Why did Hagler fight Leonard the way he did?

[BoxBuzz]

Alp

Its because Duran has hands of stone.

...and there you have it. Case closed. Another mystery solved.

NEXT

[Goodnight, Irene]

I must say this thread has moved me to tears. The hard luck story of Ray Leonard is heart-breaking.

[Robinson]

Just doing my job Buzz. Clearing up everyone elses mess.

[Syntax Error]

I've always thought that Ray deserved the win (but just barely). Never the less I have never ever understood what fight Jose Juan Guerra was watching. Ringsider, your a fella with a really really bias opinion. Did you think Ray won by that big of a margin?

Just curious.

No I didn't think SRL won by that big of a margin. But He won the first 4 rounds as Hagler screwed up and tried to box him. So it was 0-Hagler, 4-Leonard going into the 5 round. The remaining 8 rounds was was at least an even split or 5-3 Hagler ........problem is he spent all his time plodding after Ray instead of taking a step to either side depending on which way Leonard went and CUTTING THE RING OFF. He looked horrible doing that. I thought Hagler was out boxed........

This sums up the fight perfectly. 8)

[ringsider]

Leonard exposed Hagler for what he was, and what real boxing affectionados knew all along.....a bumbling, plodding over rated south paw.......who in any other era would have just been an opponent, for the real fighters. He made a name for himself fighting smaller men moving up.......and got his ass handed to him by Sugar Ray.

[raylawpc]

Can you name some of the "smaller men moving up" that Hagler feasted upon?

[ringsider]

Roberto Duran, Tommy Hearns, John Mugabi....... And Sugar Ray Leonard, but he choked on Ray.

[raylawpc]

Roberto Duran, Tommy Hearns, John Mugabi....... And Sugar Ray Leonard, but he choked on Ray.

Actually, I thought you meant smaller men while Hagler was moving up. . . but be that as it may:

Hearns outweighed Hagler by 1/2 pounds and had at least three inches in height over Hagler ; Hagler only outweighed Duran by a pound and Magubi by two and one-half pounds. Leonard and Hearns were even at 160.

Shame on him for picking on all those poor little guys.

But what about Sibson, Obelmejias, Lee and Hamsho - who all outweighed Marvin?

[ringsider]

Actually, I thought you meant smaller men while Hagler was moving up. . . but be that as it may:

Hearns outweighed Hagler by 1/2 pounds and had at least three inches in height over Hagler ; Hagler only outweighed Duran by a pound and Magubi by two and one-half pounds. Leonard and Hearns were even at 160.

Then you are not very bright. Those guys moved up in weight. Duran was LW, Hearns and Ray were WW to LMW at most, and Mugabi was LMW. Hagler was a MW who came down to the 160 lb. limit.

We are not talking about weigh in day.....since you don't even understand that simple concept of boxing, then there is not point in further discussion.

Those other natural MW were medicore at best.

[raylawpc]

Actually, I thought you meant smaller men while Hagler was moving up. . . but be that as it may:

Hearns outweighed Hagler by 1/2 pounds and had at least three inches in height over Hagler ; Hagler only outweighed Duran by a pound and Magubi by two and one-half pounds. Leonard and Hearns were even at 160.

Then you are not very bright. Those guys moved up in weight. Duran was LW, Hearns and Ray were WW to LMW at most, and Mugabi was LMW. Hagler was a MW who came down to the 160 lb. limit.

We are not talking about weigh in day.....since you don't even understand that simple concept of boxing, then there is not point in further discussion.

Those other natural MW were medicore at best.

You are right. There isn't much point.

But let me ask you a question: When does a 159-pounder cease being a welterweight? or a 158-pounder cease being a lightweight? George Carpentier started his career as a flyweight. So . . . Jack Dempsey defended his title against a . . . flyweight? And James Toney is still a middleweight, right?

Nevermind, don't reply since I won't see it anyway. I love this new "ignore" function!!

[Ambling Alp]

That is a great question and it's doubtful that there is a perfect answer.
Obviously Carpentier wasn't a flyweight when he fought Dempsey. Most fighters in the lower weights do move up, often moving up several weight classes by the time they retire. They aren't forever the weight that they began their career at.

You just have to judge it on a case by case basis. Assuming that a guy isn't moving up way too much relative to his height and natural build, experience at the weight is probably the most important thing to consider.

For example, when Jose Napoles fought Monzon, he clearly wasn't a real middleweight. He had never fought a middleweight before. Therefore, it's not a big win for Monzon. However, Griffith and Benvenuti while not originally middleweights had been fighting middleweights by the time they fought Monzon. They were legitimate middleweights when Monzon fought them.

A big question that needs to be answered is how much experience has the fighter had at the new weight?

[raylawpc]

The answer may lie in whether the particular fighter can still make the weight, and perform at that weight. Napoles and Griffith are two good examples: When Napoles fought Monzon, Jose was clearly still a welterweight. Even though he was moving past his prime, he came back after the fight and fought at welterweight against top competition. When he lost to Charles, it wasn't due to his weight.

Griffith made the weight against Napoles, but it nearly killed him in the process. Even though he made the weight, I don't think you could legitmately call him a welterweight anymore.

Like it or not, Duran, Hearns, and Mugabi were legitmate middleweights when they fought Hagler. One can say that Duran and Hearns achieved their greatest success at lower weights and fought better at those lower weights (and I would have no argument with that), but its disingenuous to say that they weren't middleweights at that point.

[granberry]

"Like it or not, Duran, Hearns, and Mugabi were legitmate middleweights when they fought Hagler. "

Duran was a fat, old, out of shape lightweight.

Like it or not.

[Robinson]

Haglers biggest win was over a non MW.

Hearns first fight at MW was against Hagler.

[raylawpc]

Haglers biggest win was over a non MW.

Hearns first fight at MW was against Hagler.

And (substacting also his wins over Mugabi and Duran since they were just "small fry," too) that somehow nullifies his 59 wins over "legitimate" middleweights like Roldan, Hamsho, Minter, Antuofermo, Bobby Watts, undefeated Sugar Ray Seales (then twice more), Willie Monroe, Bennie Briscoe, Kevin Finnegan, undefeated Mike Colbert, undefeated Ray Phillips, undefeated Johnny Baldwin, a very tough Lamont Lovelady, etc.?

[granberry]

Why did Hagler fight Leonard the way he did?

Because he knew that as long as he lasted to the end of the (12-round "championship") fight

he would 'win' the 'decision.'

[kikibalt]

Haglers biggest win was over a non MW.

Hearns first fight at MW was against Hagler.

And (substacting also his wins over Mugabi and Duran since they were just "small fry," too) that somehow nullifies his 59 wins over "legitimate" middleweights like Roldan, Hamsho, Minter, Antuofermo, Bobby Watts, undefeated Sugar Ray Seales (then twice more), Willie Monroe, Bennie Briscoe, Kevin Finnegan, undefeated Mike Colbert, undefeated Ray Phillips, undefeated Johnny Baldwin, a very tough Lamont Lovelady, etc.?

Every well said, Tom...

[Robinson]

I said his biggest Win (Singular)
Not Wins (Plural)

His Biggest win, I think was over Hearns. A WW.

Yes, well done you listed some good wins. I simply said WIN>

[Goodnight, Irene]

I said his biggest Win (Singular)
Not Wins (Plural)

His Biggest win, I think was over Hearns. A WW.

Yes, well done you listed some good wins. I simply said WIN>

Be careful not to get too carried away with weightclasses, though, as many do. Hearns was arguably at his best as a Welter, though I would personally say he peaked as a Jr. Middle --- either way, that's a maximum of thirteen pounds (theoretically) or roughly six kilos, & quite possibly less --- for Hearns to, "bulk up" to. I would not tread so far as to say he was as strong a Middle as he was a Jr. Middle or Welter, but people get ludicrously hung-up on which division is a fighters, "natural class." Alp says Jose Napoles, "isn't a big win" for Carlos Monzon because the former was really a Welterweight. Jose Napoles!!! An extraordinary fighter, with silky skills & talent to burn, isn't a big win because he added five, six, seven kilos to his approximate 75kg frame? The hell he isn't. It detracts from the victory, yes, but there is a strong example of weight classification getting blown out of all proportion.

Hagler beat a great fighter, & Hearns' jump to Middleweight shouldn't detract MUCH from that.

[Robinson]

Then why do we have weight classes ?

Ill tell you why...because at that level weight DOES make a difference
and a few lbs can help out.

The win is awesome for Hagler. I think that brief fight like all was
supreme, and a huge Hagler win.

BUT the fact remains his best win was over a man who came up to his
weight. Just like Leonard came up to his weight.

Its not like Hagler ever dropped weight to meet these guys or
put on some to chase others down. He stayed at MW and met the
best there.

[Goodnight, Irene]

"Then why do we have weight classes..."

Because it makes a difference to the fighter, which is something I never contested (though the reason we have so many in todays fight game is purely for financial gain --- nothing to do with four pounds making or breaking certain fighters, be sure of that), my point was that it shouldn't massively detract from a bout, which, to be clear, wasn't what I accused you of. I was simply thinking out loud about how dramatic people get over this amount or that amount of weight.

[Robinson]

I dont...thats why I am a fan of the HW.

Whats a few kg's any how....

BUT...alot of people do like you said and its funny how its good for some
but not others.

I agree todays weight classes are crazy and way to hard to follow. But sadly its the sport we love.

Dont ask me to define them though...I have no idea what most weight classes are outside
the basic 8 and its jr allegiances.

[raylawpc]

I said his biggest Win (Singular)
Not Wins (Plural)

His Biggest win, I think was over Hearns. A WW.

Yes, well done you listed some good wins. I simply said WIN>

A 158-3/4 pound welterweight?

[Goodnight, Irene]

I take your point, Ray, but, as Alp correctly pointed out, it's difficult to give a set answer. Would you consider Ricardo Lopez a Jr. Welterweight if he jumped up to 140lbs & fought Tszyu in his first fight, years ago? Yes, that's dramatically different from Hearns fighting Hagler, but one thing they'd have in common is that it is/would be their first fight at that new weight, making it less likely they could be considered a genuine Jr Welter/Middleweight.

I take points from both sides on this issue, really. Duran had no business at Middle, though, he never was one.

[raylawpc]

Then why do we have weight classes ?

Ill tell you why...because at that level weight DOES make a difference
and a few lbs can help out.

The win is awesome for Hagler. I think that brief fight like all was
supreme, and a huge Hagler win.

BUT the fact remains his best win was over a man who came up to his
weight. Just like Leonard came up to his weight.

Its not like Hagler ever dropped weight to meet these guys or
put on some to chase others down. He stayed at MW and met the
best there.

So . . . Hagler should have challenged Hearns for Hearns' WBC light middleweight title? Hmmmm . . .

(It detracts from a great win in one of the greatest fights of all time because he didn't go down in weight?)