trying to follow this Cap. So the heavyweight division really got going with Jack Sharkey?

Actually, Alp. If we're just talking about the division, to my way of thinking, and I'm in the minority, the first world heavyweight championship fight was probably when Bob Fitzsimmons beat James J Corbett. Fitz actually usually weighed more than the 158 lbs he liked to claim he did. Some personal vanity I guess. The first title fight should've been between Corbett and Peter Jackson, but Corbett was too busy stage acting.

But we were just talking about heavyweight tournaments and who beats whom. Jim Jeffries was lucky to fight a handful of guys who were either small (like Sharkey, Choynski, etc.); past their best before date (like Fitz, Jackson and Corbett), or comparatively unskilled (like Kennedy, Ruhlin, Munroe, etc.). When he finally fought a guy close to his size who could box and carried a fair punch, he got whipped. Jeff was past his prime but even at his best he would've lost. Jack Sharkey, Dempsey, maybe even Willard would have done likewise to Jeffries.

The American obsession with skin colour always puzzled me. I suppose it stems from the days of slavery and white people being afraid of becoming black through intermarriage. Not so long ago Americans were still categorizing folk by percentages of black blood: Octaroon, Quadroon, Quarteron, etc.

[Ambling Alp II]

Guess people can argue about what they consider the first world championship fight. Would Corbett-Mitchell have to count though?

I guess I have a lot more respect for Jeffries than you do. I think the wins over Ruhlin and Kennedy were nice wins, and he won easily. Yes you can find faults with wins over Corbett, Fitzsimmons, Tom Sharkey, However, he won them all. Something has to give.

I don't think we can say for sure that he would have lost to Johnson or Dempsey. He would not have been steamrolled.
Jack Sharkey? He often found a way to lose while Jeffries found a way to win.
Willard? Can't imagine Jeffries losing that one.

Jeffires had his limitations. However he had a great chin, great stamina, good power, and was very determined. That makes you hard to beat.

[Caractacus]

when i hear the term "Hispanic" I tend to think of someone with a Spanish surname
but also with a certain amount of ancestry of the "Indigenous Peoples" (Native American)
some a lot more then others,
a lot of the so called Southern "Red-Necks" in the contiguous USA
also have a certain amount
of Indigenous Peoples blood in their background( averages about 5 generations back)
,but not nearly so much as South of the border of course,beacuse the English and British brought more
women over to here during colonial days then the Spanish..

[AntonioMartin]

In most Latin countries they'd be considered to be White...not in the USA, through.

Andy Ruiz waving his Mexican flag (never the Stars & Stripes I notice) would reject being called white. I'm sure he would say he was "brown and proud".

Again, in the US, yes, but in most Latin countries he's a blanco, a white guy.

[AntonioMartin]

Guess people can argue about what they consider the first world championship fight. Would Corbett-Mitchell have to count though?

I guess I have a lot more respect for Jeffries than you do. I think the wins over Ruhlin and Kennedy were nice wins, and he won easily. Yes you can find faults with wins over Corbett, Fitzsimmons, Tom Sharkey, However, he won them all. Something has to give.

I don't think we can say for sure that he would have lost to Johnson or Dempsey. He would not have been steamrolled.
Jack Sharkey? He often found a way to lose while Jeffries found a way to win.
Willard? Can't imagine Jeffries losing that one.

Jeffires had his limitations. However he had a great chin, great stamina, good power, and was very determined. That makes you hard to beat.

Jeff was a great champion...only lost to Jack and that was after he (Jeff) had been sitting on a rocking chair for years!

[Onetimeonly]

I'm more puzzled by this elevation of Sharkey than the color criteria. Solid boxer, but not anywhere near caps level. Surely max was white, he was better than Sharkey.

[Cap]

Guess people can argue about what they consider the first world championship fight. Would Corbett-Mitchell have to count though?

I guess I have a lot more respect for Jeffries than you do. I think the wins over Ruhlin and Kennedy were nice wins, and he won easily. Yes you can find faults with wins over Corbett, Fitzsimmons, Tom Sharkey, However, he won them all. Something has to give.

I don't think we can say for sure that he would have lost to Johnson or Dempsey. He would not have been steamrolled.
Jack Sharkey? He often found a way to lose while Jeffries found a way to win.
Willard? Can't imagine Jeffries losing that one.

Jeffires had his limitations. However he had a great chin, great stamina, good power, and was very determined. That makes you hard to beat.

According to both Fitzsimmons and Corbett, Jeffries was dangerous with his left hand (kinda like Cooney) but his right hand wasn't much of a weapon. He wasn't particularly quick on his feet and he had almost no defence. He was a heavy man compared to Tom Sharkey, Fitz and most others. Ruhlin, Kennedy and Munroe were roughly as big but weren't able to stand the gaff as well or didn't have his 'fighting spirit'. I think sluggers like Arthur Pelkey, Carl Morris, Al Palzer, etc were bullish enough and tough enough to hang and bang with Jeff. Jess Willard wouldn't have been intimidated by Jeffries and would've been able to bull him around as well.

If Jeffries had been around in the 20s he wouldn't have gone undefeated. Some good boxers with power then and just as big. Jeffries dominated his era because there wasn't much competition. Bob Fitzsimmons, a light heavy at best, was easily the top contender during Jeff's reign and he'd been fighting for some 14 years when he lost to Jeff. Fitzsimmons still managed to whip all the rest of the so-called challengers with little difficulty. Actually the guy who really exposed Jeffries was little Tom Sharkey. The same guy Fitzsimmons blew away twice, Jeffries couldn't stop in 45 rounds.

[Ambling Alp II]

Come on Cap. Pelkey was a stiff. Palzer and Morris? Seriously? I honestly think he could have beat them all in one night.
Jeffries beat big guys. He beat small guys. He had his flaws, but these guys had more and didn't have his strengths. He was a very strong guy, Jess Willard is not going to push him around either.
Jeffries was a lot tougher than these guys as well.

The sport did not magically get way better after Jeffries time. Some of the guys weighed more. So what?
You could seriously argue the division was strong in his era then the white heavyweights of the teens.

[pound per pound]

Come on Cap. Pelkey was a stiff. Palzer and Morris? Seriously? I honestly think he could have beat them all in one night.
Jeffries beat big guys. He beat small guys. He had his flaws, but these guys had more and didn't have his strengths. He was a very strong guy, Jess Willard is not going to push him around either.
Jeffries was a lot tougher than these guys as well.

The sport did not magically get way better after Jeffries time. Some of the guys weighed more. So what?
You could seriously argue the division was strong in his era then the white heavyweights of the teens.

I don't get what Cap said either. Jeffries unlike Louis, Dempsey and Johnson, three highly regarded champions didn't lose to any sub 200 pound men via KO, but they did. He beat top compeititon in his time. You can't ask more of anyone. We lack the films to fairly judge, but those who saw him felt he was among the best three heavyweight ever up to the 1960's, which says a lot.

I don't know who the best white champion of all time is. Probably Klitschko, either one of them.

[drunkenpiper36]

Probably wladimir Klitschko

[Duran1970]

Probably not

[margaret thatcher]

Who wins

Wlad vs Gary Mason
Wlad vs Pierre Cotzee

[Onetimeonly]

Who wins

Wlad vs Gary Mason
Wlad vs Pierre Cotzee

I'd think Gary Mason would run into difficulty fighting for this honor.

[Ambling Alp II]

Also wonder if that is supposed be Gerrie Coetzee or Pierre Coetzer?

[Cap]

The Klitschkos are nice guys. I wish them well. As for being the best "Western-European Caucasian" heavyweights, maybe. Who knows.

Now back to Jeffries. In his day he was first considered a clumsy ox with power by those who worshipped at the altars of Sullivan, Corbett and Fitzsimmons. When he beat a way over-the-hill Corbett and a past-his prime Fitzsimmons the mobs fled the church of Sullivan, Corbett and Fitzsimmons and made Big Jim Jeffries their hero. One thing they held against him then was letting Tom Sharkey last 45 rounds. Sharkey was smaller, lighter and had almost no boxing skills to speak of. He fought dirty, wrassled his opponents when he could and generally disregarded the rules. In his heyday fans regarded him as just a tough little guy with a fair left hook. He lost twice to Fitzsimmons and Ruhlin and looked pretty mediocre in fights he should've won easily. Yet big powerful Jeffries, who carried deer around on his shoulders and rescued damsels in distress, couldn't knock Sharkey out.

As I said before, Fitz was easily Jeffries' best opponent by a huge margin. Despite his age, Fitzsimmons demolished the rest of the so-called challengers without too much trouble. Styles make fights and Jeffries was just too big and strong for a puncher like Fitz. Instead of boxing Jeffries he tried to out slug him and even though he made a mess of Jeff's face he couldn't hit hard enough to really hurt him.

Ruhlin is often sited as a big man and a top contender. After a string of wins over some pretty pathetic opponents like Stockings Conroy, Yank Kenny, Jack Finnegan, etc He got beat to a pulp by Fitzsimmons and boxed a draw with ring-worn Peter Maher and this somehow earned him a shot at the world heavyweight championship. After his awful showing against Jeffries, he never beat a top heavyweight.

Jack Munroe, another powerfully built guy, was a coal miner who promoters tried to turn into a pugilist. Munroe never really thought much of the prize ring. He took his purse from the Jeffries fight and bought a sports book at the local track.

Joe Kennedy was everyone's sparring partner and usually fought like one. He was another of the big men people mention when talking about Jeff's fighting prowess. His only big win was a 20-round points decision over Gus Ruhlin in Kennedy's hometown..

The fans of his day thought Jeff was invincible, even believing he could come out of retirement and beat Jack Johnson. When he took a whipping from Johnson, his admiring public turned against him and it was years later, after the reigns of Johnson and Joe Louis, that Jeff's prestige rose again.

[Caractacus]

Isn't Ukraine located in Eastern Europe ?
I think maybe the Danube River may seperate Western from Eastern Europe.
BTW weren't there some "Oulde-Tymers"
(namely boxing writers)
that were still alive and around in the 1930's and 1940's
who actually saw Jim Jeffries fight ringside in his Prime
and rated Jeffries above the fighters of those times
(which was modern times then)
Tex Rickard was once quoted as saying
that Jim "Jeffries "was the hardest hitter that I ever saw,and that includes Jack Dempsey"