BoxRec

Being called a fag by someone like Grimm is almost a compliment.... if I started worrying what people like Grimm said then I'd start worrying!. .
The way he's so eager to call people fags etc and his shrill protests over the greatness of Mikey show that the guy certainly has his own pants in a twist.
8)

CM wrote:Tyson's speed and power were undeniable and at his peak, when he had Cus and even Kevin Rooney after Cus passed to program him correctly, he was like a wrecking machine---the key word there being 'machine'. That was his strength AND his weakness---once Cus was gone and he fired Kevin, he was on his own mentally and wasn't the same fighter. He was not a great inside fighter, certainly no Frazier, and even back then had a tendency to do nothing on the inside. Jose Torres talks about this in his book 'Fire and Fear' but it wasn't that hard to see. IF Cus hadn't died, and IF Tyson had kept up his early schedule of fighting frequently and staying sharp, and IF he wasn't a head case in the first place, I'm sure he would have at least broken Marciano's record, but IF a hen had balls it'd be a rooster, too. But still sooner or later he would have run up against an opponent of superior character and fallen short.

Yes, excellent post.

Tyson was following a very carefully laid out routine, in some senses like a martial arts routine, move and counter move were programmed into him, but this called for very little of his own mental input or even instinct. Cus found a figther who had the perfect combination of attributes to execute his peculiar style of fighting.

Patterson followed it too, but deviated from it, and couldn't follow it so exactly, and didn't have the physical strength of Tyson, nor the ability to take a shot.

At no point in his career was Tyson able to overcome adversity and prevail, at least not against anyone approaching world class in technical ability.

Without the backup of Cus D'amato's 'system' and the reinforcement of people who understood how to execute it, Tyson became a small heavyweight with tremendous power and above average speed, but inferior footwork and technical prowess. He was never again able to beat a world class fighter after losing to Douglas.

As you said, at some point in time, someone would have stayed in there, and remained competitive long enough to expose Tyson, that is was Douglas was a huge surprise at the time, but in hindsight, Mike's career was already unravelling.

J wrote:

Grimm wrote:

J wrote: IF YOU THINK TYSON IS THE GREATEST FIGHTER OF ALL TIME IT YOU MY FRIEND THAT NEEDS A THERAPIST.

you know the ironic thing is, its the tysonettes that perpetuate his misery, cos until he is done fighting he wont be able to move on.

He could make money in boxing outside the ring, trianing perhaps or maybe even commentating.

However while there is amarket for him, they will keep pushing tyson back in the ring, and its inevitable he is gonna end up getting hurt one day. Or he will pay for the unnecessary punishement he will inevitably take. Its ok fighting the likes of mcbride but he is at some point gonna be pushed toward sa top ten fighter and he could well end up taking a beating.

its sad to see this once awesome fighter being paraded as freakshow and boxing as a shell of his former self just for bucks.

Sorry grimm you ainyt gonna like this but its people like you that are causing this.

People like me are causing mike Tyson to keep fighting and potentially get hurt???????? Shut the fornicate up I made no mention that Tyson should still fight.

yes people like you, foolish nuthugging annoying tosspots, who still believe Mike to be capable fo "something great."
Stupid, ignorant assholes who overate his achievements massivley and think he s ome kind of boxing demigod capcable of super human feats.

Annoying pricks who have to rant and rave at every little criticism of their hero.

They create a market for tyson to be make money out of boxing so he will be fighting so yes, you stupid dick, people JUST LIKE YOU, ignorant asshole.

you fit all these categories you plank.

its very apparent you are about 14 years old, at least mentally and have a tyson fetish.

no need to be abusive just cos you know the truth hurts..

bafoon.

Once again you are bringing up some bullshit about me saying that Tyson should still fight or could still fight I never said shit about that and you are trying to avoid this subject by coming up with insults from the 40's(who in the fornicate uses the word bafoon).

And then you come up with more bullshit saying something about overrating his achievments. I never mentioned shit about his achievments either bitch.

All I said was that he was the most talented heavyweight of all time, not anything about his achievements nor did I mention anything about him still being able to fight.

RE: Pg1 think before you fornicating post.

Grimm wrote:

Broncano wrote:Not to mention the title of this thread adds a quasi-erotic inuendo, almost like the desperate moan of a poor soul deeply in love "Mikey, Oh Yes! Mikey"

Man you gay people make life suck. I'm trying to talk about the greatest fighter of all time and you bring up men loving Mike Tyson.

GO SEE A FUCKIN' THERAPIST.

I was young and restless one day too, Grimm and was seduced by the aura of the Tyson spell. Fortunately, there came a man by the name of Tony Tucker who exposed and foretold all that would follow in the coming years.

But I see that you are a firm believer and member of the CHURCH OF MIKEY and would be useless to point out again the facts that others have clearly already spelled out for you.

So all I was saying is to come out of that dark closet you've been hiding and embrace the TYSON FAITH in all of its shapes and forms (which incidentally doesnt exclude the HOMOEROTIC thrill all Tysonettes experience when they see their idol cursing, biting and being the vulgar animal they only wish they could be)

Let those chains be broken and be free, all Tysonettes holding hands together and in unison say (not much different than Meg Ryan in When Harry met Sally) "OH YES MIKEY!, OH YES!!!!"

Grimm wrote:

J wrote:

Grimm wrote: People like me are causing mike Tyson to keep fighting and potentially get hurt???????? Shut the fornicate up I made no mention that Tyson should still fight.

yes people like you, foolish nuthugging annoying tosspots, who still believe Mike to be capable fo "something great."
Stupid, ignorant assholes who overate his achievements massivley and think he s ome kind of boxing demigod capcable of super human feats.

Annoying pricks who have to rant and rave at every little criticism of their hero.

They create a market for tyson to be make money out of boxing so he will be fighting so yes, you stupid dick, people JUST LIKE YOU, ignorant asshole.

you fit all these categories you plank.

its very apparent you are about 14 years old, at least mentally and have a tyson fetish.

no need to be abusive just cos you know the truth hurts..

bafoon.

Once again you are bringing up some bullshit about me saying that Tyson should still fight or could still fight I never said shit about that and you are trying to avoid this subject by coming up with insults from the 40's(who in the fornicate uses the word bafoon).

And then you come up with more bullshit saying something about overrating his achievments. I never mentioned shit about his achievments either bitch.

All I said was that he was the most talented heavyweight of all time, not anything about his achievements nor did I mention anything about him still being able to fight.

RE: Pg1 think before you fornicating post.

so you are rating Tyson as the most talented heavyweight of all time but you are discarding achievements as a barometer.

oh i see, then you are reinforcing everyones opinion that you are in fact a complete and utter BAFOON.

p.s. i use that word as other people read this and I do not wish to stoop to the the levels you have shown yourself to be capable of.

Bafoon is just as effective as some of the tasteless remarks he has used, more so in some cases!

barry wrote:Bafoon is just as effective as some of the tasteless remarks he has used, more so in some cases!

blimey barry thats support from an unexpected source, appreciate it.
cheers.

I don't hold grudges toward anyone and I really try not to be an asshole just for the sake of being an asshole, but just like anyone else, I'm human!

barry wrote:I don't hold grudges toward anyone and I really try not to be an asshole just for the sake of being an asshole, but just like anyone else, I'm human!

likewise mate

Looks like we're all human here!.... cept for Grimm! 8) .
I'm not one to hit a man when he's down but for grimm I'll make an exception!. Mikey the most talented Heavy of all time???.... balls!... haven't you heard of Jack Johnson, Joe Louis, Larry Holmes, Ezzard Charles, Gene Tunney, Muhammad Ali???.... these men were all far more talented skillwise and most importantly where it really matters... between the ears!... physical talent will take a fighter only so far and true greatness comes from a fighters character and spirit.
Theres been about a dozen heavyweight champions who have been more talented than Mikey, but also far more who have made more use of their talents and whose accomplishments make Mikey seem the thickheaded gold-toothed gnashing inbred he really is... the man had talent but never the mental tools to really reach the real heights and be an all time great.

Again I have to echo Silkovs comments to my way of thinking there is no way I would rate Mike Tyson as the most skilled Heavyweight ever. One of the most dangerous and hard hitting yes, but not most skilled.

Ali, Charles and Holmes were all far more skilled and adaptable than Tyson ever was.

I would even go as far to say that there have been a number of Heavyweights who never even won a World title who were as skilled, if not more skilled than Tyson such as Sam Langford, Jerry Quarry and Jimmy Young.

Tyson was a dangerous, strong, fast handed puncher who would in his prime be a threat to anyone, but NO WAY was he the most skilled.

OK, let's try and move this forward.

I think, Grimm aside, no one is going to argue for Tyson having achieved more than any other heavyweight or to have been more skilful.

BUT

Would he arguably be the most influential heavyweight in history? By that, I mean in terms of

1) bringing non boxing fans to the sport

2) bringing money to the division

3) longevity ( at whatever level of competetivness we think he is at ) at a level where he is still considered ( by some capable of fighting for world titles

4) Passion, some would say blind, of his fanbase.

The only HW to compare on these grounds would be Ali and perhaps, in the pre war years, Joe L

The "greatness" of a heavyweight must also be measured in terms of sheer impact, however dubious that impact had occasion to be.

Thoughts?

Slapsie

You forgot Jack Dempsey in there Slapsie, and perhaps John L Sullivan who warrants considerations.

Tyson had the benefit of skilful and clever marketing and campaigned in an era of satellite which beamed his image all over the world. His myth was in large part to the men who moved him early in his career, though of course Tyson's physical appearance and contradictory persona contributes greatly to that.

He is definetely in the top 10 in terms of historical importance, and more than likely top 5 after Ali, Dempsey and Louis whose legend was created in more difficult times. Global sports stars are ten a penny these days. If Beckham is a global superstar despite having zero personality or anything of note to say, it says it all.

Most influential dealing with Ali, Tyson and Dempsey:
(but I'd also like to agree with KOJOE beforehand - these guys were nowhere near the best when it comes to skill)

Money and non-boxing fans I would say Jack Dempsey for his radio coverage and his huge gates, as well as his 'swarthy' looks (helped by his Hollywood work) that attracted many women to fights. Lacks longevity somewhat, compared to Ali and Tyson.
An interesting thing to take into account: how many films has Tyson or Ali been in (apart from cinema-documentaries in the case of Ali)? Tyson was in Black & White, but it was mostly a bit part. Neither of them broke into movies to the extent that Dempsey did. Yea, plenty other fighters have went into Hollywood (Tex Cobb and Palomino spring to mind), but let's stick with these three for now.

Money with Tyson along with longevity and (blind) passion. But also remember there are more 'world' titles around in Tyson's time. For example, even now people talk about him as a dead cert for the WBO 'world' title. In terms of longevity in World Championship terms, no, he's not that much above Dempsey, if at all. He was World Champion for three years, but how often after that was he a real threat to that title? He certainly wasn't by November 1996... Maybe he was a threat to Lewis? But then again, they fought, and Lewis destroyed him.

Ali gave us the first glimpses of the blind passion we could expect with the emergence of Tyson. His highest attribute in these stakes is his longevity (dodgy decisions aside). Did he really bring that many 'non-boxing' people to his fights? Sure, everyone saw him rhyming on TV and on TV shows, and as a result went to his fights... but doing that, when you think about it, was just an extension of the domestic process of watching a fight... how many of those 'non-boxing' people actually went to see a fight, like they did with Dempsey?

Most influential I'll go:

1) Dempsey
2) Ali
3) Tyson

Dempsey's an interesting call

I guess, in the context of his time, his crowd pulling powers would be up there with Tyson's PPV pulling power.

Was Tyson the biggest money maker though? I don't just mean for himself, Ali for eg got his huge chunk of change for the Forman fight ( $5million in the 70's) but for any opponent. Did Any other heavy's opponents not fight for ages before facing them for fear of losing the big payday? I genuinely don't know the answer



Slapsie

Slapsie Maxie wrote:OK, let's try and move this forward.

I think, Grimm aside, no one is going to argue for Tyson having achieved more than any other heavyweight or to have been more skilful.

BUT

Would he arguably be the most influential heavyweight in history? By that, I mean in terms of

1) bringing non boxing fans to the sport

2) bringing money to the division

3) longevity ( at whatever level of competetivness we think he is at ) at a level where he is still considered ( by some capable of fighting for world titles

4) Passion, some would say blind, of his fanbase.

The only HW to compare on these grounds would be Ali and perhaps, in the pre war years, Joe L

The "greatness" of a heavyweight must also be measured in terms of sheer impact, however dubious that impact had occasion to be.

Thoughts?

Slapsie

Interesting point but I'd have to point out how Sullivan, Johnson, Dempsey, and Louis all became icons of their times and attracted many non-boxing fans to the sport.... in Jack Johnsons case much of this attention was negative due to his colour but he still brought tremendous attention to the title and was loved in Europe.
Ali though muct be number one for what he did with the title, he didn't just change the face of boxing but of sport itself and was perhaps the first sports star of any sport to truely transcend sport itself to a greater degree than anyone before or since. Tyson still garner publicity but many have long lost interest in him and he has become more a sideshow than anything else and most of those who still follow him tend to be either the rabid Grimm-like knumbskulls or the leeches who hang around the depths of boxing who are more than happy to wring the last drops of blood money from a notorious exchampion as long as he can still walk in a straight line to the nearest out of town ring that will take him.

Slapsie Maxie wrote:Dempsey's an interesting call

It sounds daft, indeed, but you really need to think yourself back into the time. How many of Tyson and Ali's fans went to see them face an opponent? Whereas the challenger to Dempsey played a more important role in that they were there... how can I say it... not so much for him to feed from... (don't take that literally and think about Carpentier). Not sure how to describe it properly, but you need to view those non-boxing fans who were attracted to Ali and Tyson fights as having seen them on skits on TV shows over dinner, or settled down around the couch with a few beers listening to 'commentary' and 'expert analysis' pre and post fight. Housewife's and Joe Blogs in the early century didn't have that - they were drawn by sheer savagery/primitive pull of pugilism... That's what boxing is about (IMO) and that's why I rate Dempsey's crowd pulling power higher, because he was drawing people to a fight more than the other two.

About the money I'm not confident at all, hopefully someone who was around at the time could clarify...

Ali is in a league of his own in this respect. Not just in boxing. In all sports. I'm sorry but nobody else is even close. Not worldwide.

I wish there were some guys who lived through the Dempsey, Ali and Tyson era's who used this forum, and who could back me up on what I'm getting at. I'm betting most users here are in their 30's or 40's and grew up with Ali, or even in their 20's and grew up with Tyson. The 'obvious' hierarchy would then be 1) Ali 2) Tyson 3) Dempsey. There any old buggers out there who know what I'm talking about?

Spot on

As I said on a thread on the current scene. Ali was it for me.

That being said, I read enough about Dempsey to know about the crowds he drew etc.

what I think is useful though is taking Tyson out of the realm of "golly he's so super" and into the context of the greats. He undoubtedly belongs there. Not just because of his brief period of dominance, but also because of his influence on the fight game and beyond

Even now, 16 years after his reign effectively came to an end when he scrambled for a gumshield, he is still the one boxer 90% of the public can name. I think that counts for a lot even if, as a person he is hardly a role model

Slapsie

J wrote:

Grimm wrote:

J wrote: yes people like you, foolish nuthugging annoying tosspots, who still believe Mike to be capable fo "something great."
Stupid, ignorant assholes who overate his achievements massivley and think he s ome kind of boxing demigod capcable of super human feats.

Annoying pricks who have to rant and rave at every little criticism of their hero.

They create a market for tyson to be make money out of boxing so he will be fighting so yes, you stupid dick, people JUST LIKE YOU, ignorant asshole.

you fit all these categories you plank.

its very apparent you are about 14 years old, at least mentally and have a tyson fetish.

no need to be abusive just cos you know the truth hurts..

bafoon.

Once again you are bringing up some bullshit about me saying that Tyson should still fight or could still fight I never said shit about that and you are trying to avoid this subject by coming up with insults from the 40's(who in the fornicate uses the word bafoon).

And then you come up with more bullshit saying something about overrating his achievments. I never mentioned shit about his achievments either bitch.

All I said was that he was the most talented heavyweight of all time, not anything about his achievements nor did I mention anything about him still being able to fight.

RE: Pg1 think before you fornicating post.

so you are rating Tyson as the most talented heavyweight of all time but you are discarding achievements as a barometer.

oh i see, then you are reinforcing everyones opinion that you are in fact a complete and utter BAFOON.

p.s. i use that word as other people read this and I do not wish to stoop to the the levels you have shown yourself to be capable of.

There you go with that bafoon shit, because you really had nothing to say did you? You were arguing a point that noone brought up and now that you realize this the only thing that you can think of is to call me a BAFOON.

It tickles my brain,really.

Grimm, with all of the legitimate posts after bafoon which mentioned about Tyson and his signifigance as an all-time great, all you could focus on and answer to was the comment about bafoon...it puts me in awe just to witness such an intellectual genius like you at work!

You know Grimm, when I try to imagine what you might look like, the following picture comes to mind:

http://www.asylumpress.com/frankforte/cartoong1p03.jpg

barry ive given up mate, im glad it tickles Grimms brain must be damn hard to find it.

Manos de Oro wrote:

Slapsie Maxie wrote:Dempsey's an interesting call

It sounds daft, indeed, but you really need to think yourself back into the time. How many of Tyson and Ali's fans went to see them face an opponent? Whereas the challenger to Dempsey played a more important role in that they were there... how can I say it... not so much for him to feed from... (don't take that literally and think about Carpentier). Not sure how to describe it properly, but you need to view those non-boxing fans who were attracted to Ali and Tyson fights as having seen them on skits on TV shows over dinner, or settled down around the couch with a few beers listening to 'commentary' and 'expert analysis' pre and post fight. Housewife's and Joe Blogs in the early century didn't have that - they were drawn by sheer savagery/primitive pull of pugilism... That's what boxing is about (IMO) and that's why I rate Dempsey's crowd pulling power higher, because he was drawing people to a fight more than the other two.

About the money I'm not confident at all, hopefully someone who was around at the time could clarify...

Jack Dempsey was involved in the first million dollar gate if I recall correctly, and didn't he get a crowd of 90,000 for one of his fights.

Of course, that was in the days before TV, so if you wanted to see the fight you had to actually go, but don't forget, radio was still massive.

Here's some notes from the Tunney v Dempsey first fight.

had been three long years since Jack Dempsey destroyed Luis Angel Firpo in two rounds at New York's Polo Grounds Sep. 14, 1923. The 'Manassa Mauler' knocked out four of his five challengers since he won the title from Jess Willard July 4, 1919. The ferocity, as well as the finality of his wins caused the public and press to deem him unbeatable. So the heavyweight champion began to enjoy the trappings of his celebrity. He starred in silent movies, got top billing in Broadway plays and boxed in countless exhibitions. He did everything but defend his title.


Meanwhile, contender Gene Tunney, who was regarded as the best light heavyweight of the era, decided to move up a division. From the fall of '23 through '25, the studious Tunney had 17 bouts without a loss. He used every fight as a prep for his eventual showdown with the idle heavyweight king.

Promoter Tex Rickard staged the fight in Philadelphia because the New York State Athletic Commission refused sanction a Dempsey bout in the Empire State. New York reacted in response to Rickard's refusal to stage a bout between Dempsey and top contender Harry Wills, who was black.

A then-record crowd of 120,757, which paid a then-record live gate of $1.8 million, packed Sesquicentennial Stadium on Sep. 23, 1926 and braved a driving rainstorm to watch the biggest and most anticipated sporting event in history.