BoxRec

My point is that there is nothing on his record to suggest he would do well against the giants of today. By pre-Liston standards he was an average sized heavyweight or at worst only slightly below average. He was around the same size as Schmelling and Dempsey and against the top contenders of his day rarely gave away much size. Walcott, Charles, Layne etc were not significantly bigger than Marciano. He is certainly not a good example of a smaller fighter who overcomes a big size disadvantage to prevail again and again and he certainly doesn't advance the idea that the smaller guys of past years will find a way to prevail today.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑18 Apr 2018, 16:00 I know that you found a fight where Marciano weighed 192 but he usually weighed several pounds less than that. As mentioned he was short and had the shortest reach of any champion. He was considered small for a heavyweight at the time was the champion.
Yet people rated him on how good he was. He certainly wasn't perfect and most people realized that. However they rated him how good he was, not what the scale said. Until not that long ago that was the norm. You know rating fighters on how good they actually were. Stuff like power, speed, endurance, smarts, chin, defense etc. You know, stuff that actually matters.

Right.... Rocky wasn't the best on speed, skill, coordination, footwork, defense, etc... Even old worn out men like Louis and Walcott were tagging Rocky up in the early rounds, and leading on points...

Any prime career Heavyweight with brilliant speed and skills - plus size, height, strength, length, and punching power, would wipe Marciano off the map... The truth is what most historians acknowledge... Rocky was crude and slow... What other era was almost completely bereft of young Heavyweights of any ability.

Any prime career Heavyweight with brilliant speed and skills - plus size, height, strength, length, and punching power, would wipe Marciano off the map...

You left out granite jawed, highest ring IQ, and largest tool. If I had a laboratory, I'd make me a HW just like that! LMAO!

I didn't use any est did I???

I'm not talking most skilled, biggest, strongest, fastest, smartest, and whatever... I'm just talking about a young Heavyweight who gets to the top because he has a fairly good amount of talent in all areas... Not an era that was the weakest in History where a crude and unskilled Heavyweight can come in and fight the Don Cockell's of the world.

Kalan wrote: ↑18 Apr 2018, 21:07 I didn't use any est did I???

I'm not talking most skilled, biggest, strongest, fastest, smartest, and whatever... I'm just talking about a young Heavyweight who gets to the top because he has a fairly good amount of talent in all areas... Not an era that was the weakest in History where a crude and unskilled Heavyweight can come in and fight the Don Cockell's of the world.

C'mon Kalan. "Brilliant Speed", etc. Stop the soap box crap. It's getting tiring. Stick to the analysis and video examples. You do that best.

I liked Ellis' consistency. He was never upset by a mediocre fighter. He always beat the boxers that he was expected to beat.

Patterson? Yes, he should have lost that one, but I really didn't consider that an upset. In fact, I really thought that Floyd would win at that time. Look at Patterson's record. Who really beat him other than Liston, Ali, and Johansson? His other losses were to Maxim, Quarry, and Ellis, all disputed decisions. Floyd beat Bonavena when he was 37.

Floyd Patterson is in the IBHOF, and rightfully so, but I don't believe that Jimmy Ellis is that far behind him. I also think that Jimmy Ellis was better than some others in the IBHOF.

I agree that he is better than some that are in the HOF. He is better than Kilrain, Braddock, and Willard among others. I think you could make a legitimate argument that he was better than Miske, Godfrey, and Johannson. There are certainly some non heavyweights that he was better than as well.
On the other hand, there several fighters who are not in that were better than Ellis. As for getting in, he is competing against those guys.

I am afraid you are right. Ellis is a long shot.

People seem to remember him for his losses to Joe Frazier and the Patterson fight, that most consider a robbery, and that hurts his chances.

Jimmy Ellis was not a lineal champion, but he did win an 8 man tournament, beating 3 different fighters to get his WBA title. Most champions, lineal and otherwise, only had to win one fight to get their championships.

I was just looking through the Joe Frazier vs. Ron Lyle thread, which for some reason is now locked.

Anyway, 34 year old Jimmy Ellis went 12 Rounds with Lyle, even though Ellis was outweighed by over 22 lbs., and the fight was in Ron's hometown of Denver, and the arena was very hot (over 100 degrees).

Yes, Lyle got the decision, but to read the thread where Lyle is compared to George Foreman, and some thought that Lyle would handle Frazier much like Foreman did, then Jimmy Ellis, at 34, going 12 rounds with the much bigger (and younger) Lyle, should be considered quite an accomplishment, especially in the 100+ degree heat in Ron Lyle's hometown of Denver, Co.

Ellis praised Lyle after the fight, but said he would like to fight him again, and hoped it would be a little cooler next time.

Jimmy Ellis was a Jimmy Young type... He would be tough for Lyle if he were bigger, taller, stronger, and younger.

Young fell off a cliff when he had the opportunity to fight Holmes... All he had to is beat Ossie Ocasio once in 2 tries... They couldn't believe Young lost so they tried it again... They knew Holmes-Young would be an attractive fight, but Young didn't cooperate... Ellis suffered a similar disintegration versus Patterson... Angie said "Can't you beat this guy?"

Yeah, what is this shitt??

Scypion wrote: ↑24 Apr 2018, 15:14 I was just looking through the Joe Frazier vs. Ron Lyle thread, which for some reason is now locked.

Anyway, 34 year old Jimmy Ellis went 12 Rounds with Lyle, even though Ellis was outweighed by over 22 lbs., and the fight was in Ron's hometown of Denver, and the arena was very hot (over 100 degrees).

Yes, Lyle got the decision, but to read the thread where Lyle is compared to George Foreman, and some thought that Lyle would handle Frazier much like Foreman did, then Jimmy Ellis, at 34, going 12 rounds with the much bigger (and younger) Lyle, should be considered quite an accomplishment, especially in the 100+ degree heat in Ron Lyle's hometown of Denver, Co.

Ellis praised Lyle after the fight, but said he would like to fight him again, and hoped it would be a little cooler next time.

Ellis always seemed to be a classy guy. I know of only one fighter who had anything bad to say about him. He had good speed and boxing skills. Occasionally landed a good right hand. Always wondered how much rust had to do with the first Frazier fight. Not that he would have won, but he may have been more competitive. Too bad he those fights fall through between the Patterson and Frazier fights. Amazing that he got up from that knockdown in the Frazier fight. There didn't seem to be anyway he would get up.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑25 Apr 2018, 10:51

Scypion wrote: ↑24 Apr 2018, 15:14 I was just looking through the Joe Frazier vs. Ron Lyle thread, which for some reason is now locked.

Anyway, 34 year old Jimmy Ellis went 12 Rounds with Lyle, even though Ellis was outweighed by over 22 lbs., and the fight was in Ron's hometown of Denver, and the arena was very hot (over 100 degrees).

Yes, Lyle got the decision, but to read the thread where Lyle is compared to George Foreman, and some thought that Lyle would handle Frazier much like Foreman did, then Jimmy Ellis, at 34, going 12 rounds with the much bigger (and younger) Lyle, should be considered quite an accomplishment, especially in the 100+ degree heat in Ron Lyle's hometown of Denver, Co.

Ellis praised Lyle after the fight, but said he would like to fight him again, and hoped it would be a little cooler next time.

Ellis always seemed to be a classy guy. I know of only one fighter who had anything bad to say about him. He had good speed and boxing skills. Occasionally landed a good right hand. Always wondered how much rust had to do with the first Frazier fight. Not that he would have won, but he may have been more competitive. Too bad he those fights fall through between the Patterson and Frazier fights. Amazing that he got up from that knockdown in the Frazier fight. There didn't seem to be anyway he would get up.

That is the difference between Jimmy Ellis and myself. I would have made sure that I didn't get up before ten. Doubt if I could have anyway. I don't think that the result would have been any different if Ellis got a tune up fight. Frazier was just too tough for Jimmy at that time, or probably anyone else.

BTW, who was the fighter that had something bad to say about Ellis, and what did he say?

Kalan wrote: ↑25 Apr 2018, 03:23 Jimmy Ellis was a Jimmy Young type... He would be tough for Lyle if he were bigger, taller, stronger, and younger.

Young fell off a cliff when he had the opportunity to fight Holmes... All he had to is beat Ossie Ocasio once in 2 tries... They couldn't believe Young lost so they tried it again... They knew Holmes-Young would be an attractive fight, but Young didn't cooperate... Ellis suffered a similar disintegration versus Patterson... Angie said "Can't you beat this guy?"

Yeah, what is this shitt??

Jimmy Young was a great defensive fighter. I guess that Ellis wasn't bad defensively either when you consider that he was only stopped by Frazier, Ali, and Shavers, and as I said before, Jimmy went 12 rounds with Ron Lyle at the age of 34 despite being outweighed by over 22 lbs, in 100+ degree temperature, in the younger Lyle's home town.

Floyd Patterson did not seem to hit as hard after his fights with Johansson and Liston, but he seemed to be more clever. Floyd seemed to suddenly and unexpectedly throw good punches, which I think is how he broke Ellis' nose in the 1st or 2nd round. Patterson still was not easy to beat, unless your last name was Liston or Ali.

Scypion wrote: ↑25 Apr 2018, 19:43

Kalan wrote: ↑25 Apr 2018, 03:23 Jimmy Ellis was a Jimmy Young type... He would be tough for Lyle if he were bigger, taller, stronger, and younger.

Young fell off a cliff when he had the opportunity to fight Holmes... All he had to is beat Ossie Ocasio once in 2 tries... They couldn't believe Young lost so they tried it again... They knew Holmes-Young would be an attractive fight, but Young didn't cooperate... Ellis suffered a similar disintegration versus Patterson... Angie said "Can't you beat this guy?"

Yeah, what is this shitt??

Jimmy Young was a great defensive fighter. I guess that Ellis wasn't bad defensively either when you consider that he was only stopped by Frazier, Ali, and Shavers, and as I said before, Jimmy went 12 rounds with Ron Lyle at the age of 34 despite being outweighed by over 22 lbs, in 100+ degree temperature, in the younger Lyle's home town.

Floyd Patterson did not seem to hit as hard after his fights with Johansson and Liston, but he seemed to be more clever. Floyd seemed to suddenly and unexpectedly throw good punches, which I think is how he broke Ellis' nose in the 1st or 2nd round. Patterson still was not easy to beat, unless your last name was Liston or Ali.

Right... Quarry had Patterson down 4 times...but overall I don't think he outscored him... Ellis had the beating of Patterson... He didn't get into the condition he needed to be in to win. He disrespected him. They didn't do Ellis any favors by ripping Patterson off.. Another Patterson fight is what he needed. But I've seen it a million times. A guy has too much success and it goes to his head .... It happened to Young. He didn't keep charging after he beat Foreman.

I was a big Patterson fan, but I had mixed emotions about his fight with Ellis. I was disappointed by the decision, but I was glad that Floyd didn't fight Frazier, although I read that Floyd wanted to fight him. Now I wish that Jimmy didn't fight Frazier.

The unification match was a natural, but I knew that Ellis had no chance to beat Frazier. Other than Frazier and Ali, I thought that Jimmy could beat anyone else at that time.

Jimmy Young was a better defensive fighter than Ellis, but I believe that Jimmy Ellis was a harder hitter than Young. He had trouble knocking out the top contenders, like Quarry, Chuvalo, Lyle, Shavers, Bugner, Patterson, etc., but he seemed to be able to stop just about any heavyweight below them.

Jimmy was a good boxer, but he had some disputable moments. And Frazier fight is the main evidence of Marciano's ability to knock Ellis out. Of course, Smokin'Joe was more advanced, than Rocky, but Marciano had still been too much for Ellis. Jimmy could have looked good early, but Rocky would have been chasing him and sooner or later Marciano would have caught Ellis and knocked him out.

DrDuke wrote: ↑27 Apr 2018, 08:00 Jimmy was a good boxer, but he had some disputable moments. And Frazier fight is the main evidence of Marciano's ability to knock Ellis out. Of course, Smokin'Joe was more advanced, than Rocky, but Marciano had still been too much for Ellis. Jimmy could have looked good early, but Rocky would have been chasing him and sooner or later Marciano would have caught Ellis and knocked him out.

Are you really going to compare Marciano to Frazier??? .... It's like comparing a Volkswagen Bug to a Sherman Tank... Frazier was bigger, stronger, and faster than Marciano... Rocky was awkward like Bonavena -- who Ellis floored twice and boxed the crap out of... Rocky was also slow like Chuvalo -- who Ellis also boxed the crap out of.

Kalan wrote: ↑28 Apr 2018, 17:42

DrDuke wrote: ↑27 Apr 2018, 08:00 Jimmy was a good boxer, but he had some disputable moments. And Frazier fight is the main evidence of Marciano's ability to knock Ellis out. Of course, Smokin'Joe was more advanced, than Rocky, but Marciano had still been too much for Ellis. Jimmy could have looked good early, but Rocky would have been chasing him and sooner or later Marciano would have caught Ellis and knocked him out.

Are you really going to compare Marciano to Frazier??? .... It's like comparing a Volkswagen Bug to a Sherman Tank... Frazier was bigger, stronger, and faster than Marciano... Rocky was awkward like Bonavena -- who Ellis floored twice and boxed the crap out of... Rocky was also slow like Chuvalo -- who Ellis also boxed the crap out of.

You don't like a Marciano-Frazier comparison and then you equate Rocky to Bonavena and Chuvalo.

DrDuke wrote: ↑28 Apr 2018, 18:21

Kalan wrote: ↑28 Apr 2018, 17:42

DrDuke wrote: ↑27 Apr 2018, 08:00 Jimmy was a good boxer, but he had some disputable moments. And Frazier fight is the main evidence of Marciano's ability to knock Ellis out. Of course, Smokin'Joe was more advanced, than Rocky, but Marciano had still been too much for Ellis. Jimmy could have looked good early, but Rocky would have been chasing him and sooner or later Marciano would have caught Ellis and knocked him out.

Are you really going to compare Marciano to Frazier??? .... It's like comparing a Volkswagen Bug to a Sherman Tank... Frazier was bigger, stronger, and faster than Marciano... Rocky was awkward like Bonavena -- who Ellis floored twice and boxed the crap out of... Rocky was also slow like Chuvalo -- who Ellis also boxed the crap out of.

You don't like a Marciano-Frazier comparison and then you equate Rocky to Bonavena and Chuvalo.

It's a much more appropriate comparison than the quicker Frazier... Rocky was slow and awkward like them.. Chuvalo knocked out Doug Jones, who also was out-boxed by Harold Johnson like Ezzard Charles was... Walcott was knocked out by Abe Simon, who was certainly worse than Chuvalo or Bonavena... I don't think getting outboxed for 12 rounds by an ancient Walcott who had 16 losses and smoked 2 packs a day was a big feather in the cap of Marciano.

Kalan wrote: ↑29 Apr 2018, 01:43

DrDuke wrote: ↑28 Apr 2018, 18:21

Kalan wrote: ↑28 Apr 2018, 17:42

Are you really going to compare Marciano to Frazier??? .... It's like comparing a Volkswagen Bug to a Sherman Tank... Frazier was bigger, stronger, and faster than Marciano... Rocky was awkward like Bonavena -- who Ellis floored twice and boxed the crap out of... Rocky was also slow like Chuvalo -- who Ellis also boxed the crap out of.

You don't like a Marciano-Frazier comparison and then you equate Rocky to Bonavena and Chuvalo.

It's a much more appropriate comparison than the quicker Frazier... Rocky was slow and awkward like them.. Chuvalo knocked out Doug Jones, who also was out-boxed by Harold Johnson like Ezzard Charles was... Walcott was knocked out by Abe Simon, who was certainly worse than Chuvalo or Bonavena... I don't think getting outboxed for 12 rounds by an ancient Walcott who had 16 losses and smoked 2 packs a day was a big feather in the cap of Marciano.

Chuvalo and Bonavena were tough, but both can't be compared to Marciano, no one of them could put such pressure on their opponents. And, yes, Walcott was old, but he was an exeptional example of boxer being fit in that age.

DrDuke wrote: ↑29 Apr 2018, 05:48

Kalan wrote: ↑29 Apr 2018, 01:43

DrDuke wrote: ↑28 Apr 2018, 18:21

You don't like a Marciano-Frazier comparison and then you equate Rocky to Bonavena and Chuvalo.

It's a much more appropriate comparison than the quicker Frazier... Rocky was slow and awkward like them.. Chuvalo knocked out Doug Jones, who also was out-boxed by Harold Johnson like Ezzard Charles was... Walcott was knocked out by Abe Simon, who was certainly worse than Chuvalo or Bonavena... I don't think getting outboxed for 12 rounds by an ancient Walcott who had 16 losses and smoked 2 packs a day was a big feather in the cap of Marciano.

Chuvalo and Bonavena were tough, but both can't be compared to Marciano, no one of them could put such pressure on their opponents. And, yes, Walcott was old, but he was an exeptional example of boxer being fit in that age.

That's NONSENSE!!! All Chuvalo and Bonavena did was apply pressure...

Like Marciano they couldn't box... So Chuvalo pressured Doug Jones all night til he knocked him out.. He pressured Jerry Quarry, Manual Ramos, Joe Bygraves, Dick Wipperman, and Bill Nielsen into KO defeats... Bonavena was able to beat Chuvalo, Leotis Martin, Amos Johnson, Jose Giorgetti, Karl Mildenberger and many orthers with constant pressure.

Those guys were at least comparable to the washed up old timers and Light Heavyweights who Rocky fought.

Kalan wrote: ↑29 Apr 2018, 17:07

DrDuke wrote: ↑29 Apr 2018, 05:48

Kalan wrote: ↑29 Apr 2018, 01:43

It's a much more appropriate comparison than the quicker Frazier... Rocky was slow and awkward like them.. Chuvalo knocked out Doug Jones, who also was out-boxed by Harold Johnson like Ezzard Charles was... Walcott was knocked out by Abe Simon, who was certainly worse than Chuvalo or Bonavena... I don't think getting outboxed for 12 rounds by an ancient Walcott who had 16 losses and smoked 2 packs a day was a big feather in the cap of Marciano.

Chuvalo and Bonavena were tough, but both can't be compared to Marciano, no one of them could put such pressure on their opponents. And, yes, Walcott was old, but he was an exeptional example of boxer being fit in that age.

That's NONSENSE!!! All Chuvalo and Bonavena did was apply pressure...

Like Marciano they couldn't box... So Chuvalo pressured Doug Jones all night til he knocked him out.. He pressured Jerry Quarry, Manual Ramos, Joe Bygraves, Dick Wipperman, and Bill Nielsen into KO defeats... Bonavena was able to beat Chuvalo, Leotis Martin, Amos Johnson, Jose Giorgetti, Karl Mildenberger and many orthers with constant pressure.

Those guys were at least comparable to the washed up old timers and Light Heavyweights who Rocky fought.

I've never said, they didn't put pressure on their oppoents, I've said, that their pressure wasn't such as Marciano's.

Well....If Rocky ever had to fight Bonavena or Chuvalo?? -- His pressure would work like Joe Frazier's on George Foreman.

Joe says "I'm coming to get you big boy" ... George says "GOOD....Keep coming baby" .... They would keep dealing.

Scypion wrote: ↑25 Apr 2018, 19:17

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑25 Apr 2018, 10:51

Scypion wrote: ↑24 Apr 2018, 15:14 I was just looking through the Joe Frazier vs. Ron Lyle thread, which for some reason is now locked.

Anyway, 34 year old Jimmy Ellis went 12 Rounds with Lyle, even though Ellis was outweighed by over 22 lbs., and the fight was in Ron's hometown of Denver, and the arena was very hot (over 100 degrees).

Yes, Lyle got the decision, but to read the thread where Lyle is compared to George Foreman, and some thought that Lyle would handle Frazier much like Foreman did, then Jimmy Ellis, at 34, going 12 rounds with the much bigger (and younger) Lyle, should be considered quite an accomplishment, especially in the 100+ degree heat in Ron Lyle's hometown of Denver, Co.

Ellis praised Lyle after the fight, but said he would like to fight him again, and hoped it would be a little cooler next time.

Ellis always seemed to be a classy guy. I know of only one fighter who had anything bad to say about him. He had good speed and boxing skills. Occasionally landed a good right hand. Always wondered how much rust had to do with the first Frazier fight. Not that he would have won, but he may have been more competitive. Too bad he those fights fall through between the Patterson and Frazier fights. Amazing that he got up from that knockdown in the Frazier fight. There didn't seem to be anyway he would get up.

That is the difference between Jimmy Ellis and myself. I would have made sure that I didn't get up before ten. Doubt if I could have anyway. I don't think that the result would have been any different if Ellis got a tune up fight. Frazier was just too tough for Jimmy at that time, or probably anyone else.

BTW, who was the fighter that had something bad to say about Ellis, and what did he say?

Frazier. Claimed that he had been trying to get Ellis to fight him for a long time but that Ellis had avoided him.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑29 Apr 2018, 21:22

Scypion wrote: ↑25 Apr 2018, 19:17

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑25 Apr 2018, 10:51

Ellis always seemed to be a classy guy. I know of only one fighter who had anything bad to say about him. He had good speed and boxing skills. Occasionally landed a good right hand. Always wondered how much rust had to do with the first Frazier fight. Not that he would have won, but he may have been more competitive. Too bad he those fights fall through between the Patterson and Frazier fights. Amazing that he got up from that knockdown in the Frazier fight. There didn't seem to be anyway he would get up.

That is the difference between Jimmy Ellis and myself. I would have made sure that I didn't get up before ten. Doubt if I could have anyway. I don't think that the result would have been any different if Ellis got a tune up fight. Frazier was just too tough for Jimmy at that time, or probably anyone else.

BTW, who was the fighter that had something bad to say about Ellis, and what did he say?

Frazier. Claimed that he had been trying to get Ellis to fight him for a long time but that Ellis had avoided him.

I am not sure of the political dynamics at the time but it makes sense for Ellis not to fight Frazier until he did.

Frazier was declared champion by the NYSAC in March 1968 (Frazier-Mathis). Ellis wins the WBA Tournament a month later in April (Ellis-Quarry). So the WBA tournament was up and running before Frazier-Mathis.

Why wasn't Frazier in the WBA Tournament?

Then in September '68 Ellis defends his 'title' against Patterson (which seems a reasonable defense considering the controversy in Quarry-Patterson.) Ellis doesn't fight again until Frazier in February '70.

During this same period Frazier is very busy with four defense, but two of them are pure walk-overs and the other two are the already (Ellis) defeated Quarry, thus making only the Bonavena win a statement to be noticed.

Is this the period (1969) Frazier was complaining about? If so I would argue Ellis (Dundee) worked their timing just right. Ellis was off long enough to rest after the tournament, without it being too long (to get rusty.)

I will turn the argument around and say that Frazier was the one ducking the tougher competition of the tournament and he had to prove he deserved the Ellis fight; IMO the Mathis fight wasn't enough to compensate for ducking the tournament, he needed to beat Quarry and Bonavena first, then claim the right to fight Ellis.

Of course with twenty-twenty hindsight this all sounds very ridiculous, but you have to view it through the political prism of the day.

I would really like to know why Frazier wasn't in the tournament?